One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
The Hamas isn't an organization with freedom as its goal. It's goal is strictly holy war (Jihad) and it considers the Palestinian children it kills along the way as martyrs. It has been a cancer on the people living in Gaza and has physically stopped the peace treaty (Oslo accord) from proceeding.
Haaretz recently printed how Netanyahu also was encouraging Hamas as he wanted war and west Bank settlement, not to make deals with Fatah.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8...
https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2086%20English%20... (warning, pdf)
If you want to learn more about the way Palestinians and Hamas interact, look up "Son of Hamas", a book by the Palestinian son of one of the founders of Hamas. Here's an interview with him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v738Wogza0
That's a good start. You can find reports of rockets launched from civilian areas on your own. I'm sure you can find others condemning Hamas. But the reason there isn't more obvious outcry is because Palestinians are largely supportive, and those that aren't don't exactly have robust freedom of speech protections - speaking out can get you killed. And the media doesn't seem to like portraying Palestine as anything other than a monoculture.
Secondly, https://theconversation.com/hamas-was-unpopular-in-gaza-befo...
> Support of armed resistance was not always present. When Hamas openly fought the Palestinian Authority – which governs the West Bank and questioned the legitimacy of Hamas’ victory – and seized control over the Gaza Strip in 2007, over 73% of Palestinians opposed that seizure and any further armed conflict.
> At that time, fewer than one-third of Gazans supported any military action against Israel. Over 80% condemned kidnapping, arson and indiscriminate violence.
> If read over time, polls of Gazans from 2007 to 2023 tell a story. They help make clear that Gazan support for armed resistance grew alongside increasing frustration, anger and a sense of hopelessness with any political solution to their suffering.
It's very easy to judge people born into what is essentially the largest open-air prison in the world for being able to be driven mad, blow by blow by blow. You think you'd fare better?
Unfortunately, today they are weakened due to terrible Israeli policy (specifically by Netanyahu). I hope Israelis understand that mistake but I'm not very optimistic.
I hope that after the dust settles Netanyahu will be gone and who ever is in charge will come to a reasonable agreement with the PLO. However, I'm not very optimistic. I think they have a more justified claim since the west bank has been expanding settlements (against Israeli law).
In this conflict their goal was to start a regional war by inflaming Jordan, Egypt, etc. This would make them dissolve the peace agreement and go back to an all out war. To do that they need Israeli war crimes at a terrible scale especially against their own civilians.
They are using the bombings as propaganda to further their goals. Netanyahu is an idiot who (as usual) gives them exactly what they want. Unfortunately, eliminating them is nearly impossible as they are deeply embedded in civilian areas.
What I can see your comment is some version of, these savage people are forcing nice people at the Isreali army to make war crimes. So the victims in this story are the poor Isreali soldiers who have to kill all these people and might suffer emotionally as a result!!
[1] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
If they were fighting for a Palestinian state they would have collaborated on the Oslo accord which was leading there. Or they would have waited for the state to form and then taken over that state.
I suggest you read the link that you provided. Read it. E.g.
> Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah in the north to Umm al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people.
They want the entire country. Not a separate state of their own. They know they can't get to their goal with a direct conflict against a far superior fighting force, so they use this approach.
> No one is ever forced to make war crimes.
I didn't say that. I said the Hamas is hoping for that or at least something they can present as war crimes. It's actually pretty easy to incite violence and rage. Just burning families with their babies alive pretty much does that to people.
> If it is done, the perpetrators are never considered the victims at least in a sane world.
Sane? Have you seen the pictures and read the stories of what they did?
They are now surrounded by a lot of soldiers who read these things and are furious. That's no excuse for war crimes but all it takes are a few soldiers who go a bit too far.
> What I can see your comment is some version of, these savage people are forcing nice people at the Isreali army to make war crimes.
That's very selective reading. Israeli army soldiers did lots of bad things. This is documented mostly by Israeli groups e.g.
And many others. But here's the difference, it's a country of laws. Things get reported and even soldiers can be tried for crimes. Does Israel have a perfect record?
No. But it's pretty good even when compared to other liberal democracies such as the USA.
