New Requirements to Travel to Europe | Hacker News Reader

New Requirements to Travel to Europe

travel-europe.europa.eu

35 pointsjustinzollars111 comments

For those who don't know, the US requires every foreign visitor to get approved for entry via ESTA, which is basically a visa in every conceivable way except that they don't call it one. It's also essentially identical to ETIAS, the system mentioned in this article.

IMO, ESTA is and has always been always a blatant violation of the Visa Wavier treaty, so it's not unreasonable for Europe to respond in kind.

The fact that the US did it first doesn’t make it reasonable. Both policies can be bad on their own terms, and either way, the costs will almost entirely be borne by people who had nothing to do with drafting the US policy in the first place.

What course of action do you suggest the EU take if not this one?

What is the correct solution to this problem?

Same thing they always do: issue a declaration of deep concern!

what they were doing before: nothing.

Do you not view this as a problem, or do you not understand why the EU may view the status quo as a problem?

For more on the downsides of visas and tourist registration requirements, see https://ideas.repec.org/a/spr/jecfin/v40y2016i4d10.1007_s121...

Meanwhile, Africa is happily going in the opposite direction https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38127560

Sure, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not sure you can reduce a complex political situation down to such a simplistic maxim.

That's like saying that the US was wrong to enter into WW2 because two wrongs don't make a right and war is bad therefore the US is bad.

It's a bit weird that they're only doing this now, since ESTA's been a thing for 16 years. I always assumed that non-EU visitors already needed a visa since every other country seems to demand it.

The European Commission should’ve implemented visas for the US as they require visas from some of the EU’s members.

They made Canada waive visa for all members by threatening to impose visas on Canadians, but are too chicken to do the same with the US.

The EU parliament has voted that it should be done multiple times, but the Commission refuses to act.

The reason why Canada imposed visa requirements on some EU countries:

> Canada imposed the visa on the two countries as well as the Czech Republic to stop an influx of bogus refugee claimants among ethnic Roma applicants.

> The Czech visa requirement ended last year, but Immigration Minister Chris Alexander said at the time the Romanian and Bulgarian ones would remain because of continued concerns over human smuggling and organized criminal gangs.

* https://macleans.ca/news/canada/visa-obstacle-looms-as-harpe...

Starting in 2025 Canadians will need to get an ETIAS:

> From 2025, Canadians will need to register with ETIAS to enter the Schengen Area, Cyprus, Bulgaria and Romania without a visa.

* https://www.etias.ca

The verbiage that ETIAS "is not a visa" is strong:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Travel_Information_an...

> https://www.etias.ca/

> Details are automatically screened against a series of security databases.

Remind me of those blacklists that airlines and banks have, which you can end up in one for a comment in social media..

> The rules of travel to Europe have changed. Starting in mid-2025, some 1.4 billion people from over 60 visa-exempt countries are required to have a travel authorization to enter most European countries.

I don't remember voting for this....

If you didn't vote in your country's election, then yeah, you probably didn't vote for it. But otherwise, you did. It's just that Europe operates under representative democracy rather than direct democracy.

Technically if your voted representative didn't get elected then indeed you didn't vote for this. But the elected person technically still represents you as an equal rights citizen. So yes, your representative can do things for which you didn't vote.

The agreement we have in a representative democracy is that even if someone who didn't vote wins, they still represent me and I accept this, as otherwise it wouldn't be much of a democracy at all :)

They said that they didn't vote for this, not that whoever passed it didn't officially represent them.

It's literally immigration control, which is what the new version of the PPE stand for (it moved quite a bit right on this particular issue), and what a lot of european country voted for.

Do you remember not voting for all the other things you didn't vote for too but became law because that's the kind of society that you live in and you know that?

I assume you're in Europe. Voting and democracy aren't it's strong point. Did you vote for Ursula Von Der Leyden as your president?

