Hacker News Reader

Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

It's already easy to buy the stuff that works. You just have to go up to the counter and ask. You have to show ID, just like you do for liquor (and, because purchases of psuedoephedrine are rate-limited, they're going to log your purchase). You'll need to get over that, because I don't think the rate limit is going anywhere: psuedoephedrine essentially is methamphetamine, and it's the worst conceivable kind: the kind that you obtain by constructing horrible hazmat labs in garages, mobile homes, and apartments.

View on HN

It's not easy in my state. It goes like this: go to inside counter of an open pharmacy (can't use drive thru for it). Wait, for a long time (aren't all of your pharmacies massively overloaded with 30-60m lines? ours are). Ask for a 96-count sudafed (generic or regular) and hope they have it. If they don't, get 48. If they don't, get 24 (forget that I need 2 tabs every day as prescribed by my doctor -- yet can only buy 1 box/month no matter how many are in it so if I can't get 96 I can't get enough). Provide ID. Hope that the state verification system is up, because in my state it goes down ALL THE TIME and so frequently the process stops here only to be retried at some random future time/place. Do this each and every month as many times as it takes.

Forget that meth use has gone up in the face of all this insanity. It now flows in massively from Mexico. IOW, this isn't stopping meth use. Also forget that for years people like me were told that if we didn't like it we should use the drug that just now got officially tagged as having never worked (duh, we all knew this within one day of the first time sudafed went behind the counter).

Sudafed is one of the hardest to acquire substances out there, and the burden falls on those who really need it. I'm glad it's easy for you, but it's not for many many people.

Man, your state sounds horrible. Only problem with pharmacies around here is they're always out of adderall.

I have talked about this before, but it really all depends on 1) the area you're in and 2) what kinds of class signals you emanate. I'm a well-dressed white guy in Seattle, and I've never had any trouble buying pseudoephedrine: they just check my ID and then give it to me. Meanwhile I have relatives in a depressed part of the midwest who, with the best love in the world, are visibly lower-class, and they say they get hassled and roadblocked constantly trying to get it. It's pretty naked classism and rather fucked up.

But if they have the active ingredient to make meth, there's no need for adderall. Meth is adderall (amphetamine) with a methyl group added to make it cross the blood brain barrier easier/faster. Once metabolised by the body it becomes the same amphetamine as your addys. There are a surprising number of people who dose meth like adderall to treat their adhd symptoms and you'd never know if they didn't tell you.

I'm not advocating anyone do meth, the above was said mainly to crack and easy joke about the pharmacy being out of legal speed but in stock on the stuff to make illegal speed

I asked my doctor to write me a prescription for pseudoephedrine once. They rip open the box (before you get to the pharmacy), dump the pills into a standard pill bottle, and then charge you $5 instead of $11. No ID / signing the ledger required!

But yeah, the whole process is very annoying. I think this news about the ineffective stuff being withdrawn is good for us; with more demand for the stuff that works, pharmacies will have to hire more people to comply with the regulations, driving profits down, and finally a lobbyist that matters will be in front of Congress.

Do you usually take decongestants for 12+ days? I usually just take them a couple of times on the worst days of a cold, maybe 5 pills every time I get sick.

And pharmacies in my city don’t usually have more than 1 or 2 people ahead of me in line.

All males in my family over produce muccous and have perpetual post-nasal drip leading to a frequent cough that is slowdy taking away our voices. Sudafed access would be great!

I've gone to an ENT to try to reduce things but no luck so far.

You could try getting an ADHD diagnosis, adderall is a fantastic decongestant.

(Joking)

i was going to say, what planet are you on where you have to wait 60 minutes at the pharmacy, and what you need more than 24 pills for?

you're either Jesse Pinkman or sicker than a vintage Jimi Hendrix lick

Love that, I’m going to steal it

Honestly depends where you are. I lived in a town of around 100k at one point with probably 250k in the surrounding area and we were severely under pharmacied for how much demand there was. There was always a 20+ minute line. CVS, Walgreens, Walmart, didn't matter.

Now I live in a large metro area and I almost never wait.;

I never had it that bad, but not having the right stock is an obnoxious and frequent occurrence. If you need it that bad and that consistently, you should definitely have your doctor write a prescription and make the pharmacist do the work to fill it properly.

Wild. I just walk up to the pharmacy inside my grocery store. Adds about 5 minutes to my shopping trip.

