The risk of RISC-V: What's going on at SiFive?
morethanmoore.substack.com
morethanmoore.substack.com
A former company I worked at about 6 years ago talked to SiFive about a partnership. I'm not sure why the deal fell apart but I was never sure what SiFive's business model was. It seemed to be a lot of different things.
They had the cores that you could license but then they also made chips like an SoC similar to to the Broadcom chips on Raspberry Pi systems.
In August 2020, SiFive bought Open Silicon.
Open Silicon was a design services company started by former Intel people. We hear a lot about Intel wanted to be a foundry like TSMC for external customers. A lot of the design services is physical design (synthesis, place and route, integrating together third party IP like PCIE, DDR, fabrics, controller IP) Intel tries to be a foundry about every 10 years then stops. Either their internal volume gets too high to handle external customers or they don't get enough external customers.
SiFive then rebranded the Open Silicon team as OpenFive. I thought they were going to do design services for external customers integrating together their internal RISC-V cores.
In September 2022, SiFive sold the OpenFive group to Alphawave. I assume that the design services stuff didn't go well. Most of the companies I know that are using RISC-V are big companies that don't really go to a third party design services company. I'm going to guess that the VC's didn't like the cash burning and lack of revenue and sold OpenFive but now who knows what will happen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-Silicon
https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/alphawave-acquire...
Big doubt that deal was in the best interest of SiFive, maybe thats why he isnt CEO anymore.
My take on the SiFive / OpenSilicon venture was they initially thought they (SiFive) initially thought they were going to make their money with the Core Designer and they wanted customers to be able to push a button and have designs move from the core designer (Rocket++) to verilog to OpenSilicon who would do all the bits you have to do to turn a verilog design into actual chips. But when the core designer strategy was de-emphasized, OpenSilicon was an expensive investment that didn't make a lot of revenue, so they needed to get rid of it if there was any hope to be acquired.
I was just a peon and had no contact with the management team, so this is all just a guess on my part.
1. The variable length instructions (currently 16 bit or 32 bit but 48 bit on the horizon) complicate instruction fetch and decode and in particular this is a problem for high performance RISC-V implementations.
2. The C extension uses 75% of the 32-bit opcode space, this can be put to better use.
They're saying the benefits from the C extension don't outweigh the costs. They're also saying that if you move forward with the C extension in RVA23 now there's no real backing out of it. As the software ecosystem develops removing it once it's baked in just won't be possible. However adding it back in later is more feasible.
SiFive strongly disagree. They believe the C extension is worth the cost and that it doesn't prevent you from building high-performance cores. They also say that there's lots of implementations with C in already, so backing out of it now disadvantages those implementations.
It could end up in being the first major fragmentation in the eco-system Qualcomm go one way and SiFive the other (other companies also sit on one side or the other of this debate but Qualcomm and SiFive are driving it). Indeed the latest proposal from Krste is to do just that with a new 'RVH23' profile..
I wonder how much this development has been driving SiFive's thinking here? Clearly they are under pressure to deliver to their investors so you can see why they want to keep things as they are rather than consider a big change. Good for SiFive, but good for the long-term RISC-V ecosystem?
Edit: If you want the details check out the publicly readable tech-profiles list: https://lists.riscv.org/g/tech-profiles/messages they've got recordings of the last two meetings that discussed the issue and presentations, all available via that message archive.
It would seem to take RISC-V closer to AArch64 in approach?
Qualcomm's proposal is all instructions are aligned to their size. Initially that means everything is a 32-bit instruction, now with a lot more green-field encoding space to play with (so less need to have larger instructions). 64-bit instructions would be introduced (aligned on a 64-bit boundary) when needed with the expectation they'd be used for rare operations and 48-bit instructions wouldn't happen.
The SiFive (and original RISC-V architects view) is RISC-V is meant to be a variable length instruction set and a mix of 16/32/48 provides better static code size along with better dynamic code size meaning smaller icaches needed, smaller buffers in fetch units etc.
Interesting that the architecture that was meant to be a 'purer' RISC implementation than ARM is pushing towards the more CISC style variable length instructions. In a sense Qualcomm are trying to keep it closer to the RISC ideal!
What does 'rare' mean here, does it mean rare in execution, or rarely appears in code? (The difference being that something might only appear once in your code but be part of your hot loop so be executed any number of times)
If they are rare in execution, what is their value over composing them of 32-bit instructions, where the (rare) overhead of doing so would be typically a amortised away?
(The only thing I can think of that 64 bit instruction seem suited to is some kind of internal CPU management instructions, but context switches etc. are relatively rare & very expensive anyway so... I don't know)
> There are several 48-bit instruction possibilities.
> 1. PC-relative long jump
> 2. GP-relative addressing to support large small data area, effectively giving GP-relative access to entire data address space of most programs
> 3. Load upper 32-bits of 64-bit constants or addresses
> 4. Or lower 32-bits of 64-bit constants or addresses
> 5. And with 32-bit mask
> 6. More effective ins/ext of 64-bit bit fields
Another thing thats offten discussed is moving the vtype and setvl into each vector instructions, I'm not sure if that requries 48 or 64 bit instructions.
> 1. PC-relative long jump
My understanding is that these are rare
> 2. GP-relative addressing to support large small data area, effectively giving GP-relative access to entire data address space of most programs
What is 'GP' here? but "...access to entire data address space of most programs" In this case you are just going to be bouncing all over the address space, substantially missing any level of cache much of the time, surely?. Maybe you get a little extra code density but you aren't going to get any extra speed to speak of.
> 3. Load upper 32-bits of 64-bit constants or addresses
> 4. Or lower 32-bits of 64-bit constants or addresses
> 5. And with 32-bit mask
Well yeah, but how common is this? I understand the alpha architecture team looked at this and found it uncommon which is why they were okay with less-than-32-bit constants. If it really speeded things up you might build a specific cache to store constants (a kind of larger, stupider, register set). It would seem a simpler solution.
I'm not sure what you mean with 6, and I'm not familiar with vtype/setvl
Depends on how many bits you had to start with. On Power ISA they aren't common either, but when they happen you need up to seven instructions (lis, ori, rldicl, oris, ori, then for branches mtctr/b(c)ctr) to specify the new address or larger value. Most other RISCs are similar when full 64-bit values must be specified. This is a significant savings.
Often one vsetvl stays valid for multiple/most/all instructions, but sometimes there's a need to toggle it for a single instruction and then toggle it back. With 48-bit or 64-bit instructions, such temporary changes could be encoded in the operation instruction itself.
Additionally, masked instructions always mask by v0, which could be expanded to allow any register (and perhaps built-in negation) by more instruction bits too.
You could have a lot more registers.
The first example, I'm not sure you'd want a full 64bit encoding space. You still aren't going to be able to load a 64bit immediate directly so I'd rather see an instruction that uses the next instruction as the immediate. But then 50% of the time you're still going to be padding this to 64bit alignment, so it's unclear to me that this is a benefit over 2 lots of the same but with 32bit immediates.
The second option is interesting. But if you've got 256 addressable registers say, what use are the 32 and 16 bit instructions that can only address a tiny proportion of those registers.
On the flip side, the ability to have more registers is very good for SIMD/GPU applications.
But if you have a processor that also uses 16 bit instructions those extra registers become unusable. Thumb can't encode all registers in all instructions so you have the high registers that are significantly less useful than the low registers.
X86 is the same, never really done 64bit ASM so I don't know if they improved that.
So then you may aswell just divide up the registers so you've got 16 general purpose registers and 16 registers for simd or whatever.
