Work only 3 hours a day, but everyday (2016)
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However, creative stuff like programming doesn't tend to fix in such a neat box, and the preparation, or creative thinking which leads to elegant solutions to problems tends to benefit from spending time doing something else - your brain is still whirring on the problem whilst you are out walking, exercising, cooking etc.
If you add on the time spent working through problems, you'll probably come to the same conclusion that I have that I spend 24 hours a day thinking about the problems i'm tackling. I often come up with great solutions whilst i'm asleep, and bad nights sleep is often correlated with a gnarly problem i've still not worked out.
I personally don't get hung up on how much time I spend actually coding. Some days it's full on, other days I seem to achieve next to nothing, or if anything go backwards. I've never tried to average it out, but 2-4 hours of actual productive coding per day sounds about right.
And how many unproductive hours of work do you spend per day? I tend to fix my working hours (productive or not) to around 4 per day. When I tell fellow engineers about it, they think it’s unethical because my contract specifies 40h/week (I’m an employee). I couldn’t care less what the contract says about working hours.
Honest question, do you unilaterally ignore any other parts of the contract?
Some of my employers had flexible timekeeping, and then I would often work a bit over 40h/week so that I could take extra days off for extended weekend trips when I felt like it.
What (most) managers want is your output, irrespective of how long it will take, may be 12h or 3h.
One could argue, that while working 3h or 4h one should still be available to support, help, communicate, meet with, your team and stakeholders for the remaining hours of that contract.
I would not have an issue with less hours provided you don't ghost for the remaining hours, if one of your colleagues hits a block, or your manager gets hit with a shitstorm, then you need to have a communication line open (which should also not be 24 hours but for the hours in your contract).
And we wonder why employers want us back in the office. I mean come on.
One day, there are threads here saying $120k is considered underpaid for an entry level dev out of a bootcamp. The next day, we talk about how all the RTO companies are only doing it because managers want to feel productive. The day after that, there are threads of remote devs boasting they don't even consistently work 4 hours a day. And the day after a thread about how we're all going to unionize to protect our rights.
This is truly an interesting phenomenon. Either these anecdotes are just that, anecdotes and not representative of most people, or there's a huge misalignment between employer and employee expectations.
Edit: to be clear, I fully support the author of this blog post because he works 3 hours per day working for himself. More power to him. If you truly think you’re underpaid and overworked, do what the guy in this article is doing! Stop making excuses and become an entrepreneur. Work for yourself, set your own hours, no managers, and you’ll leverage the full earning potential of your skillset. No employment contracts to comply with!
Yes, because one can't work 4h tops while being in office... Truth is, they can't tell how much working hours this individual is putting. And maybe it's not that important.
Yes, we are underpaid. Just look at the bank balances of Apple, Google, and Microsoft. Software engineers aren't illiterate construction workers. We have the means to build and destroy tech companies that think they can do whatever they want.
I fear you may have a very skewed sense of a software engineer's place in the world.
The world's largest companies today were founded by software engineers. There's no inherent need for a designated "business" person within a tech company.
And we didn't even talk about FOSS and indie development which are both as big as big tech and driven exclusively by programmers.
I’m sure there are a handful of Zuckerberg type people (let’s be extravagant and say there at 10k such developer/entrepreneurs who have built unicorns by dint of their software skills) but the software engineering discipline is orders of magnitude bigger than 10k.
Edit - Since the original comment was focused on dollar value created by software engineers, we can discount much of FOSS where value has been captured by the likes of AWS and RedHat, not the FOSS community.
No. The amount they pay is a function of supply and demand of workers and the necessity of filling the position within the company.
> Software engineers aren't illiterate construction workers.
Construction workers have the ability to build and destroy buildings probably more easily than SWEs can build or destroy companies.
Just like a skyscraper is more than just concrete and steel, a software company is way more than just code.
And juniors are getting paid above 100k usd. Deal with it.
> Construction workers have the ability to build and destroy buildings probably more easily than SWEs can build or destroy companies.
Sure but they would go to jail. The programmers that destroyed companies by creating better open source alternatives not only didn't go to jail but managed to build multi-million dollar businesses. Which then becomes too big at some point and ready to be disrupted again.
I’m not sure what your point is.
Isn’t this a good thing? Lots of opportunity for you to leverage the full value of your skillset to maximize your earning potential by starting a company, being your own boss, set your own work schedule, etc.
(Re: junior devs, $120k is fine for junior, I was recollecting a thread with people saying $160k is more appropriate for juniors which IMO is absurd.)