Maybe I'm just blind, but I wasn't able to find what ETIAS stands for anywhere on this website dedicated to ETIAS (including under "What is ETIAS"). For anyone else wondering, it's "European Travel Information and Authorisation System"

This also makes me wonder (and doesn't seem to discuss anywhere) about "special" Turkish passports (green passports that government workers and their families can get that allow visa free travel to many countries including the EU). It's unclear to me if they would need ETIAS as well. And I imagine there's oodles of other edge cases like that where people will be confused and stuck at borders

Our children are US citizens and Spanish citizens and we live in the US. When we book flights to Spain to visit family we always use their US passport details to ensure we aren’t denied boarding returning home due to lack of an ESTA. I can already imagine the inverse and an over-zealous ticket or gate agent denying boarding to Spain because of no ETIAS and not accepting the physical Spanish passport because it’s not on the electronic reservation.

I don't think what you said in the last sentence is going to be an issue. Each check-in can be handled separately: you check-in to Spain with the Spanish passport, you check-in to the US with the American passport. There will probably be a box in the reservation system to say "I don't need ETIAS/ESTA"

The air carrier is responsible for taking the passenger(s) back if they are denied entry into a country.

So the airlines will deal with many people falsely checking the box (“I am a blank; I don’t need it!”) and remove the checkbox immediately.

Yeah, Im dual US/Swedish citizen, and the check in is isolated each time. I present my US passport when going to the US and my Swedish Passport when going to the EU. No biggie and never had any trouble throughout my life.

So in the Schengen logs, it seems like you keep entering Sweden (or wherever you transit) but never leave it?

Or do you show your Swedish passport on leaving Schengen?

Not OP, but in my experience they will look for a Schengen entry stamp during the exit control.

Showing e.g. a Swedish passport for border entry and exit, and a US passport for check-in works fine.

I agree this would be absurd - that’s my point. But I have also heard of all kinds of bizarre things like this happening because the penalties for the airline are so high. Mostly flying Iberia there seems to be a focus on the document you show the airline matching the one in their system and you can only add one to their system.

As an adjunct to this, the UK, which might have joined this scheme if it was still part of the EU, is now developing its own system called the ETA (Electronic Travel Authorisation) [1]. It'll cost £10 for two years. Currently only in use for a couple of middle eastern countries, but will be rolled out more widely in the future.

[1]: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electronic-travel-authorisation-...

It looks like part of this is to do with some Balkan nations and non-biometric passports.

For instance, coming from Bosnia if you had a biometric passport you would need ETIAS, otherwise a full actual visa, but if you are actually on a Bosnian passport you must use ETIAS, which implies you are compelled to use a biometric passport.

This makes me think there is something off about users of non-biometric passports in that area.

Aside from standardizing this process across the entire EU, this seems to be a tourism tax which will bring in several billion euros yearly.

The same thing US does. Isn't it like 70 bucks every couple of years for ESTAs applications?

ESTA costs $21 since May 2022, before it was $14.

$21 USD

Thanks, the last application I did was in 2019 and couldn't remember. Thanks for correcting me!

> ETIAS travel authorisation is an entry requirement for visa-exempt nationals travelling to any of these 30 European countries. It is linked to a traveller’s passport. It is valid for up to three years or until the passport expires

Europe is getting its own version of the Visa Waiver Program.

This seems more analogous to ESTA than the Visa Waiver Program. Europe has already had the waiver in place for exempt countries for a while.

> You will need a payment card to cover the EUR 7 fee. You can use a variety of online payment options to pay the fee.

And no cash options?

If you can pay your plane ticket online I'm sure you can do so with the ETIAS as well.

People still use cash in the modern world? I haven't needed it in years. Don't know anybody else either (Estonia).

A huge percentage of daily life in Germany (Europe's biggest economy) and Austria is conducted in cash.

https://www.bundesbank.de/en/press/press-releases/payment-be...

Well Germany isn't really considered modern by northern EU standards, as would most northern EU citizens tell you. Don't know about Austria however.

In Germany you can pay by card basically anywhere - with the phone or watch as well in most/many shops as far as I know. Not sure all this criticism makes sense (no I am not German).

There are also historical reasons why Germans are concerned about the possibility of being tracked, which apparently not everyone sees the dangers of.

