Show HN: Roadmap – A Personal Growth Game for Social Anxiety | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Roadmap – A Personal Growth Game for Social Anxiety

roadmaptogrow.com

141 pointstolarewaju371 comments

Apps that tempt people into placing their mental health issues, and the state of those issues, into networked devices designed to collect and leak their private data like a sieve is just irresponsible. I'm sure advertisers and data brokers would love to have this kind of information, but it's probably better for people who already have struggles with mental health if companies aren't exploiting those struggles for profit.

Even if you don't plan on selling that data, it's operating on a platform that can't be trusted and is itself designed to exploit users.

I don't understand why you're being downvoted. This is absolutely an issue of today's mobile devices.

I suspect that at least a few people here earn a living by working on apps designed to collect detailed information about the mental health issues of users and they'd rather not be reminded of the fact that all of that data is being/will be used against those same users at every opportunity for the rest of their lives.

Do you believe that this app has been designed to leak users private data and exploit its users?

I didn't even see a privacy policy (not that those are in any way binding), but even it isn't doing that today who knows what will happen to the data they're collecting/have collected in the future, and like I said, smart phones aren't secure or private and they are designed to exploit users.

If you need help with your mental health, please talk to a medical professional where you have at least some measure of protection under the law instead of handing real-time records of your struggles and vulnerabilities over to under-regulated companies looking to prey on you by using that very same information.

It's a shame that it is this way. These apps can provide immense value, but due to under-regulation we cannot consume these apps with comfort.

New user-protection laws in areas like mental health are strongly needed.

Hm, they do collect user and usage data and they say they might share it with others.

https://www.roadmaptogrow.com/privacy.html

It's unfortunate. We’ve made a similar app (to combat sugar addiction), but we made a conscious decision to avoid collecting any information we don't have to.

Our privacy policy is just that we get the data App Store shares with us and that when a user sends us an email we are going to keep that email.

> We’ve made a similar app (to combat sugar addiction), but we made a conscious decision to avoid collecting any information we don't have to.

That was intriguing to me (especially the respectful data collection). Found the app through your profile, but it’s not available in my country.

Yes, currently I need to sign some new agreement because Apple changed the terms and put it back on App Store. I will try to remember and let you know, thanks for the interest.

Hey. This is a good callout. Honestly, I should have done more due diligence with generating privacy policies before this. I do not have any plans to sell user's data. I wrote my full thoughts on that in my reply to the top comment.

But we do store data in the cloud and use analytics to understand usage data. So technically, I am disclosing certain data with those companies.

* first name

* the type of step you took (ex. Commenting on a social media post)

* email address

The data that is collected is to understand how people are using the app, if it's helping them overcome Social Anxiety, and to contact them for stuff.

This thread has made me realize that I need to re-work the privacy policy. Most policies are made to be pretty unclear and actually obfuscate what will actually be done with data. I hate reading those and just want to know:

* What data is collected & why

* Where it's being sent

If anyone has other concerns, you can drop me a line at teeoh@roadmaptogrow.com. I am quite committed to being upfront with this -- even if people don't like the all of the policy.

Also, an anxious person won’t use this app if there is any chance of his data leaking outside. For example, I couldn’t start my personal calendar until I found a way to have it 100% locally via Obsidian plugin.

People are anxious about different things. Most anxious people aren’t anxious about data privacy and security.

Apart from having your data locally hosted on your phone, what else would put your mind at ease?

Maybe touching some grass and freeing yourself from these shackles would actually improve your life? Constantly worrying if some data is gathered you that could be used to gasp better target advertisements for you probably is affecting that mental state a lot more than you can to admit.

You can go to absurd lengths to try and tie down your data, but at the end of the day your data isn't that interesting. Just run adblocking software and you are set.