> Sudafed is one of the hardest to acquire substances out there

What!?? Regardless, this tip might be helpful: you can get it online with a script without insurance for $2.40 [1]

If you need a script you can probably get it from Amazon Clinic Dr chat too for $33 without insurance all via messages only. [2]

For the record I've never used it and haven't considered it much beyond my recent amazement how theres a 'startup' for every prescription med now (and Amazon is entering the market strong too).

[1] https://pharmacy.amazon.com/Pseudoephedrine-Oral-Tablet/dp/B...?

[2] https://clinic.amazon.com/cough-cold-flu-treatment/dp/B0CK3K...

> You just have to go up to the counter and ask. You have to show ID, just like you do for liquor (and, because purchases of psuedoephedrine are rate-limited, they're going to log your purchase)

Up to the counter and ask...when the counter is open that is increasingly a problem as pharmacies close and hours are limited (the two nearest me close at 6pm, right at the end of working hours).

Show ID...that the pharmacist will accept (not all of us drive or have a driver license).

Rate-limited...at a quantity too low for a household that has a sinus infection running around.

So, no, it's not already easy. Canadians can go into a Costco and buy as much as they like and apparently it's not an entire nation of Walter Whites up there so what makes us so special?

> Rate-limited...at a quantity too low for a household that has a sinus infection running around.

I don't think so. I actually buy this stuff for allergies because it's the only thing that works for me and doesn't disrupt my sleep one way or another.

I get 60 pills which are 2x what's in cold medication. I get that it's annoying but for an illness it's more than enough for a large family.

If you have two people who take it everyday for allergies, you've already hit your limit with 60 pills.

And yet still had enough for both of you, and that's if you both don't purchase the meds, and go to a 2nd store, or go to the same store the following day or week. 9 GRAMS every 30 days. The 20cnt box of Sudafed is 120mg pills, so 2400mg total, or 2.4 grams per box, and that's not all phseduo, which I think the 9 grams is only concerned with. So you'd have to look at how much of that 120mg is the limited material if that's the case. Assuming they mean the entire pill. That means every 30 days, each adult in your family can buy 3 boxes each (3.75 technically but I rounded down) from the same store. So 60 bills, to cover 30 days, per adult. How is that not enough for your daily single dose? 3 boxes just you can buy covers 2 adults taking it daily. This is where all the complaints that it's too restrictive fall apart. When you do the math, there is room to stockpile and STILL take it daily...

The rate limiting is just that, limiting the rate, making it more effort to obtain mass amounts so it's more time consuming to gather up for abuse. The goal was never to stop meth production with the limit, it was to seriously slow it down, which it has, which equates to less of it overall on the streets. And the limits as we just calculated are more than a single person should need if taking the pill daily, which is the max allowed dose. So, it's not an issue, and we just proved it with math, now excuse me I have to go beat my own ass for saying we just proved something with math.

> This is where all the complaints that it's too restrictive fall apart. When you do the math, there is room to stockpile and STILL take it daily...

And yet innocent people still get arrested and have their lives upended and/or ruined because they accidentally violated pseudoephedrine regulations.

When that's happening, it's because the regulations are too restrictive.

> And yet innocent people still get arrested and have their lives upended and/or ruined because they accidentally violated pseudoephedrine regulations.

I'm curious to know if you have any examples of this because I can't find one.

This was posted on this submission: https://reason.com/2009/09/30/put-down-the-cold-pills-grandm...

More: https://reason.com/2009/09/28/hoosier-grandmother-arrested-f...

Those two links are the same one person.

I know. The second link contains more info than the first.

It seems that the major pharmacy chains keep records and will refuse to sell it to you before you reach the limit that would trigger a misdemeanor.

But, if a law is never enforced, it should be deleted. Otherwise, one day you decide you don't like someone's political views, and suddenly they are the first case of purchasing 9.1g of Sudafed in a single 30 day period. Dead code is just waiting to be a security incident.

Again, I'm not advocating for the limits. I'm saying it would be very hard to exceed the limits as they exist now.

Step 1, get married. Step 2, have kids. Put your allergy status on your dating profile, I guess.

True enough, but you can also get a prescription for this if you don't want to do OTC/BTC.

At a decongestant dosage this will last two people two months. And of course if the second person is 18+ they can also buy that.

I'm not advocating that the limits are good, just that a single person is very unlikely to hit them for allergies, periodic illness or asthma (it's also available as a prescription for allergies)

The legal limit is 9g per 30 days, and the recommended dose is 7.2g per 30 days (=240mg/day). So if both parents take the maximum dose, there is none for the kids. (3 people would need 21.6g; both parents together could buy 18g.)

Personally, I don't take it at night, so I wouldn't run into this problem, but the existence of 240mg "24 hour extended release" tablets leads me to believe that someone else must. (I'm a little jealous that they can sleep with it in their system. It would be nice!)