I suppose the os could reserve registers for itself to save swapping in and out quite so often.
Register windows for applications/functions/threads.
Or maybe something radically different, like get rid of the stack, and treat them conceptually like a list?
Very revealing, thanks, this had never occurred to me
https://www.talospace.com/2021/04/prefixed-instructions-and-...
The initial idea of RISC-V was pretty much, a variable length RISC isa, but sane and easy to decode. That is not the x86, "we need to add yet another prefix".
The compressed 'C' extention is designed to re-use a lot of the existing decode infrastructure. On RV32 the C instructions are a strict subset of the full length instructions, so at least on RV32 it is very light weight, and it adds barely any logic to a core. It's almost always worth it to turn on C extensions versus making the cache bigger or trying to speed up main memory.
In my experience I-cache pressure is real, especially on lightweight implementations that don't have multiple levels of cache hierarchy and huge amounts of associativity to reduce the impact of an instruction cache miss.
I have played with both C and non-C variants, and also played with compiler tuning that saves code size versus 'performance' (which includes loop unrolling and thus more I cache misses). Generally smaller code size is better for power and system complexity, while keeping performance at par. Of course if you aren't as restricted on power or complexity (as is the case on a high end CPU), the calculus is different.
This kind of simplicity to me embodies the heart of RISC. If your CPU is hitting cache lines more often, you don't have to speculate as deep, don't have to re-order as much, thus less logic, less complexity, less power, higher clock rates and fewer side channels.
On the other hand, I suppose if you are already committed to deep speculation and out of order, compressed instructions might extract a disproportionate cost, maybe less so in decode and more so in precise exception handling and in tricks like register renaming.
Yeah I'd tend to agree, in particular x86 variable length encoding is a lot more complex than the RISC-V encoding!
What I'm really getting at is CISC and RISC aren't well-defined things and it's interesting seeing how the design of RISC-V is getting pulled in different directions.
> so at least on RV32 it is very light weight, and it adds barely any logic to a core. It's almost always worth it to turn on C extensions versus making the cache bigger or trying to speed up main memory.
Definitely, and the Qualcomm proposals are that things should stay that way for RV32/low end in general. It's high-end RV64 they care about.
> On the other hand, I suppose if you are already committed to deep speculation and out of order, compressed instructions might extract a disproportionate cost, maybe less so in decode and more so in precise exception handling and in tricks like register renaming.
This is the root of it. It's easy enough to do a study demonstrating changes in static code size, also easy enough to build a low-end RISC-V processor and examine the trade-offs. It's all a lot more complex at the higher-end especially as high-end RISC-V cores are far from mature.
Is this an exaggeration, or were there ever such ISAs?
IMO it's futile effort that unnecesarily taxes the big codes.
This really just seems to be Qualcomm wanting it to be more like ARM so they can use their existing cores. That seem pretty clear from what they are proposing.
I want to see variable length instructions, but a requirement for instruction alignment.
Ie. every aligned 64 bit word of RAM contain one of these:
[64 bit instruction]
[32 bit instruction][32 bit instruction]
[16 bit instruction][16 bit instruction][32 bit instruction]
[32 bit instruction][16 bit instruction][16 bit instruction]
[16 bit instruction][16 bit instruction][16 bit instruction][16 bit instruction]
That should make decode far simpler, but put a little more pressure on compilers (instructions will frequently need to be reordered to align - but a review of compiler generated code is that that frequently isn't an issue)
I don't think we have real data on it, but I suspect that the negative impact of this would effect 16/32/48/64 way more than just 32/64.
Since if you have a 16 bit instruction, you know that it must be followed by another 16 bit instruction. Therefore, that 2nd instruction doesn't need the identifying bits. Or, more precisely, within a 32 bit slot, the 2^32 instructions possible need to be divided - and one way to do that is 2^31+2^30 possible 32 bit instructions, and 2^15 * 2^15 16 bit instructions. Now, the 16 bit instructions are only taking 25%, not 75% of the instruction space.
000x -- 64-bit instruction that uses 60 bits
001x -- reserved
010x -- reserved
011x -- reserved
100x -- two 32-bit instructions (each 30-bits)
101x -- two 16-bit instructions then one 32-bit instruction
110x -- one 32-bit instruction then two 16-bit instructions
111x -- four 16-bit instructions (each 15 bits)
xxx1 -- explicitly parallel
xxx0 -- not explicitly parallel
Even with decent instruction scheduling, you are still going to end up with a bunch of instruction slots filled with nops.
And it will be even worse if you take the next step to make it VLIW and require static scheduling within a packet.
In the absolute worst-case scenario where you are blindly jumping to the 16-bit instruction in the 4th position, you only fetch 2-3 unnecessary instructions. Decoders do get a lot more interesting on the performance end as each one will decode between 1 and 4 instructions, but this gets offset by the realization that 64-bit instructions will be used by things like SIMD/vector where you already execute fewer instructions overall.
The move to 64-bit groups also means you can increase cache size without blowing out your latency.
VLIW doesn't mean strictly static scheduling. Even Itanic was just decoding into a traditional backend by the time it retired. You would view it more as optional parallelism hints when marked.
I'd also note that it matches up with VLIW rather well. 64-bit instructions will tend to be SIMD instructions or very long jumps. Both of these are fine without VLIW.
Two 32-bit instructions make it a lot easier to find parallelism and they have lots of room to mark exactly when they are VLIW and when they are not. One 32-bit with two 16-bit still gives the 32-bit room to mark if it's VLIW, so you can turn it off on the worst cases.
The only point where it potentially becomes hard is four 16-bit instructions, but you can either lose a bit of density switching to the 32+16+16 format to not be parallel or you can use all 4 together and make sure they're parallel (or add another marker bit, but that seems like its own problem).
I'd rather have an extra nop or two before jump targets than blindly throw 1-3 instructions worth of decoding bandwidth on jumps (which are often hot)
If you don't want to decode the extra instructions, you don't have to. If the last 2 bits of the jump are zero, you need the whole instruction block. If the last bit is zero, jump to the 35th bit and begin decoding while looking at the first nibble to see if it's a single 32-bit instruction or two 16-bit instructions. And finally, if it ends with a 1, it's the last instruction and must be the last 15 bits.
All that said, if you're using a uop cache and aligning it with I-cache, you're already going to just decode all the things and move on knowing that there's a decent chance you jump back to them later anyway.
Presumably your high performance core has at least three of these 64bit wide decoders, for a frontend that takes a 64bit aligned 192bit block every cycle and decodes three 64bit instructions, six 32bit instructions, twelve 16bit instructions, or some combination of all sizes every cycle.
If you implement unaligned jump targets, then the decoders still need to fetch 64bit aligned blocks to get the length bits. For every unaligned jump, that's upto a third of your instruction decode slots site idle for the first cycle. This might mean the difference between executing a tight loop in one cycle or two.
A similar thing applies to a low gate count version of the core, a design where your instruction decoder targets one 32bit or 16bit instruction per cycle (and a 64bit instruction every second cycle). On unaligned jumps, such a decoder still needs to load the first 32bits of the instruction first to check the length decoding, and waste an entire cycle on every single branch.
Allowing unaligned jump targets might keep a few NOPs out of icache (depending on how good the instruction scheduler is), but it costs you cycles in tight branchy code.
Knowing compiler authors, if you have this style of ISA and even it does support unaligned jump targets, they are still going to default to inserting NOPs to align every single jump target, just because the performance is notably better on aligned jump targets and they have no idea if this branch target is hot or cold.
