Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music
music.ishkur.com
music.ishkur.com
I'm looking forward to AI models that can describe, classify, and recommend music. Obviously there's Shazam and things like Cyanite (https://cyanite.ai/) but hopefully there will be some good open source models too shortly.
You could imagine Ishkur's Guide V3 is constructed automatically by AI models, and places every track somewhere on the map, listing all the genres and influences, etc.
Then to refine its model, it'd have you rate some picks (old and new based on what it knows so far), and analyze how your responses fit its model. Would it get better faster for people who like a wide variety, or those with a few specialities?
Sadly it never seemed to really scale and even to this day Pandora doesn't recommend the same broad swaths of music that Spotify does, but Pandora's recommendations tend to be more on point.
The best model is/was the Pandora's Music Genome Project - but likely due to the fact that it is heavily supplemented with human input.
Given the progress across many AI applications in the past year I certainly wouldn't bet on this continuing to be true.
Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26212706 - Feb 2021 (9 comments)
Iskhur's Guide to Electronic Music - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25083516 - Nov 2020 (1 comment)
Ishkur's Guide to Electronic Music - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20744571 - Aug 2019 (71 comments)
And while we're on the topic, and because it's rare for me to get to chat about DnB with anyone... here are some fun short stories from over the years:
A friends Dad happened by when I was listening to DnB without headphones and said "THAT is NOT music... it sounds like a toilet flushing".
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I like listening to DnB during focus-intensive work. On a road trip with friends I'd been working without music for a bit and when I finally put headphones on with some DnB my friends were cracking up saying that I started typing at warp speed once the music started. Hey, it works for me!
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I was wearing a Bass Drive radio t-shirt underneath an unbuttoned long sleeve shirt, so if you can picture it opened down the center and partially obscuring both sides of the large "Bass Drive" logo, and a friend starts staring at my chest and chuckling. I ask what's so funny and he says "Heh-heh... why're you wearing an "ass doctor" shirt?". "ass Dr", ha.
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I use to work on the computer late into the night at a friend's house and he had a roommate who lived in the basement. I usually worked at the dining room table, which happened to be directly above the roommate's bed, with a hardwood floor between us, and on more than one occasion he'd come upstairs half-asleep and say "PLEASE stop tapping your feet on the floor". The last thing I'd ever want to do is torture him awake with that, but I'd be so into the DnB in my headphones that it was happening subconsciously.
The funniest take on this I've ever heard is the sketch at the end of DJ Freaky Flow's mix cd from 2001: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lIcptQ2RfA
> Brostep has one good track: Charlie Sheen's raging cokehead rant
> The Swedish House Mafia is a dingleberry clinging to the ass hair of electronic music. Seriously, what sort of horrendous ear sandpaper like One needs three god damn producers?
> PS: If you're coming here from Pitchfork, go f*ck yourself.
"You ever have one of those really sticky poos where you've pinched it off but it's clinging to your sphincter for dear life, and you don't want to get up and wipe because that would take a lot of toilet paper, so you just kinda sit there helpless, and maybe wiggle around a bit to try and shake it off?
And then after a few minutes gravity does its job and the turd finally detaches from your rectum and drops into the bowl with a satisfying ker-plunk?
Well guess what: They make music like that now."
> ...every kick for just a fraction of a second, adding a new dimension of chunky French goodness.
> French House is still around because anything this addictively funky will never die. Just like Disco.
Is it true that there just aren't any major new genres and subcultures with music? I know people will respond with "I love new genre X" which will turn out to be a handful of bedroom djs on soundcloud. There needs to be some notability standard for a genre which IMHO is that there are multiple clubs that specialise in it and larger clubs have a regular night for it showing some general appeal. Anything else is just some micro-niche that should be categorised under an existing genre.
Disclaimer, I know nothing about DnB. I'm just commenting on how it seems a lot of things have developed in recent years due to the pervasiveness of the internet.
Therefore I think your impression that their absence "...might be explained in part by Ishkur's own age / detachment..." is correct.
They are the only unfamiliar things among a sea of the old familiars: house, techno, dnb, garage, electro etc. I see a fair amount of "Dark Wave" which is not electronic and not new but not a common term back when I might have been going to gigs.
Melodic female lead was always there in DnB e.g. Goldie's timeless.
> latest Subfocus album
I don't want to offend... but clicking through that... my god that is some nauseating garbage lol! The electronic aspect sounds like a typical 90s dnb video game menu background music and the vocals are the commercial dance music banality that cuts me like fingernails on a blackboard. You are allowed to call be grandad in return :)
> Counterstrike
Sounds like what I would hear at a typical dnb night back in the 90s that was on the harder side. Not sure why that counts as a new genre. Isn't it what Ishkur would call darkstep?
Let see if my kids find this as magical as I did
For a couple of decades Tangerine Dream have been my go-to coding music - along with Eno and Harold Budd, and more recently Max Richter, for when I need something less driven.
Loved reading through the Info Panels and the FAQs but the UI is a bit clunky to work with. Is there an official dataset? Would love to try my hand at building a different UI around it.
Did you try mix shows? The BBC Essential Mix is a really really good one playing since 1993. 2 hour show each week made by one performer. It's pretty much the only music I listen nowadays.
And unlike the iPlayer the BBC Sounds is not geolocked so it's really easy to access.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/b006wkfp (they have smartphone apps too)
There is also a classic version, replaying old shows https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/b00f3pc4
And if I may link my top 5 favorite mixes (you might find something nice to listen to)
Daft Punk from 1997 https://soundcloud.com/retailgroup/daft-punk-essential-mix-1...
Justice from 2007 https://soundcloud.com/ahlstrominfo/essential-mix-10-06-2007
Sharam (Deep Dish) from 2009 https://soundcloud.com/home_42/sharam-essential-mix-2009-08
Skrillex from 2013 https://soundcloud.com/skrillex/skrillex-bbc-radio-1-essenti...
