Now like, it's fiction not prophesy and you can get into various whatifs sure. But you can't dodge the fact that a refutation of this sort of project is itself contained in the work originating it! You have to engage with that!
Now like, it's fiction not prophesy and you can get into various whatifs sure. But you can't dodge the fact that a refutation of this sort of project is itself contained in the work originating it! You have to engage with that!
Elizabeth is interacting with ractors assigned (expensively) to the work, potentially at random although realistically that's likely to be why she ended up being recruited. Elizabeth's "failure" to use your word is that she ends up recruited into Cryptnet, about which we know nothing - we see one other individual in the story who is, supposedly a high level member of Cryptnet but denies all knowledge of it and his motives are unknown but seem perhaps good.
Fiona is interacting with her father, John Hackworth. The Primer's designer. That's what he's been doing for at least some of the time he was missing, he's her ractor, he's why Fiona's use of the Primer isn't costing much money. Fiona's "failure" is that she hooks up with Dramatis Personae, the outfit we see briefly whose true purpose is entirely unknown. Just as you might be disappointed mistakenly if you wanted your daughter to be a surgeon and she instead becomes a Nobel prize winning novelist, so Fiona's "failure" seems like a misunderstanding on your part.
Yes, Nell founds a new tribe (her Mouse Army), and is recognised by the Victorian Queen - which is perhaps a more immediately notable achievement, something likely to be written in history books, but lots of people do important things without appearing in history books. Her ractor, Miranda is her substitute mother (we're never told AFAIK what happens to Nell's actual mother, she's just written out) but while Miranda is important to Nell, there's no reason to think John is less important to Fiona.
But still my overall point remains! If someone is going to make a primer based on the ideas of the diamond age, they should be the ones to start this conversation. They should have a more sophisticated view of this limitation than an internet commenter who last read the book years ago. Not doing that is its own kind of failure.
The readers are not Neal. They may, as is their choice be far more concerned with the Primer's potential than with any narrative Neal was looking to convey.
I'm pointing out that this conversation needs to be started by the ones creating the "primer", not us. "We made a thing from a book, the author thinks it wouldn't work but here's why we do" is a reasonable place to start. "We're reproducing a canonically failed fictional project without further consideration" is unserious at best. Torment nexus-y at worst. https://twitter.com/AlexBlechman/status/1457842724128833538
You don't need to dispute anything anymore than the wright brothers needed to dispute Icarus.
Neal was trying to tell a story, not trying to be right.
I remember someone noting a similar idea in Snow Crash -- that idea of biomass, in which that which lives becomes the extension of the machine, rather than the other way around.
Mmm, I understand what you're getting at but from what I remember of the book (it's been a few years, please forgive me) the two you're talking about that failed were relatively privileged little girls who in at least one case had separate tutors, school etc, and this played into why it failed, because they abandoned the TYLIP whenever it challenged them or made them uncomfortable. Moreover, TYLIP didn't just work with Nell, it worked with the whole Mouse Army, hundreds of thousands of young girls. Nell not having her birth mother and being functionally "adopted" by the ractor whose name starts with M was a huge part of Nell's character growth, and a parable about children failed by the system who can be so much more if they have someone to love them, but I don't think it was the only reason TYLIP worked. I do remember the book gesturing at what you're talking about though, specifically when it was examining the difference between Nell and those two other relatively privileged little girls. Moreover, my understanding was not that those other two girls had a purely automated TYLIP, it was that the ractors their TYLIPs automatically hired were short-term gigs, while Nell's was someone who stuck with her long term (and was invested and nurturing, as you say). In fact I'm not 100% sure, but I think the whole Mouse Army may have had fully automated TYLIPs that ended up turning out quite well for them. The general trend seems to be that young girls who had no other parental or authority figures bonded very well to the ~~wire monkey~~ TYLIP and developed well because they stuck with it, while those who had human alternatives chose those alternatives as soon as the TYLIP challenged them and therefore did not stick with it and succeed. Doesn't exactly leave us with a policy prescription, but it's still an interesting story.
Basically, I agree that anyone seeking to replicate the TYLIP should at least have an answer for this objection because I see it raised every time TYLIP comes up, but the book's actual contents on this issue is pretty complicated and I'm not sure it's obvious that the books version of events is accurate to real life, or even that it maps cleanly onto a "human touch good, wire mother bad" framework.
I'm not exactly going to bat for child soldiering here, but I find the idea that the Primer harmed them very strange. The Primer saved them from dying in a horrific war where they had no allies and successfully got them out of that war.