Throughout most of the world (including most of the US), $120k a year is enough to buy and fully pay off a mortgage on a house in a city in < 10 years - even after tax.
Your edit makes more sense than the original post, which sounds like you are resentful because many SWEs know their worth.
I worked less than anyone else on my team at my last job. I was probably doing "active" work for 3-4 hours a day -- plus meetings. I was also a senior engineer with good performance reviews, and contributed more to the codebases of my team's major projects than anyone else on the team.
It's important to note that I was also often thinking about work when taking my dog for 45-minute middway walks, cooking lunch for myself and my wife, etc.
But you don't tell your management and trust your fellow engineers not to rat you out (or they are not your colleagues, just people on HN?)? Because this sounds more like quiet quitting. Or you over-perform even though you work 50%?
I've worked with people with very strict working hours who will never respond to an email outside of those hours, and other people who would be late into the office most days, but would respond to a support problem at 11pm at the weekend. We're not all the same, and there is strength in depth.
There are other times when it's a bit more greenfield and just fiddling around gets your ideas straight and you can be productive even with interruptions.
We tend to work with a backlog of simpler and harder problems, and part of the skill of prioritisation is deciding what mood you are in, and being realistic about how much time you have to focus on a problem, and hence what sort of problem or feature is worth tackling that day.
yes indeed. The finest dev work I've done in my life was accomplished entirely in my head while cleaning hotel rooms.
I do agree with the general notion that working 8 productive hours everyday does not work long-term. But assuming that you could work three hours completely productively every day, that does not imply that the remaining five hours would be completely worthless. In a normal work week, I am sure you could get more out of the remaining 5x5 = 25 hours than the six hours at the weekend.
Especially the advice that you must stop after three hours even when you're "in the zone" seems hard to justify. Instead of insisting on a hard and fixed number of hours everyday, I think it's much more fruitful to follow a flexible time model (which is actually implemented in many work places today): if you happen to have a very productive day, just keep milking it and put in some extra time. In return, you can take that time off on some other day.
I think the appeal of "3 hours a day" is that the number is so extremely low compared to the number 8. But I don't think that it will work. Flexible time models also give you a pretty good work-life balance, and they're more realistic. I mean, for one, you won't find an employer who will follow this 3-hour model, so we're only talking about self-employed workers. But even then, it has to be a pure coding or other desk job - if it involved e.g. any meetings at all, how are you going to fit that into your small time budget of three hours only per day?
Yeah, like I said, I don't think that this model is going to work in most situations and for most people.
Even assuming "you can only do 3 productive hours a day" (which is a lie with appeal to authority mixed in. "Look that guy that made shitty web framework did it, it must be good!"), that does apply only to coding, there is more to being developer than just programming
> Especially the advice that you must stop after three hours even when you're "in the zone" seems hard to justify. Instead of insisting on a hard and fixed number of hours everyday, I think it's much more fruitful to follow a flexible time model (which is actually implemented in many work places today): if you happen to have a very productive day, just keep milking it and put in some extra time. In return, you can take that time off on some other day.
I'd even call that advice outright idiotic. You wasted time to get in the zone only to throw it away
I feel like any recommendation of "do X hours of this" is a delusion. We're not robots, we have better or worse days and more or less engaging tasks. If task is "here are API docs, make a bunch of code and tests for it" I can do it whole day without much slowdown.
The longest lasting and easiest to extend software I’ve cobbled together (and some still running in production after 20yrs) were me designing for 18+hrs straight, share general idea w/team, then furiously writing for 36hrs. Those spurts were always the most productive and setup future work to be easy to add on.
> Yes, I have to do everything, including UI&UX design, marketing, supporting and so on, since I’m a solo person. The coding might be around 50% of the work time.
I have been struggling with organising my time as well, and I found that fewer hours every day means I only focus on what's important, and I can achieve a state of flow, with a good routine, every day. I do 4 hours of 95% effort, no distraction deep work, and then I need to recharge the batteries.
It all depends if you're doing creative programming work, or menial one. I'm building a business, and the software underneath it. It's not too dissimilar to sculpting or painting: bursts of intense work, with tons of space necessary to digest, plan the next step or just daydream and think out of the box around hard problems. Some people thrive in a brute force approach to creativity (work until the problem is solved), for others intuition is the driving force (think until the problem is solved)
The issue is that as a society and the corporate machine is tuned for the brute force approach. We celebrate the 100 hours/wk Musks and Carmacks, and forget that their physiology, and more importantly, environment is much different than most of us.