So my argument is that you might as well enforce jump target alignment of 64 bits anyway. Allow all implementations gain the small wins from assuming that all targets are 64bit aligned, and use the 2 extra bits to make your relative jump instructions have four times as much range.
[jmp nop nop], [addi xxx]
OR
[xxx jmp], [nop nop addi]
OR
[xxx jmp], [unused, addi]
All of these tie up your entire decoder, but some tie it up with potentially useful information. That seems superior to me.
For conditional jumps (which are pretty common), the extra instructions in the packet will be executed whenever the branch isn't taken.
And instruction scheduling can actually do some optimisation here. If you have a loop with an unconditional jump at the end and an unaligned target, you can do partial loop unrolling, for example:
With [xxx, inst_1, inst_2], [inst3]...(loop body) ...[jmp to inst_1, nop, nop], you can repack the final jump packet as [inst_1, inst_2, jump to inst_3]
This partial loop unrolling actually is much better for performance than not wasting I-cache as it has reduces the number of instruction decoder packets per iteration by one. Compilers will implement this anyway, even if you do support mid-packet jump targets.
Finally, compilers already tend to put nops after jumps and returns on current ISAs, because they want certain jump targets (function entry points, jump table entries) to be aligned to cache lines.
Can't you pad it with nops up to the alignment boundary?
Even if there's not an explicit nop instruction in 16-bit and 32-bit variants (I don't know) there's surely something you can find that will have no side effects.
If you can make a compiler fill those NOP slots with useful instructions, then all the better.
It adds complexity for humans writing assembly code by hand, but that is a tiny minority of code now.
If the 16-bit instruction isn't 32-bit aligned, then the following instruction will be 32-bit aligned with no padding.
So, equivalently: "I don't know why you'd ever want to add padding after a 16-bit instruction in order to force the next instruction to not be 32-bit aligned." Is there such a use case (other than the obvious use case of checking behavior/performance of the sub-optimal case, or writing a noop-slide for an exploit payload)?
Okay, for 1. you'd have to do two fetches to get stuff into the I-cache (but not if it's part of the same cache line, option 2.) and of course you're going to reduce instruction density because you're using up cache, but there's nothing you can do about that, but at least it would allow n-bit instructions to be genuinely n-bits long which is a big advantage.
That this hasn't been done before to my knowledge is proof that it's a rotten idea, but can the experts here please explain why – thanks
I think this is the big downside. You're effectively taking information which will always be needed at the same time, and storing it in two different places.
There is never a need for one piece of information without the other, so why not store it together.
Why not? as I said, so you can have full-length instructions!
And you can store it together in the same fetchable unit - the cache line (my option 2)
Start compressed instructions <size>
Compressed instructions
End compressed instructions <size>
Wouldn't that be to Huffman encode the instructions? Fixed table, but still, would save a lot of bits on the common instructions surely...
So it's been done, and is not a big deal.
The major question is how well RISC-V will manage disputes over this sort of thing without some group such as Qualcomm deciding to just release their version anyway.
To me, this looks like a reasonable argument over design decisions, where there are clear advantages and disadvantages to either side. It's basically a trade-off between code size and front-end complexity. Can you detail where exactly you see the purism thing being an issue?
I see now what you mean by posing this as a conflict between ISA purists (only provide load/store all other instructions have register or immediate operands, only provide one store and one load instruction, add compressed instructions to combat binary bloat) and ISA pragmatists (add new special-case instructions with memory operands and useful addressing modes).
Qualcomm must resolve this within RISC-V International somehow. Going its own way would designate those products as non-conformant to RV spec, not passing test suites, not allowed to carry RISC-V logo or claim "RISC-V compatible", etc. With all the software headaches that would result in. Or 3rd party vendors avoiding such Qualcomm products.
So this comes down to "convince majority of RISC-V members Qualcomm's proposal is better". Or failing that, just deal with it.
Whatever happens, chances are slim that backward compatibility with existing implementations & software would be broken @ this point. So creating some kind of alternative profile seems like the most sane option?
Only if they use the op space reserved for custom extensions.
If they don't and instead step all over space that belongs to C, then they would indeed not be RISC-V.
Which is what I understand they're doing. Thus could not be called RISC-V.
If Qualcomm’s offering is performant (in its dollars, power and speed mix) and Qualcomm keeps it open enough (I think this is at the moment, as they are using an instruction set that anybody can copy), would Qualcomm’s customers care about that? If so, would Qualcomm?
The largest possible concern I see is that customers would have to be convinced that Qualcomm can deliver good compilers that don’t inadvertently spit out instructions not supported by their somewhat off-beat hardware.
Second, the software ecosystem is huge, far more then compiles. And given how everybody today uses open source, making all that available for Qualcomm seems like a losing effort.
Is Qualcomm gone pay to make Android Qualcomm-RISC-V ready. Are they gone provide advanced verification suits. Formal analysis and all that stuff?
Qualcomm absolutely have the market power in the Android space to redefine a new open ISA if they want to though.
Only if Google allows them. Which is unlikely.
RISC-V has already been deployed widely, including 64-bit. Various medium performance cores are out there being used or are being interceded soon.
There are also various companies making high performance RISC-V designs, not a single one of them has suggested that RISC-V design isn't gone work well for their effort. In fact quite the opposite.
And then Qualcomm shows up making
> group such as Qualcomm deciding to just release their version anyway.
They are free to do so. The can even call it 'RISC-V' as long as the base ISA is ok. But its unlikely to be a standard.
It would be, very, very, very hard for them to make all the distros, compilers, and other tools available for their distribution. And Google isn't gone make Android available for Qualcomm specifically unless they get paid a lot.
There is a reason Qualcomm want to be the new standard, they know they can't finance all the software work themselves.
The reality here is not that RISC-V can't be competitive, but rather that Qualcomm doesn't want to invest lots of money in changing their designs to be 'RISC-V native' so they simply propose RISC-V to be almost exactly like AArch64. This seem to me to simply be a pretty transparent Qualcomm short term money saving effort that nobody else asked for.
Qualcomm's proposal to add complex addressing modes to RISC-V is a design that has been tested by time and is known to work. Apple (and now ARM, with X4) are using this ISA design to deliver enthusiast-level performance in a thermal envelope of a compact handheld device. It is not at all obvious to me that RISC-V, which requires the CPU to perform additional work to bundle operations for efficient execution, is capable of the same feat.
RISC-V compressed instructions are provably WAY less complex to decode than x86 and only a bit more complex than ARM64. Once you get past slicing apart the instructions, RISC-V decoders are much more simple than ARM64 because the stuff they are decoding is way less complex.
I also agree that RISC-V decoders are simpler but only because the base ISA itself is very limited. Once you add functionality like FP, atomics, Zb extension, vectors etc… there is not that much difference. And the need to do fusion for address computation adds another layer of complexity on top.
https://chipsandcheese.com/2021/07/13/arm-or-x86-isa-doesnt-...
Addressing modes have never been mentioned as a limiting factor. Its not clear at all that addressing modes are a game changer for performance.
You can also argue that any other unique feature of ARM or x86 is the 'magical pile' that allows for much higher performance. The more reasonable assumption to me is that its simply about how much is invested to make it happen. I think based on its design, less investment into RISC-V will lead to a higher performance core compared to ARM because of that complexity.
Qualcomm motivation here seems pretty clear, and I don't believe its actually because they have pure technical merit at the heart of their desires.
So should I really believe the company that has clear financial motivation to push their line?
What's the evidence that the existing RISC-V approach is not competitive, and thus that Qualcomm's changes are necessary?
