Anti-ageing molecule boosts fertility in ageing mice | Hacker News Reader

Anti-ageing molecule boosts fertility in ageing mice

nature.com

120 pointsmgl57 comments

The molecule is Spermidine[0] apparently.

Article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-023-00498-8

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermidine

Before you order your Spermidine supplements: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10143675/

The 15mg/d they used in that study is just the standard dietary intake (top end, europeans). Looked a number of other studies that also used just regular intake levels as "supplementation". Weird how they all stay small when the no observable adverse effects level is much higher.

>(3) Results: Compared with a placebo, spermidine supplementation significantly increased spermine levels in the plasma, but it did not affect spermidine or putrescine levels. No effect on salivary polyamine concentrations was observed.

Which might be fine if the metabolite is actually the responsible molecule.

Helpful reminder that mice lie, monkeys exaggerate, and ferrets are not people (surprisingly enough).

Order? Considering the source of Spermidine, might be easier to get it for free from your local glory hole

Given the concentration, you'd have to drink half a litre of human seminal plasma to match one 15mg supplement pill.

I have no idea what the concentration of seminal plasma is in semen, but even if the latter was pure plasma that's still 135 sessions to equal one pill.

It's possible that others routes of administration have better absorption than oral.

Wheat germ is another source of spermadine and you can buy it at most supermarkets. Sprinkle over cereal

It contains Phytic Acid. Might be the reason humans started removing it from wheat. It gets broken down in sour dough too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytic_acid?wprov=sfla1

[edit] remove doubled word

What’s wrong with phytic acid? I read the link you included. The only negative seems to be it might not be digestible, unless I missed something else?

It irreversible binds minerals and they get excreted i.e. you can't make use of them.

It inhibits the absorption of iron, zinc, and calcium

Does the spermadine also get broken down in sour dough, or is whole wheat sour dough a potential good source?

Spermidine boosts fertility?

A little on the nose.

No you're supposed to swallow. The pill

I’m being serious here but can you consume your own… and see benefits? Does it make it through the digestive system?

The cult of techbro science demands that you do so immediately without reading any prior research into the topic.

Regretting reading these comments suddenly

Well I tried to keep it as implication as possible. There’s no way to make the question not sound crude unfortunately.

Even if it did, you'll get at least as much from eating about 60g of wheat germ as an unprotected sex worker would get if they had new clients every 3.5 minutes for 8 hours.

The study talks about how, "declining egg quality in older mice can be reversed with a dietary supplement". Sooo... unless you have a very specific genetic condition you are not going to be able to self dose and replicate the study.

The molecule is Spermidine. If you are interested in at-home trial to increase intake of spermidine, you can buy some wheat germ and either toast it and let it soak in water overnight.

Its also good for autophagy and there has been no known side effects. Its just a plant product anyway!

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29315079/

> It's just a plant product anyway!

So is heroin/opium...

and Death Cap is just a mushroom!

Arguably not a plant :-)

From the article:

> Getting the dose right is important, as the study also showed that excessive amounts of spermidine led to poorer quality oocytes in mice.

I first learned about Spermidine on David Sinclair's Lifespan podcast last year [1]; it's one of the supplements he takes daily [2].

[1]: https://www.lifespanpodcast.com/nmn-nr-resveratrol-metformin...

[2]: https://fastlifehacks.com/david-sinclair-supplements/

IMHO, Sinclair is making a mistake by taking spermidine directly since it will probably deplete riboflavin (B2) because the excess spermidine will be metabolized my Spermine oxidase which uses B2 as a cofactor

https://www.uniprot.org/uniprotkb/Q9NWM0/entry

IMO, a better way is to trigger your own body to make spermidine by getting enough Arginine and taking Manganese, B6, and keeping your methylation cycle flowing.

The pathway is as follows:

Arginine -> (Arginase, uses manganese as a cofactor) -> Ornithine -> (Ornithine decarboxylase, uses B6 as a cofactor) -> putrescine -> (Spermidine synthase which needs SAMe and Pyruvate) -> Spermidine

https://www.mdpi.com/metabolites/metabolites-12-00344/articl...

Shouldn't the patient take more B2 in that case?

In my opinion, yes. But I still feel the better route to increasing spermidine is finding out if you are deficiency in arginine, manganese, B6 or one of the several cofactors for the methylation cycle.

Though, will having more Arginine, Manganese and B6 automatically trigger your own body to make spermidine? Isn't there maybe a limit when the body stops producing spermidine?

How about chlorella powder? That is what Bryan Johnson uses.

Usually mouse studies get a flood of comments about how they're mouse studies. I think it's interesting that there isn't really a flood this time when it's about aging/longevity, as a lot of people here seem to be immortalists. Hope and faith take you places, I guess.

The title says "in ageing mice". Why repeat it?

Why does your reply point out what I pointed out?

Rick and Morty. Remember that videogame, Roy?

Roy: A Life Well Lived is a Virtual Reality Life Simulator

In the game, scientists are working to extend life. This translates to hacking the videogame's code.

Success. The player of the game is locked in permanent catatonic fugue. Stays in game forever. Immortality achieved.

The lifetime of a universe isn't that long for an immortal though

Another visitor! Stay a while; stay forever!

Haven't heard of this before but it seems to be readily available online in supplement form.

you dont need to go for the supplements. just buy wheat germ from local grocery and have it in appropriate quantities

Aged cheddar cheese also looks to be a good source, more fun to consume than wheat germ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spermidine#Sources

For whatever that might be worth...[1]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10143675/

So it anti-ages my..nads only?

But more fertility is not what we need!

It mentions egg quality. If that impacts development of the fetus as well, it could mean those who wait to have a single child at an older age are less likely to see negative health impacts due to mother's age.

Is it not? A ton of money is spent on fertility treatments by a lot of people

Sorry. I meant "Earth doesn't need more human fertility".

Why do you think that? There is pending problematic population decline in many areas of the world.

It's only problematic for old people, governments and investors. In fact, let's cut governments and investors form the list, as they are already included in the first category.

Dr Brad Stanfield suggests this doesn't work in humans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVvqGAjg_J8

Stanfield's logic is simply wrong.

1. Spermidine found to increase lifespan and fertility in mice.

2. Spermidine levels not found to increase in blood or certain tissues when fed to mice.

3. Therefore, 1 is wrong.

Finding 2 in no way disproves 1. Facts which could be consistent with both 1 and 2 being true:

- spermidine metabolites are responsible for benefits

- while spermidine levels are maintained, excess spermidine is used beneficially

- experimenters in 2 simply haven't looked in the right tissues

And so on. TFA says there were observed phenotypic improvements (follicular health, oocyte number and quality), which categorically trump 2's failure to observe increase in spermidine levels. And none of this says anything directly about spermidine's effects in humans

I’ve watched a lot of Stanfield’s videos. Over time I came to realize that his whole image is built on being “the critic” and tempering optimism around these treatments. Except for his own personal research, which he’d like you to help fund :)

At the end of the day, “the critic” is a valuable job. Someone has to do it. Not sure it is really helping progress the industry though. I think it would be better for him to leave this to the lawyers tho.

this is a dystopian apocalyptic Sci-Fi level side effect! Great story potentials.

cells that refuse to die are known as cancer. I hope (some) people won't become cancer of this planet

This is not entirely true. Some brain cells and the cells in your eye lens will be there your entire life and could even potentially live longer if they were not limited by the rest of the body. Cancer is definitely a lot more than just immortal cells.

Agree with sibling comment.

This is another indicator that that is not quite the right way to think about cancer.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37839458

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