How many hours do you think Musk spends thinking about paying rent, cost of living, standups with a boring boss, endless Zoom calls that cut into his focus? How many hours does John Carmack spend, bored to tears, plugging yet another Slack library into their CRUD app for a boss than makes 500x his salary?
How many hours of "brainstorming", daydreaming and reading up on exciting tech do they count as work? How many hours of daydreaming and "digesting" can you do sat in an open space cubicle?
(Sorry, started talking about creative force, and went on a societal critique.)
To be honest I rarely have more than 3-4 productive hours in a day, where I actually get hard stuff done. Sure on special days I can be productive 8+ hours; but those are rare.
Highly job and person dependent I suspect.
J. Blow has much to say against this, but i've never really heard him engage with this integral of productivity given habituation. I guess his reply to my argument above would be, "sure, but are you actually working these hours? if no, it's just rationalisation for lazyness"
And i'd suppose, in most cases, it is.
Of course this is related to creative work, like coding, writing, design etc.
Less creative work like kitchen work, or manual labour in general I can do until my body gives up (16h shifts used to be no problem but I'm getting older...)
re: author of article: I wonder if he does technology learning activities outside his 3 hour work window?
Some days, it’s two hours; some days, 12. If I were to average, it probably comes to around four or five hours (out-of-the-arse guess).
WFM. YMMV.
Friday was a 12-hour, OCD day. I went the entire day without eating or drinking, as I was obsessing over finishing a dashboard app I wrote.
At the end of the day, I had a combined blood sugar crash/dehydration event.
FUN
I don't recommend it.
I usually drink a bit less than a gallon of water per day. I keep an insulated mug at my desk, and make sure it's always at least half-full of water.
I can really recommend that book, I haven’t adopted to many of the practices that he recommends but I am working on it and it already had a profound impact on the quality of my work but also my general mental health.
If we have to compete with AI, then we might get more pressure to spend more time doing deep work.
At present the idea of working 3 focused hours per day doesn't seem outrageous, but back in 2014 this would have been quite progressive.
For example 4 hours x 31 days = 124 hours per month.
Now compare this to a corporate job where it feels like you are setup to fail. Every day 3-6 hours of meetings / conference calls. Constant flood of emails that are often irrelevant or unclear, but you need to stay focused reading them because something can be relevant to what you are doing (often the part important to you is written in an ambigious way, since they dont know what to do with your case - so you have to ask for clarifications - more meetings). Constant context switching due to having to drop what you are doing to do something else. Trying to do you your actual work.. often after hours, when they still call you. Or you cant even do your job, because someone who is supposed to provide something for you didnt do it on time, so you are waiting. (They update that it will be there the next day, on next day -> they again say next day and so on).
10 hours per day x 21 days = 210 hours
Of course corporate work is safer. Somehow the corporation exists and moves forward.
That's why it is so impressive that the author can be their own boss. Could even make some contracting work from time to time.
> I even disable all notifications on my iPhone before I go to bed, so I don’t see them before I start working next day.
An idea from the creative artist world is to consciously divide the tasks into creative and other. Game plan goes:
Wake up. Do not read email. Or slack. Breakfast then walk, thinking about things.
Write down the ideas you want to come back to. Then lunch.
Then take a look at email, slack. Do the traditional fire fighting while trying to write code simultaneously game until the evening.
Spend the evening socialising, reading, generally taking in new information, probably in the hope that it gets sorted while you sleep and takes your mind off the fires of the afternoon.
That's not a path to three hours a day of work. But it probably is a way to make progress on hard problems despite a software dev day job that applies pressure against that, via cultural firefighting.
I do think you could then have another 2-3 hour block of something completely unrelated every day and be very productive doing that as well.
It's the opposite for me. I work productively only when the duration is open-ended. That is, at night, when I can stay up as long as I feel comfortable or over the weekend when none bothers me.
A slightest deadline in sight or an upcoming meeting break the flow.
For creative stuff, I do the same, but I am also trying to reduce the number of hours at work.
When being in the flow, I just let it continue without breaking.
I can't imagine a solo indie dev has those meetings though. So their definition of work is somewhat different.
Also I guess the three hours is a consequence of them having a successful product, which is somewhat akin to winning the lottery. I can't imagine if they were struggling to make rent they'd down tools at 11am for an afternoon of reading and walking.
Here's a more interesting example, which at least shows that it doesn't apply to a much larger category of jobs than genius composer: If Amazon warehouse workers'd follow such advice, much fewer packages would get shipped.
How so? Amazon is known for tracking performance very strictly. They will find the sweet spot for performance in case they see an opportunity.