United Airlines plans to board passengers with window seats first | Hacker News Reader

United Airlines plans to board passengers with window seats first

cbsnews.com

82 pointslxm209 comments

According to recent queuing theory research using a supercomputer, scientists have discovered that the ideal loading strategy is to get loaded at the airport bar.

I probably should have been suspicious by the time I hit "supercomputer" but for some reason I kept on going.

Agreed. But I still laughed

I would like to once again ask people to consider the abundant possibilities inherent in just not going anywhere.

For your reference, the optimal boarding sequence is demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxlZC8BZJ4.

Username checks out. Antarctica airport let’s go!

The article mentions they only plan to do this starting at group 4... So that's

1. All pre boarding (military, families with small children, wheelchairs, etc)

2. Global services

3. Group 1

4. Group 2

5. Group 3

6. Group 4

7. Group 5

I also think Group 2 often seems to me to be the most populous one... that may just be my experience.

I guess now I can see why they'd only save 2 minutes.

Edit: formatting, formatting and more formatting

Group 2 usually includes those that have the United Chase card, anyone with gold status, etc. I agree it's quite populous.

At this point in time, “pre boarding” (military, babies, elderly, “10k and platinum members” , global elite, etc) is about 50% of the airplane

And that’s not even group 1

It’s only 10k and global services in pre boarding. And it’s gotten a lot shorter lately because I think everyone’s covid status extensions ran out (mine did). Group 2 is much longer now

My guess is they’ll keep expanding it to higher groups as they feel out pushback.

It’s definitely more efficient for the airlines. Is it better for the customer? Depends on the segment.

Most budget customers respond only to price and will tend to prefer a lower price even with fewer amenities.

> tend to prefer a lower price even with fewer amenities.

I actually prefer boarding later. Why would I want to spend more time in the cramped plane when I can spend that time in the far more spacious waiting area? Sure, if I had first-class money I’d prefer sitting there, but not even business is nice enough to want to board early ;)

People want to board early because there’s never enough overhead bin space on a full flight

Ah, that makes sense. I guess the flights I’m on that simply is not an issue, at worst one has to use those not directly above one's seat.

Then the real problem that ought to be solved is too many people boarding with too many large bags.

The size of some 'carry-on' baggage of late is getting comical - I've seen some as large as my checked baggage. And then some airlines allow an additional 'personal item' (laptop bag, handbag, etc) as well as the larger carry-on. Add to this an unwillingness to place anything under the seat in front (presumably to safeguard their limited legroom), and you're left struggling to find a place for your modest bag if you board last.

It's just selfishness, pure and simple, and it won't be stopped until the airlines enforce sensible limits.

Tragedy of the commons, essentially.

PSA: Traveling with a weekender style of bag (or a backpack) makes using one’s own legroom so much easier. And thus removes the need to board early.

My ideal boarding experience is to be the last one entering the plane. Which makes sense as I also try to cut my total time at the airport to a minimum. So far it has worked out.

Same here.

I actually enjoy watching people boarding planes, I find that relaxing. The trick is to only have a backpack and nothing else on you: from the moment you're not relying on getting overhead space, you can completely skip the boarding stress, stay seated while everyone is stressing out and walk into the plane last.

I do recognize that many passengers have financial difficulties and this only works if you can afford a registered luggage.

There is also this frenzy about feeling the need to leave the airport at flash speed. I don't mind waiting a few minutes at the belt, it usually gives me time to reply to a few emails and make 1 or 2 calls. Again, this assumes you're not flying the last plane of the day, which is often cheaper, but delays May expose you to missing a public transport connection.

Amenity discovery is a lot harder than price discovery, so people are going to decide based on the info they can obtain easily.

It would probably be very difficult to reliably compare flights on plane-specific amenities (if the plane ends up being different than the originally scheduled one, and the seats are narrower, do I have financial recourse?).

But even airline-level rules are buried five screens deep in checkout and not necessarily directly comparable. Again, is there recourse if they say "we shrunk the carry-on allowance, or introduced a new super-terrible boarding process after you booked"?

The one amenity advertising that worked for me: Southwest makes a big point of advertising free checked bags, to the point where I'd make it a point to cross-shop them, except they never seem to be going where I want to go.

This comes to mind: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxlZC8BZJ4

This is just US insanity, though. The rest of the world has business -> economy (split into three groups by seat number)

IME (Germany, Dubai, South Africa mainly) it’s First Class, Business, Platinum members (because none of those groups have enough members to board only those), then economy, but split into groups depending on plane size, a typical emirates flight has 4-5 groups by seat number.

CGP Grey produced an excellent video about plane boarding methods, the fastest isn't obvious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo

TLDW? So what method was the fastest?

None of them. The ultimate suggestion of the "steffen modified" is not much better than random. Neither is window-middle-aisle. For CGPGrey it's just nerding out for the sake of it. For the airlines it's publicity.

If you don't care about practicality, take all the even rows of seats, board the left window seats first, then the middle, then the aisles, then the right window, middle, and aisle, then the same thing again with the odd rows of seats. (Steffen Modified) If you're really dead set on perfection, force every one of those groups of people to board back-to-front, effectively creating a separate boarding group for each seat. (Steffen Perfect)

If you live on Planet Earth, don't assign seats and don't have boarding groups. Let people sit whenever and wherever they want. (Random) It turns out most people will naturally do the things that make boarding quick anyway and literally all organized boarding is a conspiracy to make boarding take longer so airlines can sell you faster boarding.