This is nonsense. I’ve had to deal with bills coming in my name because someone got hold of my credit card and address. It’s absolutely stressful and will make you feel helpless. What about people denied insurance because of their Amazon purchases? People with bad mental health being harassed because their data leaked? Doxxing, iCloud hack photo leaks, people affected by leaks of key government IDs, etc.; how are you even suggesting that one shouldn’t worry about their data getting in the wrong hands? What kind of happy feel-good reality do you live in… Ads are the least of one’s concerns when it comes to your personal data.

>I’ve had to deal with bills coming in my name because someone got hold of my credit card and address.

If you can't distinguish between stolen credit card and whatever mental things this app is tracking, what can I say?

That’s not the point. Data being misused or falling into the wrong hands absolutely has a toll on you. If an abused credit card number hurt me that much while I was fighting depression, anything more sensitive can be even worse.

> Constantly worrying if some data is gathered you that could be used to gasp better target advertisements for you probably is affecting that mental state a lot more than you can to admit.

You're either confused or grossly misinformed. It's never been just about showing you ads.

The data collected about you can and will will be used against you in countless other ways. Data brokers sell your info to employers, landlords, and insurance companies. Your private data can be used against you in courtrooms, in divorce proceedings, in custody battles. The data apps collect can get you arrested or make you a suspect for crimes you had nothing to do with (or are only crimes in other states).

Companies are increasingly using your private data to determine everything from how much to charge you vs the next person for the same goods/services, to decide what they'll tell you their policies are vs what they'll tell someone else, and even how long to leave you waiting on hold when you call them.

The data being collected and sold about you never goes away. It will follow you for the rest of your life. You aren't allowed to know who has it, or what they are doing with it, or how accurate it is. You can never know what will prejudice someone against you and what is acceptable today may not be tomorrow.

If you think the data being collected about you is all about what ads you see, then you clearly haven't been paying attention. There is a multi-billion dollar a year industry around the buying and selling the most mundane details of your personal life because not only is your data "interesting", it's making people money hand over fist at your expense.

>Data brokers sell your info to employers, landlords, and insurance companies.

Even if this was the case, why is this an issue? Why would you want to work for employer who cared about anything except your skills? Same goes for landlords (not that you should be renting anyway). And get a better insurance company.

I understand the frustration and mistrust with things like this. I don't know if I can answer every qualm on here. Because honestly, most of them are valid and have examples of companies that have mishandled our data. That being said, I'll say a few things.

1. I will not sell people's mental health data. As someone who has struggled with Social Anxiety (the fear of being judged), the last thing I want is my personal life made public or revealed without my consent.

2. I think this does deserve some eye-roll, since many people say they won't do that at the beginning. But after spending a lot of my life struggling with hiding stuff, there's not a monetary value that could make me do that to someone else.

3. I'm also not really a fan of advertising. I plan on charging for features people actually find valuable. Some people will probably get angry at that too, but a price tag upfront means I don't need to sell you (and your data) behind your back.

There's always a cost to things. I plan on being painfully upfront.

I truly appreciate your comment though. I know going forward that I'll need to be very clear about privacy and data governance to put people at ease. And then, actually stick to what I say.

I'm curious though, are you talking about Apple as the platform that can't be trusted?

I appreciate the effort but can't help feeling the app trivializes and infantilizes the issue of 'social anxiety' with it's one-size-fits-all approach. There may be many reasons a person has social anxiety. Maybe they were severely abused and learned to be fearful of people. Maybe they have autism and find themselves anxious trying to communicate with neurotypical people. Maybe they're just... shy and haven't been in the world enough. We really don't know what the issue is and I do think the context matters if you're trying to help.

Apps like this are asking for trouble because rather than having people invest in an approach that may work (like a clinical psychologist) they try something like this and end up coming away feeling alone and let down. Maybe now the person won't bother to seek real help because they feel it will be more of the same. I think if you're going to venture into ad hoc mental health treatment you ought to know what you're doing. And I can't say I think the author does here.

I fully agree, also on the practical side it's likely there are rational reasons why not to do a certain activity. E.g. about sharing a side project, maybe the person cannot really stand up for an idea, in fact it might be hard to explain without the right context and would stop the project despite being doable. Life isn't a computer game anyway...