> In Germany you can pay by card basically anywhere - with the phone or watch as well in most/many shops as far as I know.

This simply isn't true, outside of large chains or supermarkets. Many smaller businesses like pubs, "kiosks", barbers, non-chain restaurants, and so on, are cash only.

It's a combination of tax avoidance and trying to avoid the insane level of paperwork needed for bascically every aspect of life, but especially if you have a business, no matter how small.

Source: live in Germany, near a large metro area.

> This simply isn't true, outside of large chains or supermarkets. Many smaller businesses like pubs, "kiosks", barbers, non-chain restaurants, and so on, are cash only.

I have a different experience. I pay by card even for < 1 eur things almost everywhere (from time to time): sometimes I just have no cash with me anymore and I am totally ok. This has changed dramatically in the last 10 years, and I wish that the mainstream theme was different than "wooooow in Germany they still accept cash-only". Until now I only experienced this "cash-only" limitation in very few places.

My recommendation, though, is to always have some cash on you, especially if you don't know where you're going. But I would do the same in any other country in the world.

> especially if you don't know where you're going.

I meant: if you're not familiar with the place you're going to, or which way to take, etc.

In Denmark, I can count the days I've had cash on me in the last decade on one hand.

I remember seeing a 100kr bill a couple of weeks ago, thinking how weird/unusual it was to see it. I didn't really remember how they looked like.

Many smaller businesses like 'kiosks' acting as sort of post office for all the parcel services now, where you can get or send your packages(except letters). Meaning they have the infrastructure for cashless anyways. Like non-chain restaurants and so on, also do.

Source: lived in Germany, at the outskirts of a large metro area, still visiting every few weeks to months into my own appartment, which I didn't abandon.

Last spring, I stopped at a nice brunch place in central Hamburg. The waitress spoke English and asked where we were from, etc. Usual touristy stuff.

When it was time to pay, we were surprised to hear only local German cards were accepted. I couldn’t use Visa, Mastercard, anything. It never occurred to them to warn us. I had to walk around for 25 minutes on the hunt for an ATM to pay my due.

What was a nice lazy Sunday morning turned into an annoying time travel back into the early 90s.

This I have to say can be more common. Not entirely sure what the reason can be, but some places do not accept Visa/CC but only the EC card (which is essentially the local debit card).

Meanwhile, more and more places accept NFC payment.

You can go cashless in Austria if you want to.

You can also go cash-only in Austria, if you want to.

Austria is one of those rare places in the Free World where personal agency and responsibility are still, relatively, extant throughout society ..

If you want a counterpart, in Sweden almost no one uses cash and apart from hospitals almost no one is obligated to accept it.

but we germans also severe backwards-oriented to begin with. all kinds of esoteric garbage in daily life is shared and believed in, most things of the modern world is looked at with mistrust, and so on.

the bigger/international cities like hamburg or berlin are a stark contrast however, drive like 50 miles outside of them and not much has changed during the last 100 years, except for buildings/infrastructure in general.

I carry like 20€ with me at all times for when I have to deal with these situations in an emergency, but turns out I increasingly don't need to replenish this cash in my wallet for months.

When I visit Germany, I am astounded at how many of my German coworkers dislike fresh air in the office. A beautiful 25c sunny day with a nice breeze, and I opened the window near my desk. Within five minutes, someone has closed it and given me a dirty look (no, the air conditioning is not on.)

yeah, many people here actually believe that you get sick when you're in an air stream. Like between two open windows, or within an AC. But then go home and work in their windy garden for hours.

In Lithuania it's also:

* drafts as you mentioned will get you a stiff neck (and absolutely it's not your crappy pillows)

* going outside with wet hair

* not wearing scarf, hat and gloves outside whenever there's slightest weather imperfection

* not wearing socks and slippers indoors, despite being heated to comfy 22.5C

* air conditioning, heat pumps, electric heating or any sort of fan blowing directly at you

* getting your feet cold and wet

* just merely breathing cold air indoors

bonus:

* treating feverish infant by wrapping them in additional layers and bedsheets

This is shared across most intellectuals. Likely more embedded than some of the human rights we cherish in west. My family screamed, nearly disowned and accused me of "killing" my kids because of above. Even many in medical field believe this, tho actual doctors will say it's horseshit when pushed. And, no, the actual words from doctors mouth has never changed their view either.