Also selling:

* faster de-planing (this, and an assumption that people paying more USUALLY cause less trouble, thus better to seat near the pilots)

* the illusion of exclusivity (more important people 'go first')

* the actual practice of exclusivity (service is provided highest paying class to least) when things run short / out

* First Class, the one time I ever flew it, got meal choices that seemed actually good. Behind them it's always dry pretzel things for a snack flight or some mish mash of global fusion I'd never roll the dice on; or an overpriced stale sandwich from one of the stores in the area past TSA.

Last trip, I just packed ham sandwiches and cookies in the carry bag. I feel like a high-schooler on a field trip, but I'm not paying $10+ for box of terrible snacks.

Also, never pay the First Class premium on UK railways: it's the same sort of terrible box you wouldn't buy for $10 on a plane, but the fare premium was £20 on the train I took (Swindon-Plymouth)

Can I pay for last-boarding/slow boarding? Not sure why people want to rush onto the plane that will land at the same time as everyone else.

Other than the carryon issue, but, knocks wood, has always worked for me (Note I'm usually long-haul where not as many people try to avoid a checked bag, and sometimes I'm no carry-on, just a checked bag).

I mean you can just get on the plane last with the last boarding group

> Let people sit whenever and wherever they want

That was done at some point by Ryanair or EasyJet in Europe.

Three were riots, blood and tears and they got back to numbered seats

They do this on Southwest in the USA and it seems to work fine.

Ah they do? I was flying Southwest a few years ago (right before COVID) from Phoenix to Oakland (via Portland....) and the seats were assigned. I remember this because the whole family was scattered around the plane despite us coming in rather early and all together.

You must be misremembering. Southwest has an assigned boarding order, and you pick any seat when you board. It is likely that your family was scattered around because of limited available seats when you boarded. Those who fly don't fly Southwest very often aren't familiar with the check-in process and often end up in the later boarding groups. Showing up and checking in for the flight in-person typically results in a late boarding group, because most of the good boarding groups are already taken 24 hours before the flight when online check-in opens up.

https://www.southwest.com/help/day-of-travel/boarding-proces...

Ah ok - I must have misremembered.

This is probably due to the weirdness of that flight. It was our last day in the US and we were to fly from PHX to ODR at, say, 16:00 to fly back to France the next day. We were earlier than planned at PHX and there was an earlier flight to ORD.

I asked if we can take that one - no problem. It is only when the planse started and the crew announced that we are flying to Portland that I thought WTF??

And this is how I discovered that a flight labelled A to B in the US can actually mean A to B via C where C is on the other side of the country. Kinda our city bus or underground... :)

We met very nice people, though, and I had an interesting discussion about the US. My son discussed with a lady in another row and she wanted him to meet his daughters when they will be in Paris :)

Ah yeah, if you were flying Southwest and did a flight change at the airport and you didn't pay for upgraded boarding, you would have been put at the end of the line for boarding.

I too tend to have interesting random conversations on Southwest flights, especially when flying alone. My hypothesis is that since people get to choose where they sit, they often end up picking where to sit by the vibe others are giving off, and it's more conducive to conversation.

The way to do southwest is not only to check in 24 hours before the flight, but also to book a flight with a nearby stopover where you continue on the same plane. When the other passengers get off, whoever is left on the plane can go sit wherever they want. Grab yourself a front row seat right next to the door. You can even get off the plane to look around at the stop over airport, you just have to sign out with a stewardess. Then you get to board first. Like first-first, before the preboarding/military/babies. Then everyone at the boarding gate can imagine what a big VIP you are.

I book direct when I can. My preferred method is to play the 24 hour check-in gamble, and then size up the crowd at the gate.

If it looks like a small crowd, pleasant group of people, and a decent boarding position, I roll with what I got.

If the crowd is huge, cranky, with too much luggage, and I have a bad boarding group, I go to the counter and buy an A-list upgrade.

Southwest Airlines was right the entire time

this is going to be something of a disaster :) People travel together and like to sit next to each other, it's just going to be so confusing for some parties, and so many people are going to try to cheat, mayhem.

planes should switch to pods, then we get loaded in bulk. Everybody gets strapped in before the plane even gets there, then load us all up with a forklift!

That sounds much more expensive operationally, to save minutes of aircraft downtime.

If you are booked with someone else, you both get the earliest of the two boarding groups. Enough people fly alone that this still saves some time I guess

Plus, carry-on luggage:

The problem in practice with boarding people in back first is that:

1. They tend to put their carry-on in the first bin they find in the front of the airplane. So people sitting in the front have to put theirs in the back. This is a disaster later in the boarding process because there isn't enough room for people to circulate back up to the front after they stow their carry-on.

2. Frequent fliers and people who purchased premium economy seats expect to be able to bring a carry-on. They tend to sit in the front the plane, so the problem for #1 affects them more.

This is relevant to United's new policy because boarding people with windows in the back board before people with aisles in the front.

> They tend to put their carry-on in the first bin they find in the front of the airplane

I personally haven't noticed this and I don't think it's very common. I thought that most people preferred to have their carry on in the bin closest to their seat in case they need to pull something out mid flight.

If you watch on domestic flights, it's about a 60-40 split between people who put their carry on near them (60%) and people who throw it in the first free bin (40%)

But how much of that is because boarding is a complete mess, and the last thing you want is to get to the back of the plane where your seat is and that's all full already because for some reason all the people with status are also in the back. Then you have to wade "upstream" to put your bag somewhere.

