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Comment by anon373839 | Hacker News Reader

I remember hearing or reading a suggestion that many US policing problems would be solved overnight if the law would simply mandate officers to wear dorky uniforms. The “militarized badass in aviators” image attracts the wrong type of people to the job, while a dorky uniform would mean that only those who actually wanted to serve the public would remain. I have no idea if it would work, but I always liked the idea.

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This was for years actual policy in the UK, where most of the cops are unarmed. Using Land Rovers as police cars was considered too military, for example.

Sunnyvale, California, has a combined police and fire department. They train their people for both and they move back and forth. Emergency medical services is in there, too. At one time, their cops wore red blazers with the city insignia.

But consider that Sunnyvale, California has the benefit of a very upscale demographic, no gang activity, low organized crime, etc. What works for one place will likely not apply elsewhere (e.g. no one-size-fits-all solution).

Organized crime (especially drug crime) is a quasi-military force. The police are threatening billions of dollars in illicit profit, and that will not go unchallenged easily.

Police will always need some SWAT and borderline military teams. The question is whether the average street cop needs to be weapon-wielding law enforcement, and I suggest the answer is no.

The danger level goes down when it's known that a cop's power is in their reinforcements. The individual cop would be little danger and doesn't need to be shot.

> Organized crime (especially drug crime) is a quasi-military force. The police are threatening billions of dollars in illicit profit, and that will not go unchallenged easily.

Arguably that should be addressed by a different organisation than the folks who enforce traffic laws and investigate petty theft. The state guard, perhaps?

We do have an Association for Drug Enforcement, but having one government entity cover every bit of gang activity in the nation seems like a lot of effort.

So in Ireland, as mentioned elsewhere, our normal police wear a hi-vis Star Trek uniform, and aren’t generally armed. We also have a few specialised branches for organised crime, terrorism, etc, though; some of those _are_ armed, and have significantly scarier uniforms, and much more extensive training. Same organisation, but totally different role.

Forcing cops to double as firefighters helps a lot to keep undesirable officers out. It forces all cops to be in firefighting shape, which is significantly more difficult that the average police requirements. It also means cops need to be willing to run into burning buildings, which is more danger than the average cop would ever face.

In Utah, at least, all cops are required to also be EMTs. I think understanding a lot about how the body works and how to save a life might also have an effect on how you respond to some events, but I don't know.

Sort of depends on if they have a duty of care and are required to intervene medically.

I think George Floyd is a good case study for reform; Chauvin and all officers should be required to assess for medical emergencies at all times basically and take at least some level of medical action when necessary. So Chauvin should have been required to check for consciousness and then provide aid once finding Floyd to be in medical distress.

What Chauvin and fellow officers did was already in violation of policy. The problem is that they didn’t care, and having extra rules in the policy may help others but not George Floyd. If it weren’t for cameras things would’ve turned out better for those police officers.

In my experience, Sunnyvale cops aren't better than cops anywhere else.

Huh. Finally a reasonable explanation for the new Irish police uniform (which looks suspiciously like a hi-viz version of a DS9-era Starfleet uniform): https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0815/1315736-garda-unif...

That's an amazing uniform

Absolutely incredible

Menlo Park actually tried this - https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/uniform-...

1973, nice

> Abstract

> FOLLOWING A DISCUSSION OF PSYCHOLOGICAL AND SOCIAL FACTORS RELATED TO POLICE-COMMUNITY RELATIONS, THE AUTHOR DISCUSSES THE RATIONALE BEHIND, AND RESULTS OF THIS CALIFORNIA EXPERIMENT. IN 1969, THE MENLO PARK POLICE FORCE CHANGED FROM THE TRADITIONAL MILITARISTIC UNIFORM TO BLAZERS AND TIES, MORE IN KEEPING WITH CIVILIAN MODES OF DRESS. RANK WAS NOT EXHIBITED, NIGHTSTICKS WERE DISPENSED WITH, AND GUNS WERE WORN BENEATH THE BLAZER. RESULTS OF THIS NEW POLICE IDENTITY INCLUDE PEER GROUP ISOLATION, INCREASED INVOLVEMENT IN EDUCATION, INCREASED RECRUITMENT OF INDIVIDUALS WITH COLLEGE DEGREES, AND A DECREASE IN PERSONNEL TURNOVER. A 1971 COMPARATIVE STUDY OF THE MENLO PARK POLICE AND TWO OTHER DEPARTMENTS IN THE AREA INDICATED A DECREASED NEED FOR A SYMBOL OF AUTHORITY AND IMPROVED POLICE-COMMUNITY RELATIONS IN MENLO PARK. DESPITE ATTITUDINAL AND BEHAVIORAL DIFFERENCES, THERE WERE NO DIFFERENCES IN GENERAL PERSONALITY ASSESSMENT MEASUREMENTS. (AUTHOR ABSTRACT MODIFIED)