Germany is also the birthplace of homeopathy, which is why German health insurers cover this mumbo-jumbo to this day.

Don’t forget the invention of the healing practitioner (Heilpraktiker).

don't get me started on this bullshit :-) a shitton of people genuinly believe in the "magic" here to the point its heresy pointing it out in public at times.

Maybe because allergic to pollen?

That’s true, same with England, but the Scandinavian countries (and others around them) are essentially cashless now. I’ve lived in Sweden for three months and yet to see a single note (literally!).

Yeah, I'm in Sweden. Don't know when I last used cash (well, apart from when I was in Berlin). I have cash in my wallet and some more laying around in case there'd be a failure in the payment systems, but that hasn't happened in years.

Daily life, sure Germany is still backwards like that, but not when it comes to flights or other travel expenses.

Pay cash at a restaurant in Germany and ask for a receipt (I have an expense report to fill out) and they look at you like you're a dead rat in the street.

Ask for a receipt at the hotel, and you better make sure you ask for an "non-German" receipt, otherwise you get a six page dossier.

Germany is not a good benchmark. Germany is scared of exploring the future.

Germany recent past taught its citizens to value their privacy.

On the other hand, the German government is spying on AfD, now one of the biggest parties in the country.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/03/german-intelli...

If you are referring to WW2, that was 4+ generations ago.

Stasi was active until 1990.

Not WW2 but life in East Germany, which many people remember all too well.

From the information I could gather the only payment option is debit/credit card. If this is accurate it looks particularly exclusionary to me because one cannot expect each and every one of the 1.4 billion (according to the linked page) affected people have or can have a bank account.

Also this creates unwritten requirements to traveling to the EU: 1. You must have a bank account. 2. Mastercard/Visas/$otherPaymentProcessor will be aware of your application.

I don’t have an issue with these payment methods being available, I take issue with them being the only available methods. Countries’ immigration departments have no business compelling travellers into a contract with a private entity (the bank), and I also believe their dealings with european immigration departments shouldn’t be exposed to foreign payment processors.

At the very least cash payment at a local embassy should be an option.

I'm sure friends or travel agent can pay for you? And if anyone in the embassy has any shred of empathy (they tend to as they deal with lost people all the time) I'm sure they would too.

Just come back from Japan, cash is still king there. It's a weird country, so advanced yet so backwards on some stuff. I haven't dealt with so many coins for years.

You should be aware that Estonia is a tiny country and not representative of the other 99.99% of the world (albeit in a good way; I'm not from there but have informed many people it's probably the most advanced country in the world as far as domestic life).

not everyone wants to give their identity to every street vendor to buy a taco

How am I giving my identity to a street vendor when I pay without cash?

When the payment terminal asks the EMV chip on your payment card for tag no. 5F20, it will be told the Cardholder Name [1]. That, in connection with your PAN [2], is a pretty stable identifier. (Not if you are using prepaid cards, obviously.)

[1] https://emvlab.org/emvtags/show/t5F20/

[2] https://emvlab.org/emvtags/show/t5A/

What if I pay with my phone? That’s pretty common in the Nordic countries (Swish)

Apple/Google Pay also implement the EMV standards, so at least in theory, it shouldn’t make a difference. In practice, I don’t know and I can’t check, unfortunately. It’s possible that they chose not to implement this particular tag.

I did query the chip on my plastic MC Debit and it definitely reveals my name.

To a street vendor, you don’t. To any authorized government agency that have power to ask the street vendor about the transaction that happened, and the bank for your personal details linked to the credit card number, you do. Also to any interested party who can compile the information from numerous PII leaks.

Plenty in use in some EU countries (Germamy comes to mind).

Like mentioned in another reply here, Germany is quite outdated when it comes to these things, and I wouldn't consider Germany a modern country (by northern European standards).