If the plane was more reliably boarded in some sort of order, I'd be more relaxed about it.

In my experience, it’s super common.

That’s the whole point of boarding earlier, securing carry on space.

I’m little skeptical. Even before most airlines started charging for checked bags, they had first class board first, and then boarding groups by status. When checked bags were free, the overheads didn’t fill up very fast.

Frankly if I’m at the lounge, I’d much rather stay there another 15 minutes than spend it in a metal tube at the gate.

I think people want to board earlier because the airline says that earlier boarding denotes high status, and people love to be on top of a status game. It’s great to have the velvet rope open in front of you and be told you can go first. Unfortunately at the airport going first just means you get to sit in the tube longer.

> Plus, carry-on luggage:

> The problem in practice with boarding people in back first is that:

> 1. They tend to put their carry-on in the first bin they find in the front of the airplane. So people sitting in the front have to put theirs in the back. This is a disaster later in the boarding process because there isn't enough room for people to circulate back up to the front after they stow their carry-on.

What if every section had to put their bags in the compartments directly above them? Rows 50-60 get overhead section 50-60, rows 40-50 only put their stuff in overhead section 40-50 etc?

Or they could just start charging for carryons too. Then there'd probably be way less of it.

There's just not enough room for a dedicated carryon space per seat. And carryons i've seen lately are massive they don't even fit long wise into the compartment.

This is the real problem. It used to be free to check bags, so not everyone needed a carry-on. Now it costs money to check a bag so everyone needs a carry-on plus a personal item (in practice, a giant backpack that they shove their whole purse, laptop, and jacket into before awkwardly stashing it protruding out from under your seat and into the back of your feet).

There used to be extra room in all that overhead storage for a ton of blankets and pillows.

lol the inevitable guy with the huge hockey bag that fills the entire bin is on every single flight

You've asserted this first-encountered-bin idea twice in this thread that I've seen. I always fly economy so I'm generally on after most others have boarded, but I don't think I've ever seen the behavior you describe at least on US domestic flights over ~20 years flying now. From observing while departing the aircraft it seems the vast majority of people place their things above their own seats. Is this something that you see often personally or something you heard / was observed by somebody else somewhere?

Edit: I guess I'll have to keep a sharper eye out from here on to see if it's actually as common as you claim.

It's this new asshole meta to not carry your bag further in the plane.

So many people have status (especially late in the year) so that Boarding Group 2 doesn't guarantee overhead at front of plane.

It's also a matter of getting to your seat at the back, finding no space, and then having to walk up and finding any remaining space has been taken... the non-asshole approach can be risky.

If you're boarding last (as I do voluntarily and involuntarily), you just shove your stuff wherever.

I guess in optimized boarding setups, anyone that voluntarily boards last is an asshole, but they tend to escape judgement.

> It's also a matter of getting to your seat at the back, finding no space, and then having to walk up and finding any remaining space has been taken ... If you're boarding last (as I do voluntarily and involuntarily), you just shove your stuff wherever

I get what you're saying, but I pay extra (a lot extra) to sit in the front and have more leg room, and forget about the fact you hate rich people, there out to be a place for my one carryon near where I'm sitting. Because if I have to walk to the back of the plane to stow, how will get to my bag after we land?

the asshole approach really is the asshole approach.

I know, I know, rich and asshole go together. Me paying for that seat, that comfort, should be balanced by me not being able to get my bag till everybody else has left the plane /s

The parent's point isn't even responsive.

People like the parent who are boarding in later groups aren't causing the issue.

No.

Your situation is irrelevant because you're boarding last. Of course you're looking for any empty space.

It's common once the bins start filling up. You don't want to get to your seat to find no overhead space, having to go further down the aisle and then awkwardly shuffle back. Then when you land you now have to wait until everyone gets off to go to the back to get your stuff.

I have about 800k lifetime miles and see this on every flight. A lot of people do put their bags right next to them. A lot of people also drop it off on the first space that is available to them.

When I had status I used to sit in first class a lot. Some people try to dump their bags there, but get yelled at 100% of the time. People really love opening the bins for the people in the first row (no under-seat storage because there's a bulkhead; bins closed to make them less attractive to the dive bombers), but also usually get yelled at for that.

I have even seen this happen way in the back. I was sitting in row 21 or something and someone sitting in the last row put their bag right next to mine. Chuck it in there, walk to the back. Hope they put a passcode on their iPad!

I used to fly JFK-SFO and JFK-LAX a lot. Not sure I saw it as much on those routes.

It can't be that hard to do this, if they want to. Boarding passes have group numbers now... For tickets under a single booking, pick the lowest group.

Assign low numbers to special people, then group 4 is windows in economy, group 5 is middles, group 6 is aisles.

People can try to cheat, but when the gate agent scans the ticket and it says not yet, you don't get to go.

Unless there is a penalty, some people will always try it - even if you get stopped, the worst case is your default boarding position. The only way to stop it is have a separate line ("sin bin"? :)) that the gate agent puts people in when they try to board early, so that they end up boarding last. Or force them check their bags. Humans respond to incentives...

Sure, it's annoying, but it doesn't really delay anyone, since throughput at the gate agent is much higher than throughput at boarding door.

Do people even follow the boarding order? Sometimes I can't hear what they say and I just get in line anyway, and I've never had an issue. Obviously people mostly follow it, and it wouldn't work if nobody listened to it, but I'm not sure that the gate attendants care if a few people queue at the wrong time.