From my perspective, that characterization has taken on an even more interesting turn now that I have read through a history of Chinese martial arts, and its role throughout the centuries and modernization. Regardless of whether the project succeeded or failed, that subplot was very much in line with the themes and patterns of Chinese history.
I don't see the fascism angle, though. What about the Mouse Army was a fascist story? I thought their story was good, aside from how the author justified the existence of this large group of unwanted children.
Yes, the LT is in China. It's an analogous situation to Hong Kong, physically it is in China, but as its name suggests ("Leased Territories") it is controlled by outsiders, hence the anger of groups like the Fists.
Anyway, sorry for getting sidetracked. I just can't stop thinking about Wheel of Time since the second season finished, what an incredible series of television. I haven't felt this way about a TV show since early Game of Thrones.
I'm not sure I understand this. Female infanticide due to the One Child Policy happened -- and similar things happened in previous eras of Chinese history by the Han ethnicity. So I'm not sure what you are saying here about an extrapolation.
I am not sure where you are getting the idea that people in the Imperial eras were capable of determining the sex of fetuses, and proceeding with abortion. As far as I know, that is a modern thing enabled by modern technology. If you are suggesting that people heard of this modern practice and projected it falsely into the past … I had thought so to, until I read through a history of Chinese martial arts.
China’s history is very complex. There were imbalances in sex ratios, with large numbers of unmarried, unemployed men skilled in violence destabilizing the society, throughout centuries. By the Ming dynasty, every village trained militias because they had to, and it was a thin line into banditry. Villages, convoys — those were raided. Women kidnapped, and raped. It was a big enough problem that the Ming literates and intelligentsia talked about it, and it grew worse during the Qing.
Corruption among local officials wasn’t minor. It was rampant. Land ownerships had locked people out of economic opportunities, and abusive landowners were the norm. Sects, secret societies were formed for a variety of reason, including mutual protection. Those were the seeds for the near constant uprisings and rebellions during the Qing dynasty, culminating to the Taiping Civil War (14 years of fighting, 20-30 million dead, 600 cities razed). That sex ratio imbalanced was a factor leading to all of this.
China also has the world’s most complex watershed in the world, when taking agriculture into consideration. The only other comparable watershed in terms of complexity is that of the Sacramento River basin, and it does not compare to the scale of the Yellow River basin. The flooding of the Yellow River is frequent. Feast and famine is deeply ingrained in Chinese culture (“have you eaten?” is the equivalent of “how have you been?”). We are talking mass displacement of refugees and widespread hunger during the bad time. Even if it were not wars, rebellions, or bandits, this alone sets the circumstances for desperate times.
You can call female infanticide “racism” if you like, but I think doing so denies the misery and cruelty buried in history.
As for me, this — both the good and bad — are a part of my heritage. Female infanticide is one thread out of many that had happened. It’s in owning the whole thing that reform is possible.
BTW the r'actor giving up her career, and in many ways her life seemed strange and unlikely when I read the book long ago. But now, after kids, it seems realistic, especially because it satisfied her need to nurture.
But anyway, I would say that what happened with nell was what they hoped would happen, and the book attributes that success to the bonds with people through the primer. What happens with the other girls is impressive & impactful, but not expected and so "failed" by the standards of those who made it for a specific purpose.
My main objection is to the idea a couple of other people have raised here (and I've seen raised elsewhere when TYLIP/LLMs are discussed) that the book says children raised by the Primer are bad/poorly raised/broken without a 1-1 human connection, and therefore it's silly/Torment Nexus to be interested in the idea. I can see you don't believe that's what the book says, but even so I agree that people should have a response for this criticism, because it will always come when you take inspiration from science fiction. I saw someone say it about the neural lace and Neuralink, for example, which is probably the dumbest one I've seen because of how unambiguously good the neural lace is in the Culture. A much better criticism is that Musk is Veppers, that the entire idea of the Culture is opposed to him and people like him, and that Iain Banks would hate his guts.
That refutation stuck with me all these years. I remember being very much inspired by the Primer and poking around with that idea. But the more I explore things like, Consciousness, awareness, or ideas like regenerative education, unschooled, or John Gatto Taylor's book ... that refutation gets louder and louder for me.
It's easy to say, this is a work of fiction, that Stephenson did not have sufficient vision or technical prowess to pull it off. That somehow, LLMs will overcome the problems, and that we can truly have autonomous education ... that it seems unlikely that somehow, someone who was fully engaged with the nurturing of a child through reading lines given to her was somehow able to do what the AI alone could not.
Still -- being present makes a huge difference.