I never said or implied that the Palestinian people aren't victims. They are caught between the Hamas and Israel. The thing that bothers me is that people blame Israel for this conflict when the blame should be on Hamas first by a HUGE margin then on Israel. There's justified grievances to have against Israel (especially the current administration which is downright criminal), but this should be a footnote after the blame on the Hamas.
Hamas took over Gaza in 2007. Osolo accords was in 1993. That's 20 years of Israel not doing anything to actually give Palestinians a state after they sign the accords. Not only that but literally they build many settlements inside the Palestinian territories, and it is still expanding until today [1] and recently as this year they expand new settlements [2] . Not to mention the violence and terror that the armed settlers are spreading (i.e [[3] [4]).
> They want the entire country. Not a separate state of their own. They know they can't get to their goal with a direct conflict against a far superior fighting force, so they use this approach.
They believe the entire land is theirs and there is an argument that they were stolen from them. We can argue about that, but there are people in Israel who also think that this is their entire land (And it is a fact that the vast majority of Israeli people came from other places). Also, they displaced Arab population and keep doing that to expand settlements. But lets pass this point and move to another important thing.
> I didn't say that. I said the Hamas is hoping for that or at least something they can present as war crimes. It's actually pretty easy to incite violence and rage. Just burning families with their babies alive pretty much does that to people.
Aren't we past the point of explaining that burning people and beheading people are false claims that even Biden spread? [5] But ironically, this is actually happened to Palestinian family by Israeli settlers in west bank in 2015 [6] and here is another one [7] . Which city in Israel would you suggest gets flattened as a price of that? (Rhetorical question, if that is not obvious enough)
> Sane? Have you seen the pictures and read the stories of what they did?
I have seen a lot of fake photos and claims. I'm not saying that there were no civilians in Israeli side were killed, and I'm against that. But the Israeli war crime and carpet bombing of Gaza where hundreds of children are dead and thousands are killed is much worse, and what's crazy is that the world is letting this continue on a daily basis.
> They are now surrounded by a lot of soldiers who read these things and are furious. That's no excuse for war crimes but all it takes are a few soldiers who go a bit too far.
Can't we say the same things about Palestinian fighters. Well their people are killed, homes takes and bombed for decades. Can this logic extend to them, and some of them will not act according to what should happen. Or it is just easy to just extend that to all people. Isn't that what happened with every resistance movement in the world?
Again, to be clear, I'm against these actions. And even don't like Hamas for many reasons. But I just try to follow your logic. If you consider actions are terror. Apply these criteria to all sides. Don't say "takes are a few soldiers who go a bit too far" to describe war crimes by one side.
> There's justified grievances to have against Israel (especially the current administration which is downright criminal), but this should be a footnote after the blame on the Hamas.
A footnote, why? Because Arab blood is much cheaper for you than Israeli one? Specially that civilian's death toll is much higher on their side.
That's a barbaric statement.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/29/world/middleeast/israel-w...
[3]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-raci...
[4] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/3/israeli-settler-atta...
[5] https://agrdailynews.com/2023/10/12/white-house-backtracks-o...
[6] https://imemc.org/article/israeli-court-rules-to-dismiss-con...
This is pretty detached from the facts. The accord was going well. Then Hamas started blowing up busses, coffee shops and just shooting up restaurants. Thousands died through suicide bombings etc.
This drove a stake through the accord. As a result Benjamin Netanyahu used the bombings to rise to power and destroy the remaining chances of a state. He later on explained that he specifically supported the Hamas to destroy the chance of a Palestinian state. He's a terrible person, no doubt. But there were two sides of terrible and he would never have risen to power without the Hamas doing their part.
> And it is a fact that the vast majority of Israeli people came from other places
That is no longer the case. The vast majority of Jews were born in Israel by this point. I think it stopped being true by the 80s or so.
Also this ignores all the Jews chased away from Arab countries after the formation of Israel so this went both ways.
> Aren't we past the point of explaining that burning people and beheading people are false claims that even Biden spread?