Also, queuing order is only about who goes first. If you're in an early section, but show up late, you can still get in line. So in this proposed system you can still have window seaters showing up late and defeating the whole point of having them board first.

Several airports I use in Europe enforce it, as the automatic gates where you scan your boarding pass won't open unless the group has been called to board.

I recently saw people get rejected at the gate when they tried to board ahead of time in Frankfurt, so it sounds like they are starting to enforce it.

I’d not seen it widely enforced before this year, but on several recent flights with several airlines (including United) the gate agent has had to turn people back to wait their turn. I’m all for it.

I'm on an ANA flight where they do this. At boarding time they let people go with their parties. Still felt more efficient than usual.

Couples and families get enough advantages in life. As someone who is usually a single traveler with just a carry-on who prefers the window seat, this sounds awesome. Kinda joking, kinda not. ;)

I do imagine this will cause some chaos in reality. What might be better is if flight attendants carries cattle prods to punish the all the boobs who don't find their seat and stow their carryon in a timely manner. Way too many flyers behave like no one else's time is important.

On the other hand, maybe carry-on items shouldn't be allowed except for personal items. That way, boarding takes far less time because no one has to stow away anything.

> On the other hand, maybe carry-on items shouldn't be allowed except for personal items. That way, boarding takes far less time because no one has to stow away anything.

That may not make an improvement because loading and unloading checked luggage can take a while, both in logistics to/from the aircraft but also in the actual fairly manual loading/unloading process.

I've had people sitting in the window seat while it was mine several times before, but upon telling them, they always moved away. I don't see how this would get worse with a rule like that in place.

Sitting in the middle can be pretty bad if you're a tall person. I once had a ~10 hour flight in the middle with a morbidly obese guy sitting on one side, and a ~200cm tall guy sit on the other. It was torture. I'm 188cm myself, so I'll be pretty crammed either way. I somewhat envy my girlfriend in that way, as she's asian-sized and can comfortably sit anywhere.

On my last flight with United, I got assigned a window seat in one of the exit rows. I thought 'great' as they offer extra leg room, but again, there was a morbidly obese person next to me, and he took up about 20% of my seat (or even more.) It was hard to breathe so I mostly sat on the bump of the emergency exit door. A flight attendant flew by and asked me if I was alright. I gesticulated to the guy (who was sleeping on an opioid pain killer mixed with Heineken) saying I can't breathe properly while being squished between a 300kg guy and the airplane window. She just shrugged and said there's nothing she could do as the plane was full.

I understand it is probably uncomfortable to fly for "extra size" people, but I also feel like I should at least get the very limited space I booked when I have to fly.

... Not too related but yeah.

Your experience is why southwest is my preferred airline. Board in B group and choose who you sit next to. Or board in A and choose any seat, never a middle.

> as she's asian-sized and can comfortably sit anywhere

what exactly is this supposed to mean?

Asian people are smaller. Are you triggered by statistics? LOL

https://vietnamnet.vn/en/average-height-of-vietnamese-among-...

Yes, it was funny the first time I noticed the sizing in a sweatshirt of mine. I was a Medium in all countries listed but the single Asian country were it was considered an XL.

// what exactly is this supposed to mean?

Do you really not understand what he means?

According to the first few Google results, Asian women in Asia tend to be ~5ft on average, Asian women in America are 5'1 while white and black women in America are about 5'4".

I don’t think united lets you pick your seat like Southwest does. You’re assigned a seat.

United lets you pick your seat (although it can get changed if there's some other change, e.g. a different plane).

Poor wording is interfering with the conveyance of the message. Southwest lets you board the plane without an assigned seat, you then scan the plane and plop yourself down in your favorite. United lets you select a seat (on some fares) when you book the ticket or check in. You absolutely cannot board the plane and sit wherever you like. (You guys are interpreting the word "pick" as meaning both things.)

SeatGuru[1] is a godsend, especially if you are plus size or have special needs and need to choose comfortable or practical seats in advance. (Make sure to select the Seat Maps tab.)

EDIT: Added AeroLOPA[2] for good measure.

[1]: https://www.seatguru.com/ [2]: https://www.aerolopa.com/

> planes should switch to pods, then we get loaded in bulk. Everybody gets strapped in before the plane even gets there, then load us all up with a forklift!

My palletized human logistics startup is applying for YC S24, and we’re currently accepting applications for test passengers.

If the airlines stopped charging to check luggage, 99% of the problems with boarding would go away.

Yes. Charge $50 per carry-on and make checked baggage free, and boom, you'll double the onboarding speed. Too many people dragging armfuls of carry-on baggage onto the plane, struggling to heft them into the overhead bins, and fighting for space.

That would help, but a lot of people have such a distaste for checking luggage, even when free (And TBF to them, it can easily add an hour to your trip), that I don't know it would completely solve the problem.

> TBF to them, it can easily add an hour to your trip

I used to care when I was in my early-mid 20s because I'd often take evening flights in the day before I had to work (PTO was at a premium). Having to wait an additional 30 minutes to an hour for bags sucked when it was a two hour drive home and it was already 10:30. Now that I live next to the airport and have more leeway as regards my leave I don't sweat it so much.

I fly Southwest specifically because they don't charge to check bags (seriously, fuck this nonsense of charging for basic functionality). I find that it's actually very rare that the overhead bin space fills up, even on completely full flights. I think that the GP is spot on that contention for the bins wouldn't be nearly as bad if checking bags was free (which again, it bloody well should be even if it didn't help the bin situation).