So far, nearly all RISC-V is in the embedded space where everything is compiled from scratch, and a change to the ISA wouldn't have a huge impact.
Far more important to get it right for RISC-V phones/laptops/servers, where code will be distributed in binary form and expected to maintain forward and back CPU compatibility for 10+years.
Well that's only sunk cost if they assumed from the start that they were going to change the design to RISC-V AND drop the C extension. In that case, it was a rather risky plan from the start - assuming they can shift the industry like that. I'm guessing RISC-V was a change of direction for them and this would make things easier short term.
The time to 'get it right' has already passed IMO. If a hard ISA compatibility break happens at this stage, who is going to trust that it won't happen again?
The question is really about how far do they want to go beyond just disallowing page-crossing / cacheline-crossing instructions.
Personally, I always thought the C extension would have been much easier to implement if it had certain rules about it. Imagine looking at a random location in memory, how can you tell where instructions begin and end? You can't.
Does Qualcomm have a concrete proposal for how their version of compressed instructions would work, or is the idea more or less just "the C extensions but 32-bit instructions must be 32-bit aligned"? Have they published details somewhere?
It adds new addressing modes, and things like load/store-pair instructions.
(I would mind that future though.)
Not an issue; Qualcomm is a member of RISC-V, thus it has signed the agreement. It has legalese designed to prevent this and further entire categories of legal issues.
I know there's the big discussion about macro-op fusion. But in hindsight, I think a big motivator for C -- implicit or not -- was the fact that on the very low-end microcontroller or in the softcore (FPGA) world, you typically have disproportionately low amounts of SRAM available versus compute fabric. Those were the initial deployment targets (and initial successful deployments!) for RISC-V, since you need tons of extra features for "Application Class" designs. These cores often have a short pipeline and are completely in-order, so their cost and verification effort are much lower. These are (very likely) not going to implement macro fusion, at least on the medium-low end. So, increasing the effective size of the I-cache through smaller opcodes is often a straight win to increase IPC. On the other hand, Application Class designs today are typically OoO, so they achieve high IPC while still hiding miss latencies pretty effectively; smaller instructions are still good but the benefits they provide aren't as prominent. And it does use a ridiculous amount of opcode space, yes.
I wonder if they would have just been better off copying one of ARM's design principles from the very start: actual design families akin to the -M, -R, and -A series of ARM processors, created for different actual design spaces. These could actually be allowed to have (potentially large!) incompatibilities between them while still sharing a lot of the base instruction set and privileged e.g. PMP extensions could probably exist among all of them. I'd be happy to have an "Application Class" "-A series" RISC-V processor that could run Linux but didn't have compressed instructions or whatever; likewise I would probably not miss e.g. Hypervisor extensions on a microcontroller.
EDIT: Clipped an incorrect bit about ABI compatibility with the C extension. I was misremembering some details about a specific implementation!
I believe this is incorrect? I believe RV{32,64}-with-C is simply a superset of RV{32,64}-without-C. Now I have only implemented RV32I, so I'm not that familiar with the C extension or other extensions for that matter, but in my digging through the various RV specs, I haven't found anything which suggests that implementing C requires breaking code compiled without the use of C.
Do you have any details?
Wish I could use strike-outs here, but oh well.
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and the font HN uses doesn't handle any of them well
Perhaps if enough people asked for it then the <s> markdown equiv could be added ~~ in some apps.
> The C extension is compatible with all other standard instruction extensions. The C extension allows 16-bit instructions to be freely intermixed with 32-bit instructions, with the latter now able to start on any 16-bit boundary [...]
Consider also a 16-bit aligned 32-bit instruction crossing a page boundary, potentially with different access permissions. This type of bug allowed userspace applications to hang early Cortex-A8 based phones(ARM errata 657417).
(This mostly applies to the high end, but designers on low-end devices may be more SRAM-constrained)
Anyway, all that aside, I personally wouldn't be sad to see the C extensions go away. I'm actively designing a RISC-V core for a small game console, and probably won't implement them, and will spend the time on more DV instead. I don't expect them to have any meaningful benefits for my case and mostly increase frontend complexity.
Not too long ago, Qualcomm bought NUVIA, a designer of high performance arm64 cores that can theoretically compete with Apple cores on perf. Arm pretty much immediately sued saying that the specifics of the licenses that Qualcomm and NUVIA have mean that cores developed under NUVIA's license can't be transferred to Qualcomm's license.[0] Qualcomm obviously disagrees. Whatever happens those cores as they exist today are going to be stuck in litigation for longer than they're relevant.
Qualcomm's proposal smells strongly like they're doing the minimum to strap a RISC-V decoder to the front of these cores. For whatever reason the seem hell bent on only changing the part of the front end that's the 'pure function that converts bit patterns of ops to bit patterns of micro-ops'. Arm64 is only 32bit aligned instructions, so they don't want to support anything else.
At the end of the day, the C extension really isn't that bad to support in a high perf core if you go in wanting to support it. The canonical design (not just for RISC-V but high end designs like Intel and AMD too) is to have I$ lines fill into a shift register, have some hardware on whatever period your alignment boundary is that reports 'if an instruction started here, how long is it', and a second stage (logically, it doesn't have to be an actual clock stage) that looks at all of those reports generates the instruction boundaries and feeds them into the decoders. At this point everything is also marked for validity (ie. did an I$ line not come in because of a TLB permissions failure or something).
[0] - https://www.reuters.com/legal/chips-tech-firm-arm-sues-qualc...
Though, I suspect that's easy problem to fix. The more pressing issue is what happens after the decoders. I understand this is a very wide design, decoding say 10 instructions per cycle.
There might be a single 16bit instruction in the middle of that block 40 bytes, changing the alignment halfway though. To keep the same throughput, Qualcomm now need 20 decoders, one attempting to decode on every 16bit boundary. The extra decoders waste power and die space.
Even worse, they somehow need to collect the first 10 valid instructions from those 20 decoders. I really doubt they have enough slack to do that inside the decode stage, or the next stage, so Qualcomm might find them selves adding an entire extra pipeline stage, (probably before decode, so they can have 20 simpler length decoders feeding into 10 full decoders on the next) just to deal with possible misaligned instructions.
I don't know how flexible their design is, it's quite possible adding an entire extra pipeline stage is a big deal. Much bigger than just rewriting the instruction decoders to 32bit RISC-V.
> I don't know how flexible their design is, it's quite possible adding an entire extra pipeline stage is a big deal. Much bigger than just rewriting the instruction decoders to 32bit RISC-V.
I'm sure it is legitimately simpler for them. I'm not sure we should bend over backwards and bring down the rest of the industry because they don't want to do it. Veyron, Tenstorrent were showing off high perf designs with RV-C.
For an 8-wide or 10-wide design, the propagation delays are getting too long to do it in all in single cycle. So you need the extra pipeline stage. The longer pipeline translates to more cycles wasted on branch mispredits.
RISC-V code is only about 6-14% denser than Aarch64 [1], I'm really not sure the extra complexity is worth it. Especially since Aarch64 still ends up with a lower instruction count, so it will be faster whenever you are decode limited instead of icache limited.
> Adding complexity to the I$ hasn't even made sense for x86 in two decades
Hang on. Limiting the Icache to only 32bit aligned access actually simplifies it.
And since the NUVIA core was originally an aarch64 core, why wouldn't they optimise for hardcoded 32bit alignment and get a slightly smaller Icache?
Even x86 only reads 16 or 32 byte aligned fields out of the I$, then shifts them. There's not extra I$ complexity. You still have to do that shift at some point, in case you don't jump 32 byte aligned address. You also ideally don't want to only hit peak decode bandwidth starting on aligned 32 byte program counters, so that whole shift register thing is pretty much a requirement. And that's where most of the propagation delays are.