> the recommended dose is 7.2g per 30 days (=240mg/day)

30-60mg, and this is not recommended for more than 7 days for sinuses

It's actually a fairly significant dose already.

> Up to the counter and ask...when the counter is open that is increasingly a problem as pharmacies close and hours are limited (the two nearest me close at 6pm, right at the end of working hours).

Probably covered by the FMLA or any boss who isn't an asshole, or since it's OTC, have someone grab it for you, or get it on your lunch, or task rabbit it.

> Show ID...that the pharmacist will accept (not all of us drive or have a driver license).

If you don't have an acceptable state ID the pharmacy not giving you cold meds is the least of your hurdles. Go get an ID, you need it for anything offical that requires proof of ID. This isn't the medication rate limits fault.

> Rate-limited...at a quantity too low for a household that has a sinus infection running around.

My state allows 9 grams every 30 days, which should be plenty. BUT, that rate limiting is not checked/enforced statewide, meaning you can go to one store and get some and down the road to the next store and get some, and so can the other adults in your household. The limits are plenty for intended use. Only people wanting meth manufacture amounts complain that 9 grams in 30 days per store is too low.

> So, no, it's not already easy. Canadians can go into a Costco and buy as much as they like and apparently it's not an entire nation of Walter Whites up there so what makes us so special?

It's pretty easy. When you have an ID like every adult should have, and a normal size household, stepping out at lunch or running to a late night rx place and asking for a box or two of sudafed is literally as easy as buying booze or smokes, show your id, pay the person, leave. And btw if you checkout bluelight or /r/meth, our neighbors up north are having a field day cooking meth a lot of which is coming across the border into the US. No criminal enterprise is going to have unrestricted access to the key ingredient for a super addictive drug and pass on utilizing it.

There are regulations that exist specifically to stop people from buying pseudoephedrine for someone else, anti-"smurfing" laws. Some places make you sign a government waiver that confirms you're only buying Sudafed for yourself, a family member, or someone in your household. There are limits on how much a single person and household can buy or have, as well.

It's not something you can use Task Rabbit for, and anyone that does pick it up for someone else because an app told them to is potentially opening themselves up to criminal liability.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38007117

I really doubt you could buy pseudoephedrine via taskrabbit, but then again I've never tried it.

Task rabbit, uber eats, door dash, all have offerings where a person will do your shopping on your behalf. It includes over the counter meds afaik.

> What health and wellness items can I order for same-day delivery? We've got you covered on health and wellness items including over-the-counter medicine, vitamins, first aid items, family planning items, feminine care products, home diagnostic tests, and more to help you feel better in a pinch.

https://www.doordash.com/p/medicine-delivery

Just checked and you totally can buy psuedo via door dash ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://imgur.com/Juyuvme

Interesting, when I search on DoorDash everything that comes up is phenylephrine. No pseudoephedrine to be found.

What state do you live in?

Not today, officer ╭∩╮（︶_︶）╭∩╮

The only reason I have a state ID is for buying Sudafed. I was tired of "my system won't scan your passport".

I disagree with the person that replied to you, you really don't need a state ID for anything.

Well if you have a passport, which is federal ID, of course you don't need a state ID. But there are plenty of people who have criminal records that would prevent them from getting a passport, as well as plenty of people who just don't want the couple week process and complexity of getting a passport, or don't want to carry a bulky book when all they need is 1 page from it, and who have no intention of leaving the country. State IDs are the default for a ton of people who can't or don't drive.

> or don't want to carry a bulky book when all they need is 1 page from it, and who have no intention of leaving the country

US passports are available in card form for exactly these people. They work the same as a book-style passport within the US, but can't be consistently used for international travel.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-pa...

TIL, thanks!

> Rate-limited...at a quantity too low for a household that has a sinus infection running around.

I know all of this is annoying (and I agree) but many people don't think to stock up when they are healthy. You should! You can avoid a lot of problems with a little preparation ahead of time.

For the first time in my adult life I ran dry of Fisherman's Friend and DXM while dealing with a flu just this last week. Amazingly Amazon Prime will overnight you DXM if you enter your driver's license info at check-out.

> Show ID... [...] (not all of us drive or have a driver license).

Your objection is irrelevant. States give photo IDs which are just like drivers licenses except they don't say "drivers license", you don't have to pass any driving tests, and you can't drive with them. Otherwise they look and work the same and every employee trained to look at drivers licenses will accept them without hesitation.