Or charge for both.

https://help.ryanair.com/hc/en-gb/categories/12489112419089-...

Southwest gives everyone two checked bags for free, and still, most bring carry-ons. People are too afraid of losing their luggage.

I flew ZipAir earlier this year and I liked how they handled boarding.

Their "full flat" (the Business section) boards at any time because the seats are to the left as you enter the plane, but the rest of the cabin begins boarding from the rear rows first in groups of something like ten or twenty rows at a time.

That’s normal for most airlines that have a business / first class 3 E.g. full service airlines . The USA legacy ones are forgoing it to save jetbridge cost.

I pick aisle seats, check my bags, and wait until the last possible second to get on the plane.

So nothing will change for me. But I still think this is a dumb idea.

Same. I always wondered why people fight to sit first, sitting on a plane is torture. I'd get on right as the plane door is closing if I had my way.

Apparently it's because people fight over the bins? I've never used one, seems like a hassle. Every flight I've ever taken has offered to gate check my stuff, for free.

The bins are really good if a) you're traveling for a short time such that you only need a carry on size bag, and b) you can sit towards the front so that you can immediately get off the plane with your bag. Otherwise, meh. You do get guaranteed your bag won't get lost, but that's a pretty rare occurrence in my experience.

I've had checked items stolen, bags lost and destroyed and only fly about once a year. Carry-ons only for me.

That's.. really unlucky. I fly once or twice a year, and the last time I had a bag lost was probably 10 years ago. I've never had stuff stolen or destroyed. I'm obviously not saying that it never happens, but to have the problems you've had is definitely far from the norm.

Yeah this what i do if i don't need to use the overhead bins. Either checking luggage or only bringing a backpack

Priority Boarding

This always fails because half the plane consists of business travelers with priority boarding due to status.

This is something that Southwest got right by not having assigned seats. And as a result, they turn planes faster than any other airline.

https://www.cnbc.com/id/43768488

But it's also why people pay a premium to not fly Southwest

Do they? Southwest is often far from the cheapest option.

No they don't. Southwest is not the cheap airline option, that would be Frontier/Spirit/JetBlue. Southwest is often cheaper than United/Delta/American by a bit, but it's not that much.

I share a similar experience. I’m puzzled by the common perception that Southwest offers low prices. In my case, their fares are often quite comparable to American Airlines and United. Sometimes, the flights I prefer are even more costly with Southwest. I don’t have a strong preference for any specific airline; my choice is mainly based on the quickest route with the fewest layovers and reasonable hours.

And personally I very much dislike the Southwest approach to boarding. I feel much calmer knowing that my ideal seat has been reserved.

Southwest is not a budget carrier -- they were never that cheap.

But I would pay a premium not to fly Southwest. If there was Delta flight that was a $100 more than an equivalent Southwest flight, I would take the Delta flight.

That's what OP meant by paying a premium.

But that's the point - Delta (and others) aren't that much more. So people aren't paying a premium to avoid Southwest, because there isn't a premium to be paid.

It’s a hypothetical premium. Fares for the same route can differ between carriers depending on airport, time of travel etc. even among mainstream carriers. I would pay more not to fly Southwest.

I absolutely hate flying southwest and would pay double to not have to deal with that chaos.

This is how I feel about WOW Airlines. No amount of savings is worth that experience. I did WOW long-haul SF to Frankfurt. Never again! One side of my seat didn't even have an arm rest.

Well you can rest easy, they went out of business four years ago.

That's too funny, I was just in Bangkok on a work trip and I saw a WOW airlines place at Bangkok airport while my plane was taxi-ing. Must not have been repainted yet. When I saw the plane out the window I was like, "well, we meet again, my old foe."

I loved them. Sooooo cheap they went bankrupt running full flights.

It works for the market Southwest serves, but that’s not the same market United is going after.

United's market is masochists

10 minutes turn around sounds unbelievable. I fly Southwest all the time and just disembarking takes 10 minutes. Were these small planes with no carry-ons allowed?

Southwest has a 737-only fleet. They allow carry-ons.

Agreed, I think this is corporate lore and mostly bullshit. I've flown Southwest many times and they're not turning those planes around in anything approaching 10 minutes, it's more like 30-45 mins. I don't doubt that they aimed for that and maybe even hit it here or there, but I'm highly skeptical that it was the norm.

I really dislike Southwest's boarding system.

I set a check in timer and I still get group C -- after being bit twice, I decided to never fly Southwest again.

SWA veterans tell me I need to be A-list but it's a chicken and egg scenario. I dislike them so much that I will never fly them frequently enough to get A-list, and without A-list I will continue to dislke them. So I just never fly Southwest.

That's true, but really group C is almost always fine anyways. I've only rarely been unable to snag a window seat (my preference) even in C group. But you are definitely right that you have to check in the millisecond it becomes available to get into B. A is just impossible to get unless you pay $15 for early bird check in (which I only do if it's an early flight or I know I'll be busy during check in time, since early bird is also automatic).

Why do airlines charge for checked luggage, but offer overhead bin space for free? The latter is clearly more convenient, but causes the majority of slowdowns with the boarding process. It seems the incentives are reversed.

Because they can charge shippers for transporting more cargo if the bottom of the plane isn’t full of checked bags. https://thepointsking.com/blog/passenger-planes-ship-freight...