I share your concern about using an app to deal with a psychological problem, but I think a counterpoint to your concern about this app being one-size-fits-all is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. The central premise of CBT is that it doesn't really matter what the roots of the behaviour a patient wants to change are. Reprogramming our behaviours is enough.

This is really the opposite of the old Freudian ideas that a therapist must get to the root of the problem (which might have been in childhood) before progress can be made on the neurosis.

Perhaps the author here is approaching social anxiety from the CBT perspective.

> I think a counterpoint to your concern about this app being one-size-fits-all is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy

CBT is absolutely a one-size-fits-all solution though, and in my opinion quite harmful in many ways. The core premise of CBT is more or less "it's all in your head". I'm sure for some people it is, but for many (myself included when I tried it), it is absolutely not all something I could just handwave away with positive thinking.

CBT comes down to just sucking it up and accepting your place in life, when for many people it's that very place in life that is destroying their mental health and the right thing to do isn't to suck it up, it's to make concrete changes to their life and get out of that situation. However, CBT is cheap to provide, so is the darling of health systems the world over. Just do some colouring in while thinking about how great life is really folks, the world burning around you is keeping you warm.

It's a one size fits all approach sure, but only for cases where it's your thinking that is causing the negative state you're in. A state that has left you helpless or otherwise unable to help yourself get out of it.

CBT is about establishing new constructive thought patterns that break that cycle.

Condescending those that need this kind of tool to improve their mental health is unnecessary.

You might not have been in that kind of state (thoughts spiraling deeper and deeper into self loathing and depression for example), and it genuinely was just external circumstances that you needed to change.

Apologies, my intent wasn’t to have a go at people who CBT genuinely helps, I’m sure it’s very effective in many cases otherwise it wouldn’t be such a big thing. I’m projecting my general frustration at the world onto it to an excessive degree.

I've listened to dozens of hours of Dr David Burns' Feeling Good Podcast[1] about CBT, he's in his late 70s and was one of the pioneers of it. I tend to come away thinking of it as a panacea and have to remind myself that diseases are complex and multifactorial and treatments won't work for everyone ...

Then you say "The core premise of CBT is more or less "it's all in your head" [...] it is absolutely not all something I could just handwave away with positive thinking." which is insultingly misrepresenting it, like grandpa disparaging everyone who works on computers in any capacity because "playing computer games all day isn't a real job".

It's nothing to do with handwaving things away, it's not positive thinking, it's not "just" any one trivial idea, and it doesn't come down to sucking anything up or accepting 'your place' (unless that means a terminal disease diagnosis, perhaps). It's as involved, interesting as debugging software - debugging how and why your thoughts generate your feelings - and you don't debug software by handwaving the bugs away or accepting that you will be stuck with broken software forever. There's counter-examples to your claim through the podcast: people who have been helped to get jobs or promotions, to be more effective or less stressed at work, to improve and rebuild their relationships with partners, friends, estranged parents. There's no colouring-in involved and Dr Burns is constantly banging the drum that patients must be tested at the start and end of every session to self-report their feelings in different areas to make sure they are improving because it's too common over the industry for patients to 'suddenly' leave after weeks and weeks of treatment saying "this hasn't helped me at all!" but when it's working well, patients will self-report significant improvements in very few sessions, and if they aren't, change something.

[1] https://feelinggood.com/ - podcast menu, at the top.

You seem dramatically misinformed about CBT. I can understand if you had a bad experience with it. I think the psychologist you work with matters a great deal as do their tools/approaches. But your description of it is inaccurate and I thought worth noting lest you scare anyone away from something which could help them.

Bingo.

It's a mix of exposure therapy and CBT. I understand that people are concerned over the simplified approach. But like most things (therapy included), if it's not simple enough to understand, it doesn't get used.