> RISC-V code is only about 6-14% denser than Aarch64 [1], I'm really not sure the extra complexity is worth it. Especially since Aarch64 still ends up with a lower instruction count, so it will be faster whenever you are decode limited instead of icache limited.
There's heavy use of fusion, and fwiw, the M1 also heavily fuses into micro ops too (and I'm sure the AArch64 morph of NUVIA's cores do too).
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/MIPS_Assembly/Instruction_Form...
https://valsamaras.medium.com/arm-64-assembly-series-branch-...
And it's not only a way of decreasing code size. It help with security too. If you can have an innocuous looking bit of binary starting at address X that turns into a piece of malware if you dump to instruction X+1 that's a serious problem.
https://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/11/attackin...
RISC-V, I'm pretty sure, enforces 16 bit alignment and is self synchronizing so it doesn't suffer from this despite being variable length. But if it allowed the PC to be pointed at an instruction with a 1 byte offset then it might be.
As far as I'm aware every RISC ISA that's had any commercial succss does this. HP RISC, SPARC, POWER, MIPS, Arm, RISC-V, etc.
> It help with security too. If you can have an innocuous looking bit of binary starting at address X that turns into a piece of malware if you dump to instruction X+1 that's a serious problem.
JIT spraying attacks work just fine on aligned architectures too, hence why Linux hardened the AArch64 BPF JIT as well: https://linux-kernel.vger.kernel.narkive.com/M0Qk08uz/patch-...
Additionally, MIPS these days has a compressed extension to their ISA too, heavily inspired by RV-C. https://mips.com/products/architectures/nanomips/
And NanoMips requires instructions to be word aligned just like everybody else, it's just that it requires 16 bit alignment rather than 32. Attempting to access an odd PC address will result in an access error according to this:
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/downloads-mips/I7200/I720...
That's the same as RV-C.
I don't have a strong opinion on whether the C extension is a net good or bad for high performance designs, but I do strongly believe that it comes with costs as well as benefits.
https://project-archive.inf.ed.ac.uk/ug4/20191424/ug4_proj.p...
Since then, RISC-V has added a bunch more instructions that ARM/x86 already had which has made RISC-V even smaller relative to them.
That's the point? You can go faster if everything is 32-bit aligned, i.e. you don't have variable length instructions.
Hmm.. At about the same time as the proposal to drop C from RVA, Qualcomm also proposed an instruction-set extension [1] that smells very much of ARM's ISA (at least to my nose). It also has several issues to criticise, IMHO.
[1] https://lists.riscv.org/g/tech-profiles/attachment/332/0/cod...
But you need most of that anyway because you need to handle program counters that aren't 32 byte aligned, so you need to either do it before hitting the decoders, or afterwards when you're throwing the micro-ops into the issue queues (which are probably much wider and therefore more expensive).
That doesn't seem correct. I think adding and dropping C for desktop/server workloads would be relatively easy. Most of what will be run on it is either open source (Linux, Apache et al) or Java/Python/Go/.Net. Either way, I'd expect Oracle or somebody to support both with a single installer. This isn't x86 where there is a lot of binaries with no source, or lots of janky code that assumes x86 that we need backward compatibility. (Note: IIRC RV32A is the "application" profile, not for embedded where hand tuned assembly is a real thing, things are much more fragile there).
That said, just like Linux supported multiple x86 based platforms (PC-98), I'd imagine Debian and others would support non-C processors with distros, so I don't think it would really hurt Qualcomm if it's kept and they don't include it.
> They also say that there's lots of implementations with C in already, so backing out of it now disadvantages those implementations.
Ugh. So we should hold hold onto something, even if it is a bad idea just because other people wasted time on it? That seems like a very crab-bucket mentality. Not saying it should be removed, but the decision should be technical, not based on favoring certain players.
So, if someone forks the arch such that two different distros are required based on HW, its just going to fragment the distro's too because some of them will just pick one or the other profile.
It's not super easy because standard RISC-V without the c extension balloons code size by about 30%. So Qualcomm is proposing a set of custom extensions on top of that to get the code size back down. It's not clear what the patent situation is on those extensions since they're so obviously AArch64 inspired.
Stated in the reverse, removing compressed instructions would increase the kernel size by 50%.
https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~krste/papers/EECS-2016-1.p...
p. 51
> each RVC instruction must expand into a single RISC-V instruction. The reasons for this constraint are twofold. Most importantly, it simplifies the implementation and verification of RVC processors: RVC instructions can simply be expanded into their base ISA counterparts during instruction decode, and so the backend of the processor can be largely agnostic to their existence. ... This constraint does, however, preclude some important code size optimizations: notably, load-multiple and store-multiple instructions, a common feature of other compressed RISC ISAs, do not fit this template. ... Given these constraints, the ISA design problem reduces to a simple tradeoff between compression ratio and ease of instruction decode cost. ... The dictionary lookup is costly, offsetting the instruction fetch energy savings. It also adds significant latency to instruction decode, likely reducing performance and further offsetting the energy savings. Finally, the dictionary adds to the architectural state, increasing context switch time and memory usage.
They have never build a core comparable to the fastest current Arm, x86 cores because they haven't been moving up the performance curve for very long. Just five generations at this point.
October 2017: U54, almost A53 competitive despite being single-issue
October 2018: U74 (dual issue), A55 class
October 2019: U84 (OoO), A72 class
June 2021: P550, A76 class
December 2021: P650, A78 class
October 2023: P870, Cortex-X3 class
SiFive can't talk a lot about power consumption because that depends not only on the core design but the entire SoC, the process node, the corner of the process node, the physical design and many other things that are under the control of SiFive's customers, not SiFive.
After all the Vector, AI, and graphics stuff is hashed out I'd like to see a RISC-VI with all the same specs but totally redone instruction encoding. But maybe that's just me.
Not sure what you mean here: opcode space has to have been reserved for the C extension from the start, that part can’t have been an afterthought. It may have been badly designed still, but if so that must be for other reasons (working from a bad code sample is often cited).
> The encoding of constants into the 32-bit instruction word is really ugly and also wastes opcode space.
It kinda has to be to minimise fanout, and with it propagation delays and energy consumption. As a software guy I recoil in horror, but I can’t argue against faster and more efficient decoders. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7EPIelcckk
> I'm also a fan of immediate data (after the opcode), which for RISC-V I would have made come in 16,32,64 bit sizes.
So was I, before I read the RISC-V specs. One possible disadvantage of separate immediate data is wasting instruction space (many constants are so much closer to zero than 127), making alignment issues even worse, and it could increase decoding latency. I would definitely do this for bytecode for a stack machine meant to be decoded by software, but for a register machine I want to instantiate in an FPGA or ASIC, I would think long and hard before making a different choice than RISC-V.
I understand that "afterthought" can be more of a subjective comment on the design than a concrete claim about the order of events, but still I'll quote directly from the RISC-V Instruction Set Manual:
> Given the code size and energy savings of a compressed format, we wanted to build in support for a compressed format to the ISA encoding scheme rather than adding this as an afterthought
Maybe I should weigh in on this issue in the official channels.
[0] https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~krste/papers/EECS-2016-1.p...
The analysis from the SiFive folks generally doesn't include that compensation factor: it just involves a straight find-and-replace in the binary.
First, you context switch a lot to and from the Linux kernel, so decreased cache pressure does matter.