I was just in Spain and mostly just used a card but, anecdotally, it looked like the norm was paying for meals/drinks with cash. There's a lot of variation in Europe.

Oddly it seems to me the further south you go, the less modern things get. Is there some correlation with the climate or something?

No. Partially, modernity was paid for by other countries and less legacy (some new EU members), the classic Nordics are all high tax and small - so consensus is easy. In large countries the cost of changing things and supporting laggards is also much higher (and a few % opposition is a lot of people in Germany or Italy, for example)

There is just no desire in Germany to go there. That said, why is Estonia still a net EU receiver of funds then?

From what I've heard from people living in Germany, there very much is, but the government is afraid of change, and love bureaucracy to the point that nothing ever actually gets done or changed. That said, Estonia has been an independent country only for the past 30 years, previously under Soviet Union, and within that time we have technologically surpassed Germany in every way possible, and yet Germany, a huge economy and power, seemingly can't put either of those traits to good use for their people. Seems like you are comparing David to Goliath here, and David is winning.

You have done that with a lot of support from the outside and little legacy, but I guess time to cut EU net funding to Estonia now that you are winning.

Germany has a very weird relationship with technology, and, yes, right now it is turning itself into a museum of sorts because change is not popular.

Not sure there is winning if one side has no interest in going there, though.

Little legacy? I'm afraid you are not up to date on how hard it is to improve as an ex-soviet country with a large Russian population, many of them pro-Putin, who would do anything in their power to create corruption and prevent positive change

Little legacy tech compared to what was deployed in the West 30 years ago.

Fair enough

How do you want to put cash into your computer?

Send it in the post, with tracking, then fax the proof of sending it to their head office. If the fax machine is broken request an Avian alternative.

I didn't have the option for cash payment either when applying for my ESTA. So yeah, no cash option.

So, no longer visa exempt, in all but name.

Don't compare the process of going online and filling out a form to applying to an actual visa in a consulate

> Don't compare the process of going online and filling out a form […]

Going online and filling out a form is exactly how you get a visa for (e.g.) NZ:

* https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/preparing-...

All my visas in NZ had to be done via post which was somehow superior experience to using Lithuanian e-government (which are basically extremely hard to access web forms designed pre-mobile era which just lands and some clarks email inbox who will then say "yeah nah you still need to come visit us in the office")

Most importantly: paying an exorbitant fee for adding a row to a database.

$21 for the chance of filling out the ESTA with the exact same data I used the last time.

Why not, plenty of countries offer online visa applications.

This ESTA, sorry ETIAS thing is simply a visa with another name, albeit maybe a 'visa-lite'.

Wasn't this slated to start in 2024? Was it delayed?

One reason given is that it was delayed so it wouldn't interfere with travel to the 2024 Olympics in Paris.

"Starting in mid-2025"

Looks like the application process will take a few minutes online. Why is this news right now?

I think this is because of the sketchy way in which passports for various tax havens, Caribbean countries, etc (not mutually exclusive) have been sold and bought and those passports allowed visa-free access to the EU. The corruption in those countries puts the EU borders at risk, hence these new rules.

Sauce: https://www.occrp.org/en/dominica-passports-of-the-caribbean...

It's a tit-for-tat response to ESTA.

It's way cheaper and dure 50% longuer, so i don't know.

Imho it's just another McKinsey idea.

How i envision the discussion:

""" - Most of our illegal immigrants entered legally within our borders, quick find us a new revolutionnary idea!

- Hey, we have this ETIAS idea. bla bla.... .... bla bla... So it's nothing at all like ESTA at all (two hour presentation)

- Nice, here's 5 million """

Yeah, ETIAS has been discussed since Brexit in 2016, I worked for the UK Home Office just after that period and “tit-for-tat” is a lazy and naive response to the issues around human trafficking and other concerns we were trying to address in the UK. The response was obviously delayed by a lot of Brexit negotiation faff, but there’s long been worries about golden passports both within the EU and externally being used to wander in and out of the EU and Schengen.

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