Many Social Anxiety therapists first go will be exposure therapy -- gradually exposing their clients to fears until they don't feel it as much. We employ a version of this in Roadmap. The levels start out small and then gradually introduce larger steps at the player's pace.

CBT - This practice comes in two parts: identifying the underlying thoughts / beliefs of the anxiety. And then forming skills / behaviors to tackle that.

Social Anxiety is focused on our future failures in front of people. In Roadmap, that central belief is uprooted when we capture your wins and replay them to you over and over.

Instead of focusing on future failures & being discouraged, we rewire the mind to appreciate past wins & build confidence.

First of all, thanks so much for your feedback. You have a fair point that I'll have to consider while building.

And while I agree that the reasons for Social Anxiety may differ, I've found that there is one common root: an extreme desire for approval.

This drives the anxiety. When we want others' approval so bad, we become anxious when thinking about losing it. This fear becomes a discouraging spiral.

Fear of what you think --> Running from opportunities & ruin my life --> Regret & feel more discouraged

And it starts over again. Social Anxiety is discouraging. And so, to combat this, we need encouragement to take even the smallest step. You have no idea how many people I've talked to who were so happy to just be able say hello to someone. Encouragement is the lifeblood of overcoming Social Anxiety.

Ultimately, I'm trying to create a success spiral.

Take a small step --> Celebrate / track your win / see growth --> Get encouraged to take a bigger step

Little by little, this rewires us to let go of people's approval and live fulfilling lives.

I am not a therapist. But I have struggled with Social Anxiety for most of my life and have been involved with helping that community for years now too. This game is also one I've played for the past 7 years -- and it's helped me grow.

Some people may need a therapist. Others need a personal encourager

This is essentially a medical device for administering behavioral therapy to treat social anxiety, and I don't see any indication that it was developed with any kind of input or review from experts in the field. I honestly feel that borders on irresponsible. A review from a psychologist specializing in social anxiety would be a good idea.

TLDR; creator should get a psychologist behind this project to avoid negative views.

Disclaimer: I do not mean to belittle the author of the comment above in any way. I'm sharing my views on why I find it absurd to call a mental health tool like this irresponsible without a greenlight from a psychologist.

I don't understand how people find these things so irresponsible. It's the same with using an LLM for therapy. Many therapists are furious with that, regardless of how effective it has been for many people.

In the same way, the author of the comment above seem to find it irresponsible for the creator of this app to share this tool without having it greenlighted by a psychologist (the establishment). This is despite the fact that the creator has had amazing outcomes with his newfound method of dealing with social anxiety and is now sharing it with the world. In my view, his experience speaks for itself and it is up to users whether they want to trust his words and try it out.

There's a clear tendency to demonize anything that contradicts or hasn't been greenlighted by the establishment.

If you follow this logic to the extreme, we cannot as human beings share recommendations to others based on our own experiences when it comes to mental health.

As absurd as that it, it's probably best for the creator of this app to get a psychologist behind it to avoid this negative discourse.

> It's the same with using an LLM for therapy. Many therapists are furious with that, regardless of how effective it has been for many people.

I doubt therapists would get furious at people getting better, regardless of the mechanism, in the same way that doctors wouldn't be furious about a weird trick to cure rheumatism, the common cold, or any other malady.

I understand this point of view - why shouldn't people share things that have helped them? - but that's why we regulate things like cures for diseases. Taken to an extreme, "here's what helped me" leads to cancer "cures" being hawked all over the internet. To me this app falls somewhere in between "here's how I quit procrastinating" and "here's how I cured my skin cancer." I can say from experience that social anxiety is not always easily treatable, even by your average therapist, and specialists in it have valuable knowledge that I think it would be wise to take advantage of if you're publicizing a treatment.

Thanks!

And yes, I know I'll have to strike a balance between "here's what helped me" and disclaimers. But this essentially expresses my views.

I do understand that there are things I'll need to do to put people's minds at ease and like the author of the comment said, avoid negative discourse.