There is an even better method to board a plane

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo

Well, not in practice. The problem is that that's based on a computer simulation which assumes that people store their carry-on in a bin near their seat (instead of the actual behavior in practice, which is to store it in the first empty bin they encounter while boarding the plane).

I've done 100's of flights and have never encountered this.

I have done 50s of flights and encountered it about quite often (at least 50% of the flights I have been on, likely close to 100%). Esp in the second half of boarding, people just want to be safe not sorry.

Interesting. I wouldn't want my bag out of reach and out of sight (it has my laptop in it) and as a rule people seem to use the bin closest to them. On the plus side, since COVID I haven't had to fly at all and that saves a ton of time and irritation. (Most of my flights in recent years have been within the EU, before that a very large number between the US and Europe and Canada and Europe, rarely within the US domestically).

I saw it on a couple flights, not most. It's a train wreck. The first people take the first bins, but sit in the back. Then people getting on who sit in the front have to walk back, find a bin, then walk back forward against the traffic. It's about as much of a clusterf as you'd imagine.

I don't know why FA's don't watch and ban the practice...

I always see people store their carry on near their seat. The only time people store their bag in the first spot they come to is if they are boarding towards the end, and have to take whatever odd spots are left.

> store it in the first empty bin they encounter while boarding the plane

Interesting! I've never done this. However, knowing the problems created when I end up near my seat and have to store it in a bin behind my row, I probably should.

It also assumes people are honest about when they're supposed to board. I'm usually in B group in United and it's amazing how every time the folks in front of me are in D or E. Ticket checker never, ever cares.

That was awesome, thank you.

Something I found discovered recently which I found quite amazing in light of how long it typically takes to board a plane:

The target time for an emergency evacuation is 90 seconds.

And the manufacturers must demonstrate that this is possible in order for the aircraft to get certification.

Well to be fair a lot of the boarding time is tied up in people struggling to get luggage into overhead bins, and then eventually fully running out of space and having to swim upstream after they put their bag behind them.

Yes, apparently this is why "DO NOT TAKE YOUR LUGGAGE WITH YOU" is emphasised so much in safety announcements. 90 seconds still seems impressively fast to me though.

Also one (or very rarely 2 with some 757s) entrance vs. 5+ exits.

It's the difference between everyone wanting to get out ASAP, probably because they fear for their lives, and "the plane's not going anywhere even if I take a few more seconds".

The passengers aren't all filing out the one door at the front in that situation. I'd say an average jet has at least 6 emergency exists (2 in the front, 2 in the exit row, and 2 in the rear) so nobody is more than a couple of rows from an exit in that situation, plus they are moving their ass and they are not dealing with luggage.

Which begs the question: why can't we just[0] replace the emergency exits with regular doors, have more jetbridges, and load planes faster?

[0] My use of the word "just" should betray the fact that this is far more complicated than I think it is. Obviously, this would be too expensive, impractical, and double the weight of the aircraft all to solve a very minor traveler issue.

Rear exits are already the same size as the front exits, but getting a jet bridge safely past the wing isn't easy so you'd have to mirror what European carriers do and use dual stairs.

If you're thinking of using two front exits, jet bridges also can't get too close to the engine so the only narrowbody that works for is the aging 757. Plus it doesn't really save time because the space between 1L and 2L is generally first class.

Ah! Now I remember one more advantage of smaller kids. “Can I go now, I have kids.” I winked at my younger one to start the crying routine. There we go, we can board whenever we want. This has worked pretty must almost all the time. ;-)

I think the most sensible way to do it would be to let people self-select into fast boarders and slow borders, let the fast ones get on first and take their seats, then give the slow boarders as much time as they need.

That might naturally tend towards window seaters being the "fast boarders", as those taking a place at the aisle probably don't want window-seaters having to squeeze past them, and vice-versa.

True, the choice of slow or fast could dictate aisle/middle/window position, or the boarding groups could be set up as follows:

group 1) fast window seaters

group 2) fast middle seaters in rows with the window in group 1

group 3) fast aisle seaters with the other seats already boarded in groups 1 or 2

group 4) slow window seaters

group 5) everyone else

> United said that it's shown to save up to two minutes of boarding time.

Incredible.

I can't tell if that's sincere or sarcastic.

5,000 flights a day, 3 flight attendants = ~ 500 hours/day in flight attendant pay saved (context: flight attendants are recently getting or fighting for boarding pay)

But if all the minutes don't add up to an empty slot in the airport between its operating times, then it's for naught.

Let's say a gate handles 2 flights an hour and operates for 18 hours a day (last flight 11pm, first flight 5am).

That's a gate capacity of 36 flights per day. Saving 2 mins per flight frees up an hour of gate time daily.

That's enough to squeeze in two more flights into that gate. If United is operating 10 gates at an airport, that's room for 20 more flights a day. Now I don't know whether gate capacity is the main bottleneck but I do know "waiting for a gate" is a common problem after landing, so it must be an issue to some degree.

In theory yes but in reality one passenger fumbling around looking for a spot for their carryon bags can easily add 2 minutes to the boarding process. And the very early and very late flights are probably not full so there won't be much savings there.

Each economy passenger should get one carryon that must be able to fit under the seat. If you want legroom, you can put it in the overhead bin. Nobody needs more than that for personal items that may be needed during the flight. Extra carryons could possibly be allowed for a fee, if it's high enough that we don't end up back with the problem we currently have.