In the little village of 2000 near me, the 4 cops dress in all black and have a black-on-black motif for their vehicles. Literally, it is black text on a black car with some grey and gold outlining. I'm pretty sure it makes them feel like badasses as they ticket drivers for tinted windows or missing the obscured 35 mph sign a quarter mile after the highlighted and lit 45 mph sign.

longer training too. a two year college degree in policing feels like the minimum. we do that in Canada. Actually train police officers in de-escalation techniques, and in some amount of social work adjacent stuff, like how to deal with people with mental health problems, domestic situations or drug abuse problems in a more intelligent manner.

This also filters out ppl who don't have the attention span or the brain cells to do that, which is a good thing. We also have separate non police folks for parking violations and other more menial stuff.

I agree regarding training: Police officers are expected to deal with all members of the public, some of whom have disabilities or other challenges which should be accommodated accordingly. Having enough police who are sufficiently trained would seem essential.

Bad police officers in Thailand were at one time made to wear hello kitty arm bands. https://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/world/asia/07cnd-thai.htm...

Hello Kitty is popular enough that I worry it might encourage bad behavior

Safety vests and Bobby hats for everyone!

Also a theme in _A Confederacy of Dunces_, but applied to the military.

Swiss Guard is the exception to the rule.

Its a cute theory, but police need to be respected to do their job. A dorky uniform is contrary to that. A police force that is not respected will lead to escalation of violence.

We might not like what I wrote, but's basic human phycology.

>A police force that is not respected will lead to escalation of violence.

Escalation by whom, the police or the citizens?

By both, which sucks either way.

Respect can be earned through repeated professional and trustworthy behaviour - what you are talking about is fear.

For certain types of people, respect can only be achieved via intimidation. Or mean the same thing.

Edit: I think people are completely misunderstanding this post. I made a general statement about humans. Not about policing, not about a country. Just an observation that certain types of people only seem to understand/respect violence.

Not every statement needs to be "unpacked"

If that were true, the appropriate solution would be deploying intimidation techniques against those people, not wearing a uniform that does it to everyone

I am deeply confused by this response. All I did was described authoritarians a little differently.

Considering the totally dysfunctional state of American policing, I think we can longer afford to give police that type of “respect”.

Worked fine in England with _every_ type of criminal, when police were basically wearing a giant tit on their heads.

Respect isn't given to people who look movie-tough-guy-cool, it's given to people who know what they're doing.

When one of the earlier police commissioners was asked why the police don't carry guns, he replied that it would put too much distance between them and the public. The police in the U.S.A. seem to actively be going for that distance.

> it would put too much distance between them and the public

It's not just one person's opinion, either. The British police is (supposed to, it's stretching further from it under the endless cuts) adhere to Peelian principles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

Thanks, that page is super interesting.

> The Metropolitan Police officers were often referred to as 'Bobbies' after Sir Robert (Bobby) Peel

So _that's_ why! :D

And a massive billy club they weren't afraid to bludgeon people with.

this is a bizarre attitude, similar to the one that conflates rehabilitation with punishment and justice with retribution.

I don't know how respected US police currently are, but they definitely lead to escalation of violence. I doubt dorky uniforms would make it worse.

Sorry, I don't respect people who murder innocent civilians without cause or due process. Or people that can arbitrarily seize any amount of your property, forever, with no possible recourse.

Or really tacticool guys in general. They're pretty much always absolute assholes.

Police killings are pretty rare (but unfortunately not sufficiently prosecuted)

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