THESE ARE NOT FALSE CLAIMS. I didn't say beheading I said burned alive holding their children. This is a fact. Friends of my spouse were in their house (with 3 little daughters) as it was set on fire. Their village had 450 people. It has under 200 now.
These were peace loving people. One of the people there who was kidnapped as an 80 year old guy who used to drive cancer patients from Gaza for treatments in Israeli hospitals. A family living there used to organize an annual event of flight kites next to the border for friendship with the Palestinian people. These are not "settlers" who steal land. They were murdered in the most brutal way possible. Two kids (6 and 9) were hiding in a closet under the body of their mother to survive after their unarmed father was shot. Their 3 year old sister is in Gaza.
> But ironically, this is actually happened to Palestinian family by Israeli settlers in west bank in 2015
That is terrible and I'm well aware of that since it was reported a lot in the press. The guy responsible for that was caught and considered a terrorist. He was tortured and gave a confession. He is 100% a Jewish terrorist and he's in prison in isolation. Rightly so.
> I have seen a lot of fake photos and claims.
I know quite a few people personally. Israel has free press and international journalists were allowed into those regions so they can see. The number of testimonials is huge.
Unlike the Hamas which often lies (e.g. in the case of the Hospital in Gaza), Israel tends to have a better record. Not perfect for sure. But much better when it comes to the truth.
> Can't we say the same things about Palestinian fighters.
Yes we can. Worse. Bibi has let the Hamas run Gaza for decades. Their children programs were remarkably anti-Israeli and insane.
> But the Israeli war crime and carpet bombing of Gaza where hundreds of children are dead and thousands are killed is much worse, and what's crazy is that the world is letting this continue on a daily basis.
I think bombing is bad and doesn't help Israel. Having said that it is by no means worse.
Israel doesn't carpet bomb. Israel uses accurate ammunition's and the Hamas's numbers were often shown as lies, without external objective verification this can't be trusted.
Israel tracks mobile phones in Gaza and bombs areas with the minimal amount of civilian presence to minimize the damage to civilians. In fact, it threw an amount of bombs that is unprecedented on a relatively small area. Yet the number of deaths is still relatively low when taken into consideration.
Notice that during all of these bombings the Hamas keeps firing missiles and sending drones. It's still holding 200+ hostages many of which are children and elderly. If it wanted to stop this they could surrender, release some of the hostages etc. They specifically made a choice to put the people of Gaza in harms way, Israel is trying to fight these EVIL monsters who have complete disregard to human life.
> Apply these criteria to all sides.
I do. I'm 100% for a two state solution and I'm 100% on board with blaming Israel for the things it did wrong. It's part in f*ing up the Oslo accord, the settlements etc. It did many things wrong and keeps doing these things (cutting off the water, bombing to this extent etc.). But the Hamas must be destroyed completely, both for Israel and the Palestinian people. As long as it exists we can't move forward.
> > There's justified grievances to have against Israel (especially the current administration which is downright criminal), but this should be a footnote after the blame on the Hamas. > > A footnote, why? Because Arab blood is much cheaper for you than Israeli one? Specially that civilian's death toll is much higher on their side. > > That's a barbaric statement.
You made that statement. I said it's a footnote because the Hamas is pure evil. Israel is more complex.
The Hamas must be destroyed for the Palestinians sake. They have complete disregard to the lives of Palestinians just as they are murderous towards Jews. Many arabs and beduin who lived in that area tried to help the people killed by the Hamas and many of them paid with their lives. The Hamas just kills with no distinction.
Did Israel do bad things as a country. Yes. But so did the PLO. Yet, both can be reasoned with and have redeeming qualities. The Hamas has no such qualities. As a liberal and a humanist I don't say this often, but there are a few cases where you run across pure evil. The Hamas is one of those cases. It's a cancer on the Palestinian people. The people supporting it from the outside are useful idiots in its service.
Because that would make them freedom fighters, and it’s important to make sure that the Palestinians are never, ever validated in any of their grievances. It’s a key step in dehumanization.
Ahmad Sa'adat is a "military fighter"? At the age of 70? He has been in Israeli prison for years.
French Resistance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance
And since when does Israel avoids civilians? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_Israeli_attacks_...