I think the original intent for carry-on + personal item is that a carry-on is a backpack and the personal item is your purse (so only 50% of the population has one). They stopped measuring carry-ons and now people take an ordinary suitcase as their carry-on and their maximum-allowed-carry-on-sized-bag as their personal item. Neither fit under the seat.

(I personally have been using a maximum-allowed-size backpack forever, and because it's soft, it can easily be crushed under the seat in front of me. It's not pleasant! But I've done it. Everyone should be like me.)

> They stopped measuring carry-ons

Why? I don't fly very much, and I remember those frames that your carry-on bag had to fit in or you'd have to check it.

Why did this stop?

Waste of time and being combative with passengers with wildly inconsistent enforcement of bags that touch the edges, or were compliant sizes until the airline changed its rules, or are currently compliant with other airlines' allowed sizes, and fit in the overhead anyway in the correct orientation because mainline airplanes have basically two actual bin sizes (and bins in regional planes generally can't fit the allowed carryon dimensions anyway.)

Really, the only stupidly large carryons I see people trying their luck is the occasional 60l+ hiking backpack, which are obvious enough that gate agents could force them to measure.

// in reality one passenger fumbling around looking for a spot for their carryon bags can easily add 2 minutes

Yes but in the new model this delay is on top of an improved baseline so you are still 2 minutes ahead on average.

A good indicator that this matters is that United, who presumably knows their business better than you and I, is excited enough about it to implement the change.

// Nobody needs more than that for personal items that may be needed during the flight.

The goal of carry on isn’t for me to access personal items. It’s to enable me to get out of the airport and be in the taxi, half way to my meeting, while you wait for the carousel.

> good indicator that this matters is that United

My experience suggests coprorate decision making is never as data driven as it seems. I'm willing to bet there's some VP at United who is banking on the hype for this to carry them into the next echelon.

_up to_ 2 minutes.

No mention of the actual distribution, so I'm willing to bet it will most often be 0 improvement, or an actual net negative, when you get a confused family or otherwise indignant group wondering why they can't board together.

Puts things in to perspective for me. 3/6 of my most recent united flights were each delayed by over 4 hours. That doesn't include the time we were kept in the plane for 3 hours on the ground at JFK, nor the time they moved our departure to Oakland from SFO while we were in SFO.

2 minutes will really make a large impact.

I always assumed the bottleneck was readying the plane so it doesn’t really matter how quickly you board. And people would prefer to not sit on the plane waiting around. I have no idea if this is true.

They can replace the in-flight magazine with a dustpan and some wet wipes and skip cleaning entirely. Do it once a year at the C check or whatever. Uptime!

There are some things that you can only do once everyone has boarded and skipping steps in the checklist is a recipe for disaster.

European budget airline staff get rather annoyed if people are messing about and slowing down boarding.

There's only minimal cleaning during the day. Mostly just collecting litter and putting magazines etc back in their place. Ryanair planes don't even have a seat pocket; the safety card is a large sticker on the back of the seat in front. After an inbound flight, boarding can start just a few minutes later.

Okie good job. Now next step, board the plane back to front!

this will give priority to economy class

and we can't have that! how will the plebs get to see the rich folk sipping champagne in first class?

First class doesn't care about the plebs

I feel like first class passengers would strongly prefer to be last in and first out. Less hassle is the premium experience. Who wouldn't rather relax in a comfortable lounge and board when the plane is ready for them and then be first to get off the flight and get on with things?

Economy should be first in and last out. More hassle and waiting.

First class seats are comfy and often you'll get a drink while sitting there watching everyone else board. First off in the end as well. If you prefer to board last, no worries you can do that and there will still be plenty of room for your carry-on. First class means flexibility.

I think we some creative marketing this could be changed. People is 1st class hate having to watch everyone go by them. Anyway, who cares. If the end result is faster boarding and more reliable service it should be done.

Was a bit confused about "WILMA" because it seems like the L and M are backwards, but that's correct, [0] I guess someone decided this sounds nicer than WIMLA, which would make more sense.

[0] https://aircraftmaintenancestands.com/blog/boarding-an-airpl...

It's (Wi)ndow, (M)iddle, (A)isle, right?

L is just filler that doesn't stand for anything, so it doesn't matter where it is in the order.

There's an "L" in `Middle`, I figured it's supposed to be from that

The problem is that they are still boarding basic economy last, and those people are likely to be in middle seats. So people who boarded aisle seats ahead of them will have to get up and block the aisle to let them in. If they found a way to board the middle seats from back to front, that would make things better, but there's no way to order folks like that within a single group.

The only thing people care about is room for their carry on. Otherwise put me on last, first or in the middle I don’t care

I do not understand why airlines don't seem to get this. Make sure I have a reserved overhead spot (not the same thing as checked luggage) and I'll board in any order you want me to, including being dead last.

I recently flew Alaska, and if I had had a carry on bag that needed to go in overhead, I would have been _pissed_. They told us that the last two groups needed to gate check their bags. I assumed this was because they ran out of space. NOPE. When I got on there was still a _ton_ of space in the overhead. Almost definitely enough for all the remaining passengers who they had had gate check.

Like I said, this didn't affect me, but I had second hand anger. And I can't even think what the point was of it. I have to imagine that they have just gotten used to there not being enough space and they didn't bother checking if it was the case on this flight.