It's a minor annoyance but I only need to buy a pack once a year, so the extra time required isn't bad. The downside is that you have to go when the pharmacy is open and in some places those hours can be quite limited, especially for those who work standard business hours. If you need to buy it regularly, it might become a hassle.

When I bought it, my receipt showed the total amount I had bought in the past thirty days (which was also the amount I was buying that day). For my use, the monthly allowed amount is far far beyond what I'd ever use but I could see some people with really bad sinus issues needing more. Perhaps in that situation a doctor could write them a prescription for more than the standard limit.

I think he might have meant this : "Codeine is a widely used analgesic, that is available for sale in pharmacies over the counter (OTC) in a number of countries including the UK, South Africa, Ireland, France and Australia." [0]

[0] https://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/25048/#:~:text=Codeine%20is%2....

Codeine treats coughs.

Sudafed treats sinus congestion.

Different drugs with different uses.

Codeine is great, throw a lil bit in some sprite and hang out.

You'd be missing the promethazine.

In my experience (perhaps my state), a pharmacy will now only dispense pseudoephedrine to you they "know you." As in, you regularly fill other medications at that pharmacy.

If you don't take other medications? I don't know, I assume you're fucked.

No pharmacy I have ever bought Sudafed at "knew me". I don't take any other medication. When I want Sudafed, I just go buy it.

I'm never giving up on this as an issue. You don't just have to go up to the counter and ask and wait behind all of the people getting prescriptions filled- you get rate limited, never mind if you are buying it for a whole family, never mind if your previous supply was destroyed. I almost wish it were illegal, as black markets would make it easier to buy.

You can usually get it via personal shopping services. When I had a cold and a passport (and Walgreens/CVS’ systems could only deal with state IDs) I was able to get some by using Postmates.

I guess some people will still (try to) make it themselves, but last time it came up here someone posted about how mass production has just moved on to some other synthesis that isn't dependent on buying a precursor in small retail quantities:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37499106

Again: the issue isn't that you can't mass-produce methamphetamine without pseudoephedrine; at scale, it's presumably far, far easier to produce it without using pseudoephedrine as a precursor. The issue is that pseudoephedrine-based meth production is a particularly damaging kind of production, in the sense of burning down buildings, causing distinctive kinds of crime, and producing an even more dangerous product.

It is far far far easier, less hazardous, and less violent when methamphetamine is just made at an appropriate factory. But this simple approach is incompatible with the self-perpetuating authoritarian impulses of law makers and law enforcement.

Is there reason to believe that restriction on pseudoephedrine is having a larger effect on shake and bake production than the relative cost? I'm not really paying a lot of attention to the issue, I think I bought one small package of pseudoephedrine in the last 5 years and the biggest issue I had is that the pharmacy tech didn't assume that I meant generic when I said I wanted the cheapest one.

In California, the rate-limit for purchasing pseudoephedrine is insufficient for allergy sufferers. They end up having to go out of their way to stock up during the off-season.

It’s not an appropriate treatment for allergies though.

Are people taking it daily for a season rather than using a medication indicated for longer term use?

It’s the only thing that reliably works after living in Texas for a lifetime. That and Benadryl.

The real pro tip is that the four hour doses are just enough to deal with an exposure event and reduce the side effects to a minimum.

Enantomeric imported Mexican meth goes for $40 a gram. No way you can buy pseudoephedrine and shake’n’bake for less. You have to buy expensive lithium batteries and cold packs.

> You'll need to get over that

I'm going to continue bitching about it, thanks.

Enough people pointing of the obvious stupidity of this kind of insipid nanny bullshit (that everyone knew would not solve the problem being address, and said so at the time) might make the next nanny idiot think twice.

And if it doesn't, then they can take the criticism anyway, because they deserve the grief. No, good intentions don't make it OK when you're talking public policy.

This isn't a very constructive response. OP wants it to be easier to buy decongestants, as do I.

It's already easy to buy this thing. Show your papers.

Yeah, Oregon still requires a prescription for pseudoephedrine. And it's infuriating.

You haven't needed a prescription to purchase products with pseudoephedrine in them in Oregon since January 1, 2022.

So they decriminalized meth in 2020 but it took them another two years to roll back this mess?

Oregon leading the way, as usual.

>This is fearmongering and sensationalism.[0]

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38008005

They literally decriminalized the possession of meth. Not. Single word of what I said was inaccurate in any way.

Inaccuracy is not a prerequisite for fearmongering or sensationalism.

Fascinating. That is not a well-known fact as my neighbors were just complaining about this a couple weeks ago. I wonder whether our local pharmacy is setup to handle those requests.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com