I don't see the issue personally. You don't need to be a psychologist to set people small achieveable goals and gamify them.

That said, people that reach for this app should probably see a psychologist / psychotherapist first and foremost; while self-diagnosis is valid to a point and apps (or self-help books for that matter) may help and provide comfort, there may be more to one's mental health issues that an app won't fix.

The small goal setting is the happy path of its usage. As you rightfully notice, those actually in need of such app should seek real treatments and gamification could be part of them - if and only if those doctors recommend it. Otherwise I can imagine the app also building (untreated) frustration if some goals are not correct for whatever reason, and also frustration because some would think they get real treatment while they're not. Just guessing as I'm not a psychologist.

Nice app! I have an app in roughly the same vein (both introspection apps) which I’m also releasing. Would love to know your thoughts! https://audiodiary.ai

What framework did you use for this?

I like it! Clean landing page.

I'm also a big fan of practicing gratitude daily. It's great for stress relief and overall well being. I think the audio prompts are an easy way to get people started.

My main feedback would be to get clear on the end result. Is it capturing life's moments or achieving goals?

I'd also consider have a middle section with "How it Works" so people can visualize what they'll be doing. Like a 3 step process.

For the framework, the iPhone app is written in objective-c with a bunch of open source controls from cocoacontrols.com

Thanks for looking!

Really good point as goals have become more important... I consider goals to be future, capturing memories/entries as the past. But also the process of talking to it is therapeutic and I consider that the present.

I want to capture this in its mission statement, so thanks for the feedback. Best of luck with your app.

This is really fantastic! Ofcourse the techy in me wishes for a one time payment to selfhost the data but know it's the openai bits that are expensive :)

I would love a way for this to be fed into my Obsidian daily journal. You're actually inspiring me to see if something similar is available for obsidian.

One small feedback, if I'm on the add an entry page and I swipe back it closes the app.

Also please don't hide the iOS button from me when I'm on Android :) I had to double check from desktop if iOS was available before sending to a friend.

That’s a great idea. Glad you like it! You can actually export your diary on the profile page and it will give you a tree of mp3 and txt entries along with a nice pdf. Hopefully this will be enough for you to work with obsidian.

I keep getting the error "Something went wrong. Please make sure your internet is working and try again" for the past two days.

Any ideas how to fix this?

I love how pressing the 'next' or 'continue' button in the iOS keyboard actually advances the page when you're recording a trip. It's little details like this that make the app so much more pleasant to use.

Thanks so much for the nice feedback! I'm glad you enjoy the little things like I do :)

I probably had social anxiety when I was younger. Being “forced” into social situations (eg choosing to become a manager, choosing to attend business school) helped get over it to a good extent, which I guess is in line with this app.

The key insight in retrospect is that ego and self centeredness play a big role. I used to think people really sit there and judge what and how I say and do. In reality that comes from assuming you are the center of everyone’s world, and you are not. People watch and care less than you think and there’s nothing to worry about.

Glad you were able to overcome it!

Agreed. People are not thinking of us nearly as much as we think

Not every problem can or should be solved with some app. This one is a perfect example.

Often social anxiety is a symptom of an underlying problem. This app seems to try to treat that symptom, which will do no good. If person wants to solve their social anxiety problem they should seek professional help from licensed professional who will try to fix the underlying problem.

I've found that there is one common root for Social Anxiety: an extreme desire for approval.

When we want others' approval so bad, we become anxious when thinking about losing it. This fear becomes a discouraging spiral.

Fear of what you think --> Running from opportunities & ruin my life --> Regret & feel more discouraged

And so, to combat this, we need encouragement to take even the smallest step to break that. Ultimately, I'm trying to create a success spiral.

Take a small step --> Celebrate / track your win / see growth --> Get encouraged to take a bigger step

Little by little, this rewires us to let go of people's approval, build confidence and live more fulfilling lives.

Nothing is perfect, but sometimes simplicity can lead us to believe that it doesn't address a complex root.

Is it all work related goals?