Heh, no that’s not it at all. It isn’t because “they don’t know how much free space” it’s a weight and balance issue. They monitor the weight, fuel and depending on the flight load they rather gate check luggage to reduce it because usually later groups for Alaska board the back. The gate agent may say it’s space or whatnot, but that is a fib because imagine them trying to explain “weight and balance” to people all eager to get on a plane that can’t even leave until the door closes.

Comical.

How does moving bags from overhead lockers to the hold reduce the weight?

Or are you claiming that doing so moves the center of mass in a way that makes some practical difference?

Balance issues involving passenger locations are solved by moving passengers (after the door closes and the manifest finalizes), not bags. Weight issues are solved by un-checking bags or bumping passengers. Checking bags for balance reasons is only done if there aren't enough checked bags to balance the contracted cargo, and is rare enough that it's generally called out as such.

Just like how they "monitor" weight by assuming average weights for simple categories and just counting passengers, many airlines let the computer decide when to cut it off based solely on the number of people boarded, times what they surveyed the average number of carryons per person to be, with zero feedback of whether the bins are actually filling up. Some airlines (American) go further and cut it off earlier than usual if the computer thinks D0 might be threatened.

Because people make a mess putting their luggage on overhead. That being said, I am fine with gate-checking. It's a decent alternative to overhead. My biggest worry with checked luggage is losing the bag. Second worry is that's it's going to break somehow. That's not the case for gate checked.

I'd appreciate it more if they could get people to stop clustering around the entrance to the line to the skybridge. I always end up thinking I'm standing in line when I'm actually behind someone in boarding group Z who's hovering there so they can be first in their group.

Looked through the comments from anyone with experience as a cabin crew, but didn't find one.

Back to front is the only reasonable way to board faster. The rest is all bs.

But they price discriminate so that people pay more to be in the front. If the people in the front get there and have no overhead storage space, there will be a lot of hard feelings.

They don't let people put bags in the first class area unless they're in first class. I think it's more about making people feel special. But honestly, isn't it special to be the people who spend the least amount of time crammed into a tin can?

What they seem to be doing is monetizing all the seats from front to back. So sitting forward in "coach" with an assigned seat and more legroom is incrementally more expensive than further back.

So full flights will fill the overhead bins long before everyone has boarded.

True. But you can still board the special people last if you don't let plebes (I count myself among them) to put bags in their zone. Economy Plus folks can't bring bags at all (just one personal item), IIRC.

I flew economy plus and I thought that too, but I could bring a bag. Either it was allowed or they weren't checking.

Window seats first is strictly better.

I have never forgotten the time United Airlines allowed a man to be beaten, because he wouldn't give up his seat that he paid for. It doesn't matter what they do, I will never fly United.

Pretty good vid showing how different boarding options work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo

Mythbusters tested this https://youtu.be/ss1S3-Kv6R8?si=X33pP_wS0fC2arx-

As long as I get on the flight, doesn't matter if I'm waiting at the gate or waiting in the plane. I dont care if my carry-on gets checked under the plane, I'll keep my expensive stuff under the seat in front of me in a personal.

It really boggles my mind that people get upset about airline travel. You're paying a pittance to travel thousands of miles in a day, and you get free snacks and tv. Oh you're uncomfortable? Less comfortable than taking a car, bus or train that will take ten times as long and is much more likely to crash, and probably costs more? Cool cool cool.

Modern life is so hard.

Never understood the mad rush to be the first person crammed into a stuffy metal tube where you’ll be stuck for the next several hours.

Pillows blankets and overhead space run out for the losers at the end.

I didn't even know there were pillows and blankets. I rarely use the overhead space. I've never seen it run out, and I rarely fly on flights that aren't maxed.

I actually count on them to run out of overhead space. It's a free checked bag! Albeit a small one... I'd just rather not have to deal with trying to cram my carry on into an overhead, and then the psychotic rush to grab it and run down the aisle as people behind you try to trample you when leaving. Nobody has any chill anymore.

One difference is who gets forced to check bags so that the dozen companies that process the luggage steal, damage or lose your bags.

That's because carry-on luggage policy is rarely enforced. So people have to make do with rushing. Some people take multiple items with them on carry-on and do not use the seat in front.

Oblig Lewis CK on flying :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3dYS7PcAG4

Why is it hard to understand that people want to travel in relative comfort?

I think the point is we chose a life of separation/distance, and now we whine about the relative discomfort of magically flying in the air thousands of miles in a few hours to cover that distance. Instead, we could either choose not to live so far apart or choose to accept the consequences of our actions.

I remember a Southwest flight to San Jose a few years ago that deboarded in both the front and back of the plane at the same time. It was great.

It never happened again.

Boarding, happens all the time in Long Beach, CA. Haven’t seen it deboard that way though.

See also https://youtu.be/oAHbLRjF0vo by CGP Grey

ANA does this (source: on an ANA flight right now). Thought that was a very smart idea.

And then I realized I no longer being on the window for long haul flights.

Isle seaters == baggage check

I give it til after the holiday season.

Why not load the plane by row, back to front?

Finally... only took like 60 years to figure that one out.

Need to couple it with a collective financial incentive for fast turns.

i could have sworn someone did a study that showed random boarding was the best algorithm despite intuition.

It’s always easy boarding in first class.

..but not really.

Obligatory reference to CGP Grey's excellent treatment of the topic (video): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oAHbLRjF0vo

And he shows that window middle aisle saves a little bit of time, but not much.

Clearly no one on HN has watched the Mythbusters episode where they tested exactly this: plane boarding. And this was indeed the most efficient method.

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