Second, if you have proof that loops predominantly consist of 32-bit instructions, prove your case. To my mind, a loop is likely to use fewer registers and likely to have shorter branches and smaller immediate values. all of these seem to favor compressed instructions actually favoring working code even MORE than general code.
As to what you suggested, I have actually started putting something together to possibly send to the RISC-V foundation from my own experience implementing RISC-V designs, but pretty much nobody is asserting that loops are predominantly 32-bit instructions. Tight loops are often already sitting in a uop cache once you get to a core of reasonable size, so compressed vs uncompressed is completely irrelevant. Contrary to what you seem to be hoping for, correct arguments about working set size and performance are very subtle.
The C instructions aren't free in frequency terms, either. You have significant complexity increases in decoders and cache hierarchies to support them. Making that cost add up to 3% is not that hard.
Andrew at SiFive disagrees vehemently[0].
>Qualcomm is definitely not alone
It's also worth noting that they tried to appropriate Rivos's opinion, only to be called out[1].
0. https://lists.riscv.org/g/tech-profiles/topic/slides_on_reta...
From the start they seemed overfunded and with no real good long term business model. They have no lock-in because of the whole open nature of RISC-V.
- They're not designing for any specific in-house purpose like Alibaba/Western-Digital
- The low end will always be dominated by Allwinner and company and they can't win
- The high end is competing with x64 and huge companies like Intel.. also can't win unless you're Apple
They make non-pricecompetitive middle of the road chips that nobody really needs other than RISC-V enthusiasts.. And at the end of the day effectively anyone can come in and do what they're doing at any point.
The latest announcement seems to show they're finally shifting to the strategy their Chinese competitors have been doing for years. Open RISC-V cores and then get lock-in with custom NPUs. I doubt they'll be able to compete with Chinese firms there though
Cool idealistic company, but at the end of the day making cool stuff isn't in itself a business model - and you gotta make money to pay the bills
RIP
See my other comment.
For example, a small 5-stage pipelined VexRiscv CPU take around 2000 logic elements. That's nothing in today's large FPGAs. Add, say, 4KB of RAM and put it right next to the complex HW core that you want to manage and you have the equivalent of a complex FSM that's programmable without any worries about having to share cycles with other processes and missing out events with hard real-time requirements.
It's done all the time, and it's great.
And of course 9 women can't deliver a baby in one month.
VC gave them money on the initial RISC-V hype but then the hyped died down. There was like a good year or two with no real affordable products on the market and the software/toolchains were all half-baked. It also became clear that an open instruction set doesn't really bring you any huge "win". As far as I can see, the necessary subsequent waves of VC with deeper pockets never materialized (like MagicLeap had managed)
The Chinese competitors were also very quick and managed to catch up and in essence beat them to market - so they've lost any first-mover advantage
I guess it makes sense from the investment angle. Ie. need to grow, and need to grow fast, therefore need for lots of cash, therefore need for risk takers.
But at the same time not so much so for the angle of is growth realistically possible for this type of company? It took ARM over 30 years to organically grow with ups and downs to what it is today, in an age where the foundry landscape was much less complex wand wild chip design innovations were much more common. (We had SPARC, PowerPC, MIPS, PA-RISC, Alpha AXP, i960, 68k, Itanium, Transmeta in the nineties.)
From what I read, SiFive had broad ambitions and wasn't very focused. Not sure if it is viable, but expecting it to turn $$$ into competitive chip designs in a couple of years was a bit of a stretch.
sparc, mips, pa-risc, i960 are 80s
arm is 80s too
transmeta didn't ship shit until 02000
i'll give you alpha, powerpc, and itanic tho
I was thinking of the cool, companies (Silicon Graphics, Apple, NeXT, BeOS) and high end stuff (SUN, Hewlett Packard, DEC), of the pre-WinTel era. When CPUs had one core, integrated memory and periphery controllers and even floating point co-processors weren't ubiquitous and "graphics cards" did not include a "GPU".
Acorn worked with a single company (VLSI) to produce the first ARM chips. When ARM came of age, there wasn't a complex "foundry ecosystem" where dozens of companies specialize in different stages of what results in a SoC.
from my perspective i see a lot of totally wild stuff, not all of it successful: yosys, esp32, fram, reram, optane, tensilica, cortex-m0 socs, padauk's fppas, gigadevice, apple's m1 and m2, graviton, tpus, ambiq's subthreshold utter insanity, stm32g, the unbelievable explosion of photovoltaic, wch's ch32v003, gallium nitride, mram, wlcsps, jlcpcb's smd assembly service, mass-market lidar chips with picosecond timing, chalcogenide pram, greenarrays, silicon carbide, modern silicon mosfets (not to mention igbts), led streetlights, petabit interconnects in data centers, nvme ssds, the zillion variations of risc-v, bitcoin mining asics, oled displays (though those aren't chips), gpgpu, submillimeter phased-array mass-market products like starlink, indium phosphide amplifiers in oscilloscopes, amorphous-silicon-on-glass products from sharp hitting the mass market (look, ma, no cog!), and skywater's open-source pdk and the associated shuttle program
so i have a hard time agreeing that "wild chip design innovations were much more common" in the 01990s than now; from my perspective that could hardly be farther from the truth
The other day Qualcomm announced a RSIC-V based Android wearable SoC. Expect to see full smartphone SoCs in shipping devices in a few years. ARM's attempts to extract more value after going public and lawsuit with Qualcomm is souring their relationships and driving customers to RISC-V.
Maybe (say) Tenstorrent will take up the mantle but just saying that 'the industry will drive it' doesn't really describe how Arm gets replaced.
For a long time (around 2010 to 2016) the internally developed Qualcomm ARM core did outperform the cores you could license from ARM. Qualcomm's internal team fell behind and then Qualcomm started licensing the standard ARM designed cores. Now Qualcomm acquired Nuvia and wants to develop their own custom cores again. We will see how it goes.
Most of the old Qualcomm ARM CPU team went to Microsoft for a few years, got laid off, and now actually work for ARM.
Of course the Qualcomm's use of Nuvia cores is subject to the ongoing legal case so it's difficult to see how that will work out.
This smells of them trying to convert Nuvia from ARM to RISC-V so the entire Nuvia case basically goes away before they get forced to pay out a lot of money.
IANAL but I'd be astonished if they get away with that IP making its way into RISC-V designs, if Arm win.
Plus, they won't have anything RISC-V based available in anywhere near the required timescales. They're still arguing about the ISA after all!
If Qualcomm can show up and say "here's our uarch running a different ISA", it disproves that point and at most leaves dispute about some patents where Qualcomm can probably get a quick settlement for far less than the royalties would cost them.
The whole point of Znew is to transform RISC-V into something so similar to ARM64 that they can swap out the decoder and be good to go.
This Qualcomm exec got shoved aside after making this statement.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/447916/apples-64bit-a7-chip-...
Qualcomm quickly switched to licensing a 64-bit core from ARM which was the Snapdragon 810 that had overheating problems. After that the next Snapdragon 820 with Qualcomm's internally developed 64-bit CPU was fine.
That same team was also developing their ARM server CPU but that whole project got cancelled and the team got let go around 2018.
With ARM they acted as a gatekeeper through their licenses. Anyone who wanted to design ARM based chips needed a license and their licensing structure has gotten more complicated and expensive over the years.
You do know that Arm makes a tiny amount on each core licensed and that none of the firms you mention will have any interest in that business model. If they’ve spent a lot of money on a competitive design they will not be handing to competitors for peanuts.
My original comment. Qualcomm won't be doing this. Or at least not for a fee that is in any way comparable to what Arm charges.