Well... That's all that matters, right? Serving your employer? Adding value?

And having side projects, because doing your job outside of your job is really important for your employer.

LOL. This made me chuckle. It's actually the opposite of what I think a side project is. I was actually referring to things done for my own goals outside of work.

For example, sharing Roadmap would be what I would do for that step

Yeah I didn't realize that the screens made it seem like it was all about work. Most of the categories in the app aren't.

I myself mostly struggle with Social Anxiety outside of work.

This is good feedback though.

Also interested. My social anxieties show the most in every day life situations not so much at work or at least no longer. During company parties it’s the worst. I receive a strong flight reflex and only want to go home. The more people I know better but that doesn’t always help. Alcohol helps but that isn’t an alley I want to follow.

What I found interesting: I traveled the West coast this summer and I have no real problem talking with foreign people in a different language. Maybe it’s because these are meaningless encounters anyway I don’t really understand it. Other interesting fact is, if you ask my friends (which I don’t count many.) they might tell you that they didn’t see this part of me. I can mask it pretty good. My wife sees it a lot. I tend to leave conversations I don’t like or put up phone calls and other things to the very last minute. But at work? I had luck to work very long with the same set of people. That gives me a great trust foundation. Starting somewhere new? Just the thought feels like a nightmare.

One tip i heard from good ol jordan peterson is to force yourself to start making eye contact with people when you notice yourself slipping. It worked very well for me in party and on the street settings because it's a relatively easy task but such a simple gesture really opens the door to further interaction much wider. I never realized how much i was scowling and avoiding eye contact until i saw someone else doing exactly what i did. It was a terrifying experience and research afterwards was how i found this tip. It's very much in the realm of "just try this thing" type advice but i find that's what works best for me. All of a sudden I'm about to cut the spiral at the start and better engage with that "starting things" part of social life. I'm by no means perfect but damn i wish I'd learned more strategies in college when I'd regularly embarrass myself running from interest.

I hope you find a strategy that works for you. I know how impossible it feels to get back in but making eye contact and forcing a smile is something pretty much anyone can do. People want to talk to someone looking and smiling and often times will start the interaction themselves, saving me all the hard work!

Thanks for the tip. I have a winter party coming up and will give it a try. These situations got kinda easier for me during the last month since my team grew so I have more anchors than before.

Nice tip!

Eye contact is hard but crucial

I am the same way! Most of my Social Anxiety comes down to sharing things that are weird about me or confronting people.

I also find it easier to do these things when I don't know the person. With people closer to me, it's actually worse.

Nope. But I will update the screens to show that. It's really any type of thing that people get anxious about. Here are some of the categories

- Speaking in public

- Sharing Ideas

- Going to Social Events

- Disagreeing with people

- Meeting new people

- Asking for help

Looks great. The Apple App Store buttons don’t work. I’d love to download it.

A few testimonials would be worthwhile, perhaps getting a researcher to run an experiment to see how well it works.

Are you sure? Just tested them again and they seem to work. What country are you in? I did have to recently fix the availability in certain countries

On Firefox with uBlock Origin it doesn't work.

I gave it a quick look and it seems like Google Analytics is hijacking the `click` event in the `<a>` tag and it stops working because uBO blocked GA.

Oh wow. Thanks for looking into that. I'll have to fix this

Even the Android app store buttons does not work, looks like they don't even have an Android version ready for people to see as of now, but still they keep the Android play store button.

I thought it was misleading, if they didn't have an Android version ready for people to see, then better not to show the Android Playstore "get it" button on.

I like the gamified approach. I'm starting to think of doing similar for some productivity ideas I have. Too much going on to start something new though.

Ah but you don't have to; there's a number of gamified apps out there already. It doesn't sound like you need any help with productivity if you've already got too much going on though.

Definitely a red ocean market.

I love games. I think they are (when done correctly) the single best way to motivate us to do good for ourselves

I've had great results from vipassana meditation. Any of you experience similar?

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