Always? They have been very clear about trying to avoid civilian casualties. Saying they are not always successful doesn't prove anything when you are fighting an entrenched enemy that is using human shields.
Far be it from me to defend everything that Israel does. But even during the current bombings Israel tracks cellphone signals to try and bomb areas with minimal civilian presence. There's a huge difference between collateral damage and explicitly targeting civilians.
Israel tried to let more Gazans into its borders to work and reduce the burden on the people living there (not enough but it was improving) the Hamas chose murder with complete disregard to the lives of the Palestinian people in Gaza. They are WAY worse than anything the French resistance did, and they were fighting damn nazis.
(At least, they are currently hailed as freedom fighters by one side in that conflict. The Palestinians condemn them, but nobody cares what they think.)
* Israelis didn't start that war
* Israelis were surrounded and attacked on all sides. They won.
* Many Arabs stayed and were invited to stay. They enjoy equal votes, supreme court positions and freedom of religion.
* Jews living in Arab countries were chased out and lost all their property too.
Furthermore, the occupied territories is the area we're talking about. That area belonged to Jordan/Egypt respectively. None of them wanted them back during peace talks. These people didn't have freedom before Israel came in.
Israel TRIED to make a peace treaty. The *HAMAS* destroyed that treaty by blowing people up. Its stated goal is the destruction of Israel. It is NOT about freedom in any way. It's about murder. Plain and simple...
The only way Palestinians will ever be free from Israel is if the Hamas is destroyed.
Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that it's okay for freedom fighters to displace a civilian population at gunpoint, as long as it's the other side who started the conflict?
That first war had war crimes on both sides. Lots of them. The Israeli side won. If it had lost I'm sure the Jews would be in a far worse situation than the Arabs are in the state of Israel.
The Jews started coming in the 19th century and purchased lands. Many areas were bought during those years. During that time the land wasn't "owned" by any country so there was never a Palestinian country. It was controlled by the Ottoman empire and then by the English.
When the English left they divided the land between both factions giving the Jews a piece after the horrors of the Holocaust. Arabs started a war and lost.
I have empathy to the plight of the Palestinians. They shouldn't pay for the sins of their and our forefathers. But it's been multiple generations by now. It's fair to have a grievance, it's stupid to pick up arms when that hasn't worked well in the past.
The Palestinian identity is definitely a modern creation, shaped primarily as a reaction against Israel. But it's not too different from the notion of a Jewish People who need a separate homeland, shaped by European anti-Semitism.
So. How does this contradict anything I said?
Ashkenazi Jews came earlier and bought up land. That was land that was ruled by the Ottoman empire and later the English. We were discussing Palestinians driven from their home during the independence war. During that same time Mizrahi Jews were driven away from their homes.
> The Palestinian identity is definitely a modern creation, shaped primarily as a reaction against Israel. But it's not too different from the notion of a Jewish People who need a separate homeland, shaped by European anti-Semitism.
Again. I don't see how this collides with anything I said. I very much believe in a two state solution and have a lot of empathy to the plight of the Palestinian people. The Hamas is evil though, not a freedom fighting organization.
I think there are plenty of legitimate things Israel can be blamed for (settlements, treatment of the PLO post Oslo, etc.). Arguing over history is pointless, both sides have deep victimization grievances. The Hamas is only making matters worse for the Palestinians and harder for those of us trying to bring about a Palestinian state.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
Those separatists were justifiably motivated, by the reality of the Holocaust, and the endless series of pogroms in pre-WWII Eastern Europe, to want a place of their own.
There was a certain kind of Jewish settler who decided that moving slowly back, and doing so in a friendly fashion to the people they were necessarily displacing, was unacceptable. it did not matter that other people had been living for centuries on the land they felt was theirs. It did not matter to them that most Jews were forced out of Palestine by ancient Rome.
I think a lot about the establishment of Israel in 1948, and the Landback movement here in the states. Is there a statute of limitations on giving land back to a displaced people? It feels like there should be.
Now I don't believe Hamas is actually fighting for freedom, but if they were and israel was unwilling to negotiate it's easy to see how they decide to massacre civilians.