There were PLENTY of very smart people there, but after buying OpenSilicon it was sort of hard to figure out what they were trying to do. Are they an IP licensing company? Do they design custom cores (or SoCs) for people? Do they make catalog parts? Are they a software company?
And then they kept asking too much money from Intel (which had some problems of their own) and they (Intel) walked away from the deal. I don't think SiFive could recover from that.
Long story short, this isn't super surprising given that it basically killed our product.
An ETH Zurich team have done a triple core lockstep version for cubesats: https://www.theregister.com/2023/10/05/riscv_microcontroller...
Gaisler is also current one of the biggest players there IIRC. I've used them for stuff in the past.
I believe this is because ARM wasn't confident they'd be able to enforce licensing effectively.
For non-FPGA designs, they only need to have insider knowledge from a handful of fab companies to detect those using cores without valid licenses.
How exactly ARM does this isn't always clear. For hard IP there is a GDS layer called IP tags and the foundry is supposed to scan this layer and can report numbers back to IP providers like ARM, Cadence, Synopsys, etc. If the customer removed this layer "accidentally" then the foundry can still scan for certain patterns and structures within the GDS mask data. Like a unique hidden watermark and report back to the IP vendor.
For soft IP that is synthesized there are probably other ways to do it but I'm not that up to date.
There are companies that take commercial parts and nuke them under a beam at places like TAMU to profile their performance then resell to aerospace. The issue is by the time this flight qualification happens the parts are old as hell.
There are the famous "old as hell" rad-hard powerPCs which cost $200k, used for historical reasons or extreme environments like a fly-by of Venus. It's true that older chips may be inherently more radiation tolerant due to larger features on the silicon but it's a misconception that CPUs used in space are therefore always old as hell. These are usually selected because they are good enough and to reuse design and qualification from a previous project instead of spending millions and ten person-years on a new design.
But commercial spacecraft these days usually use something like this[1] triple-redundant 50MHz softcpu implemented on an FPGA or this[2] Ultrascale ~1Ghz SOC protected by a secret sauce of separate FPGA for watchdog and overcurrent detection. Both are modern, run linux and use modern development environments/tools. The former is slower but can recover upsets in realtime, while the latter is much faster but needs to reset itself to recover at least some types of upsets.
[1] https://www.aac-clyde.space/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/AAC_D...
Having a big player as the "ARM of Risc-V" funded by VC was so toxic. It takes the oxygen out of the ecosystem.
The next step in open hardware is not having more proprietary silicon shops, it's streamlining the manufacturing process to make it look more like pooled PCB manufacturing, so that open collaborative groups can cheaply iterate their designs.
Manufacturing processors is expensive. You need a big successful company to show that it's possible and profitable to invest.
Long term, yes I kind of agree, you run the risk of extend and extinguish if you get one dominant player, but you aren't going to get to the point of RISC V being successful by shunning big companies willing to invest. You just need to make sure they're more red hat or sun (pre buyout).
Not really. I'd say designing processors is expensive in engineering costs, and open designs are already pretty impressive and can be used as starting points. It's also expensive to optimize a design for a given process, which is necessary to get the best performance (probably by a factor of two?) from the design/process. So I'd expect the foundries to start offering optimized RISC-V cores to SoC designers as part of their offerings - especially as we reach the end of scaling.
But that just makes it worse.
If you have to spend £5million over 5 years to design something, you need to get funding until the point where you're actually selling products. If all the cost is in the actual manufacturing, you don't need the capital outlay early on.
Total compensation for engineers is in the $150K to $400K range in the US.
This isn't getting cheaper.
PCB manufacturing is many orders of magnitude simpler and cheaper and easy to do at the hobbyist level.
Nobody needs another processor. Even an old-ass MIPS core is good enough.
The interesting bits are RF, ADC, DAC, SerDes, high efficiency DC-DC, low leakage designs, etc. RISC-V does not one iota of good for any of these things. Nor do these things need 5nm technologies--180nm or 250nm would be just fine though you'd probably have to use 120nm just because everything else probably has too little fab capacity left.
Which is a shame because that is precisely the path RISC-V needed to take to unseat ARM. It needed to be really good in the under 10 cents category with some decent analog peripherals such that it could expand upward and eventually eat ARM.
The under 10 cents category of microcontrollers is an absolute shitshow and has been for 10+ years. RISC-V could have brought unified tooling and architecture to that space. However, that isn't sexy. It would only let you ship a zillion chips and make reasonable profits. And that's just not VC compatible.
You're absolutely right though that companies pick the process node based on the application. Everything I'm working on now is 5nm or smaller. Our customers DO want faster processors but we also have lots of serdes for 400+ gigabit networking and other stuff. I have friends doing DC power converters in 180nm. That's over 20 years old now but still useful for a lot of applications.
I worked at another startup and you're right about some things not being VC compatible. They want big investments and big payoffs. They aren't interested in investing in companies with lower risk but steady smaller profits.
Open source collaborative groups are not going to do shit in this space piddling away in their garages or community workspaces. It takes hundreds of millions of dollars to build a fab that can make competitive chips and beer money donations are not going to get us there.
Lot of VC work is regulatory arbitrage: how to steal the flowers from the public park without going to prison. That's why they are so proud of all these local sectoral monopolies they established while the lawmakers were asleep at the wheel, or bought, so the normal limits on profit in a market economy, through competition, are suspended.
Bulk of VC compensation is management fees, wisely based on the "head I win tail you lose" model and losses are often outsourced to ordinary folks via institutions like the Ontario Teachers' Pension Fund.
Money is just the scoring system of the economic game. If the rich play zero sum games with the points with each other it's harmless, and much better than malinvestment in Yachts or Web3 platforms where actual steel and engineering capacity is taken away from better use cases.
Other CEO: Ah yes, <company>. I guess that makes us competitors.
Our CEO: We'll be competitors when you ship a product.
RISC-V is/was vitally important in putting downward pressure on ARM licensing. But large companies were never going to move off ARM for their workhorse CPUs. They'd use the threat of moving to RISC-V as a way of getting sweetheart IP deals from ARM, but no one actually wanted to start over on a new software transition while the move to ARM was still unfinished.
Given current laws. I wonder if the world wouldn’t be better off with strong interoperability laws, where ISAs are simply neither copyrightable nor patentable. This would instantly kill ARM of course, but their ISA (well, ISAs) would live on. I love the design of RISC-V, but I find it kind of sick that being forbidden to implement one’s own ARM or x86 core is such a big reason for its success.
All I can say is general comment as a consumer / "prosumer"; I recently went looking to build out a high core count homelab server built on either RISC-V or ARM; because I wanted lower power consumption, higher core count, and, well, was interested in something non-x86 anyways. When I went looking, I found there is still nothing out there in the ARM world other than Ampere servers and that is unavailable to end consumers. We're decades into this ARM thing, but there are entire market segments where ARM looks like it'd be applicable but there are no products (ok, other than Apple). And yet I also found that RISC-V seems to be making early moves into this kind of space - e.g. I can preorder and actually buy the Milk-V SOPHON-base "Pioneer" board, which is a 64-core RISC-V board in mATX form factor I can put in my own case, etc. but nothing like this seems reasonable on the horizon for ARM. Still.
My question is: is this a product of the viability (or lack of it) of these segments/ businesses, or does it have something to do with ARM licensing?
Anyways, I'm bullish on RISC-V. I played with PicoRV32 a few years ago on hobby FPGA projects; built out my own little primitive SoC on an Artix A7 board, wrote my own little operating system, it was great fun. The openness of all this stuff is fantastic and necessary for producing innovation. I feel like the nature of RISC-V will naturally tend towards producing more diversity of products than ARM has, even if the investment environment goes through a bit of a contraction for a bit.
The article contains the text "SiFive has instigated a large number of layoffs." I suggest that as a vastly more useful title than "gosh golly something happened".
CIRCT is the first interesting thing to happen in the EDA space in decades and I would hate to see it nipped in the bud because of this movement in its chief corporate steward.
They kept mentioning they would match or do better than ARM pricing, but at least with ARM, there was a bit more flexibility (like paying at tapeout, and for startups with ARM it's like $100k for support IIRC).
It could end up having a silver lining if RISC-V talent/knowledge becomes less monopolized.
The answer to your question: yes.
Because they believe in it.
>And Jim Keller even puts out some ridiculous statements about RISC-V taking over the data center in 5 to 10 years.
Not at all ridiculous. RISC-V is inevitable.
Tenstorrent already has a design, Ascalon, which is strong enough to be competitive with what's expected from Zen5. And they've already licensed it to LG.
October 2023 careers page: >600 employees, > 100 PHDs
The about page currently says >180 PhDs design our chips and 85% of employees are engineers, but you can see that between Oct 12 and Oct 15 the number changed from 100 PhDs to 180 PhDs (wayback machine). That's pretty much right before the layoffs, how does that make any sense. (I suppose they may have took some time to update the website)
If we go by the 600 number, then this laid off 21% of the company and got 80 new PhDs before the layoff.
Many Linux companies have come and gone. Linux continues to thrive.
Likewise many RISC-V companies will come and go. The architecture will live on.
I venture to predict that the many proprietary Western-originated CPU architectures will fade away in the decades to come. RISC-V (and/or its successors) will become the world-wide norm, not based in any particular part of the World.
There indeed is a RISC of China leading in development.
I managed to find it in my cache, but it has been set to private, which is good, because the description contained a link to a spreedcheet of 37 employees and their contacts + job descriptions.
OpenSPARC is really only truly open in its 32 bit version. The 64 bit was not open in the same way. Sparc having things like register windows and delay slots also technically didn't have a clear advantage over ARM or MIPS. Also its strong association with Oracle wasn't gone help.
RISC-V was truly open from first principle and did some technical clean up. Additionally, very early, before RISC-V was even a standard, they had already released a bunch of 32-bit cores that could compete with ARM cores, and a bunch of students built it. The ISA was easy to build for, and that helped in education. The university of Berkley got eyes on the project and then quickly the ETH and others jumped on in. So there were multiple open cores both in modern Chisel and SystemVerilog.
They were also clear about trademarks and how to use them once the foundation was established. There was a path forward to evolve it, not a fixed standard. Companies could get involved and help get RISC-V to where they needed it. In the standard, a way to add custom instructions without clashing with any future RISC-V instruction.
OpenSPARC is just a fixed IEEE Standard. There simply wasn't gone be a dynamic Linux like community around OpenSPARC.
What Sun did was amazing, but I think people wanted a fresh start with everything we have learned from OpenSource and OpenHardware over the last 30 years.
Sometimes things just aren't purely technical, sometimes starting something new just builds a community that dynamically drives things forward.
2. Clean slate design, applying latest insights concerning cpu design, virtualization & so on.
3. More a community effort & perhaps more open than other ISAs.
OpenSPARC is (unlike early Sparc cpus) targeted at high-performance server / supercomputer chips.
Similar for OpenPOWER which is mostly an IBM affair. And opened only around the time RISC-V came out.
From what I've read (no personal experience), OpenRISC wasn't that well-designed or lacks RISC-Vs modularity.
So a combination of license, community, ISA design & timing of its introduction.
0. https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/2014/EECS-2014-...
I'll never forgive SiFive for discontinuing the only blobless RISC-V machine (HiFive Unleashed) after shipping only a few thousand units (which they did only because Debian demanded it as a condition of adding support).
HiFive Unmatched ($665) had several thousand units built.
Absolutely no reason to buy an Unmatched now even if you could because the VisionFive 2 (Star64, Mars) are slightly better in almost every way starting at 1/10th the price.
For all we know, it might be the dead-weight 20%.
https://tenstorrent.com/research/the-ojo-yoshi-report-jim-ke...
But yes, Lattner I think went to SiFive. Is/was he still there?
Given the number of layers of management I see on LinkedIn, it seems like they could go through a serious flattening and housecleaning and still have a substantial team that could execute on the right vision.
Apple: obviously not. but then, ARM charges an arm and a leg and they have a history of architecture swaps...
Amazon: with Graviton, very doubtful
Intel: um
AMD: see Intel
Microsoft/Meta/Alphabet: ...maybe? If they started today, they could have a reasonable product by 2030
ARM: 1% probability of a skunkworks product to have the best risc-v CPU once they're something people actually want
NVidia: wanted to buy ARM, announced ARM CPUs like yesterday - but why not, except that people don't care?
Qualcom: most likely option...?
That or they don't expect to sell a meaningful number and this one has been productised as a public proof of capability exercise rather than primarily for the sake of the product itself.
You can buy the same JH7110 SoC in a tablet with docking keyboard&trackpad cover (so pretty much a laptop) for $160 from Pine64 (PineTab-V).
If Microchip could offer a semi-custom chip design business leveraging what SiFive have done, with reasonable minimum order quantities, I think that'd be quite interesting. But I doubt Microchip will pay a billion dollars for such a purchase, they could also probably just go hire away the key engineers for a lot less.
Which is my way of saying... yeah... Microchip buying SiFive? Stranger things have happened.
Do they? I don't think the details of their contract with ARM are public so they might have a very good deal. Also licensing fees are probably a much smaller issue for companies which have very high margins.
Given Apple’s very special relationship with ARM, and their culture of control, and them literally being a flagship standard bearer on the performance segment I’d be shocked if they paid anywhere near market rate (not that their licensing is even market-available but you get what I’m saying).
Not to mention, ARM is about to destroy the market by trying to backtrack on all their licensing. They now want per device royalties paid by the device manufacturer instead of chip maker to get a larger slice of the pie. And they are basically moving to kill Qualcomm's licenses and IP out of spite in a lawsuit.
I thought they could basically do whatever they wanted with the instruction set.
That would mean that at a minimum they still pay for some of the Cortex M cores that are in their SoCs.
And there is no way that any company gets a ‘forever’ and ‘all future IP’ license just because they had an early shareholding.
> Apple pays nothing, because they do not license ARM cores in any way, instead having a full royalty-free license for ARM ISA (and afaik covering updates too) since before ARM got big.
Meanwhile I recall start of RISC-V hype being, among other things, Western Digital dropping a ton of investment money into it just to escape ARM license costs.
I remember the WD announcement. They have open sourced the cores now I think. If you're shipping millions of drives those fees will add up.
I do not know if it matters to the RISC-V ecosystem if someone picks up the pieces, but for the employees involved it does.
They even have a pipecleaner chip using a SiFive core with all the rest being Intel IP.
RISC-V could be their ticket into the phone space.
Finally, Intel knows x86 sucks. They've tried FOUR different times to move off of x86 (iAPX 432, i960, i860, and EPIC). Every one has failed spectacularly.
RISC-V offers an offramp. Patent all the best methods of combining x86 and RISC-V on a chip the release your backward compatible RISC-V + x86 chip. Businesses will buy that chip for decades to remain backward compatible and your patents will guarantee you another 20 years of profits.
Maybe — can’t tell how much is actually news and how much is surmise.