Ben Böhmer from 2021 https://soundcloud.com/irrrregoyn/ben-bohmer-essential-mix-1...
audio
https://soundcloud.com/grimgringo/tom-middleton-star-wars
tracklist
https://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/essentialmix/tracklistingarchiv...
https://soundcloud.com/otherpeoplerecords/csp06-nicolas-jaar...
https://caribouband.bandcamp.com/
As an entry point, start with the song Melody Day:
> As an entry point, start with the song Melody Day
In perhaps a fit of grand irony, the first comment on this album on BandCamp:
> richly textured and passionate psychedelic music. mostly not electronic at all.
2. If you want to try stuff that's slightly more "pure" electronic music, the sub-genre that made it click for me is "Chicago House".
3. I'd also check out Orchard Lounge on Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/lokkenic/live_at_club_love_nyc
Bunch of recent shows available free on bandcamp too for a taste of modern Lotus
I saw Lotus in February and they absolutely slayed. One of the tightest live shows I've ever seen. Stage lighting was also some of the most impressive I've witnessed. And Tim can friggin shred.
I've been listening to some french EDM for the last few years, artists like French 79, Point Point, Nhyx, N'to, and Spotify tells me this is 'french new touch' but I've never seen that genre described elsewhere, and when I tell people about it they have never heard of it. I feel like there's a better term.
IMO what Spotify calls New French Touch isn't really a genre unto itself, more just a broad encapsulation of modern electronic music, predominantly from France, that retains some of the original DNA – whether that's the technical aspects, disco-samples, family trees of producers / labels, etc.
Colloquially I still just call it French House, even if that's technically inaccurate. The genre has evolved and been diluted with elements from other genres to the point of being extinct by its original definition, but the vibes live on :)
It tells me French 79 is "French indietronica" whatever that is. You can branch out from here though.
> 'Electronica' does not exist. Not as a genre or a description. It was coined by the North American music press to refer to the second wave of electronic music's explosion in the late 90s.
Nearly every popular act of the period -- Daft Punk, Moby, Fatboy Slim, Prodigy, Chemical Brothers, Basement Jaxx, Tricky -- were marketed as 'Electronica' at one time or another, but the person who really popularized it was Madonna and her shallow William Orbit-produced piss-poor attempt at appropriating trance music as something she invented (Ray of Light). But there really isn't any actual thing called Electronica. It's just a corporate buzzword.
This is a PSA from the official Electronic Music Genre Standards and Classifications Consortium.
The scene I’m into right now is blossoming yet underrepresented. There’s some artists out there really pushing the envelope. I highly recommend Of The Trees, Daily Bread, Esseks, FRQ NCY, and IMANU, for starters.
Some friends pushed me to dive into Techno about a year ago. Totally different animal. I’m not quite “there” yet in terms of my understanding and appreciation for that musical movement, but I the juice is there and it is indeed sweet.
- Moombahton is shown as derived from Miami Bass, however it's a hybrid of Reggaeton and Dutch House. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moombahton
- Reggaeton is shown as being derived from R&B. It's much more of an offshoot of Dancehall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dembow
- House and Techno are shown as having independent roots, however they are deeply intertwined.
- There is a big important relationship between Rap and Funk and R&B, and even Disco. missing here.
- Why does Pendulum (a band) get a node on here? There is no such genre as Pendulum.
- Missing genres that are fairly important (Halftime D&B, Jungle (not just Ragga Jungle))
- Lots of questionable genres on here (Freeland breaks? really? As in Adam Freeland?.. Come on no one ever talked about Freeland breaks as a distinct genre)
Anyways this is pretty much an impossible task given the multidimensional relationships between all the genres, and an endless variety of perspectives and nomenclatures. So, great job Ishkur keep it up!
For example, there was the drill and bass DJ who spoke of Freeland basslines in reverential terms (before stealing and pawning off about $5k worth of a friend’s synthesizers). I still hate that dude. Or the drug dealers who dressed like happy hardcore fans but maintained that hard house was the one true genre. Or there was the great PLUR debate of 1994 when peace, love, unity and respect fell out of favour. It was replaced by Hakim Bey-esque temporary autonomous zones.
(I wish I was making that part about TAZ up. In our defense, we were all high and kind of felt like we were changing the world like our parents did in the 1960s.)
25 years later, the scenesters are all in their late 40s or 50s and the satire seems lost. But those of old folks who were around back in the day remember all the arguments and love how this site parodies them.
Maybe this is deeply familiar to people who were adjacent to it, but how did this happen, and what replaced them? Were these things a kind of motto of some scene or community, and then did other people challenge that status?
And were the proponents of these things called "PLURalists"?
Second, this is going back a long time and I was pretty full of myself back in the day so some of what I’m about to say is kind of embarrassing. I’ll try to give a modern interpretation of it as well.
My biggest and most enduring memory was when rave had its own September that never ended. Scenes used to be small and tight. It was primarily because promoters didn’t have the money for advertising AND traditional venues refused to host parties. When scenes were small they were very loving and open. It was a place where everyone who didn’t fit in, fit in. Society at large was very homophobic and conservative. But none of that mattered - if you were there, you were cool and we all loved you exactly how you were. Now I get lost here because MDMA was involved. Was it PLUR or the fact that a lot of people were on the same drug? I don’t know the answer. But I do know that I was completely straight edge in the beginning but got deeper involved as soon as I started taking MDMA. I’m leaning more towards believing it was just the drugs.
But then things changed all of a sudden and turnouts started to double or triple. Then there was serious money to be made and the early scene was diluted by people who wanted to make money. That brought in drug dealers, more business minded promoters and eventually sponsorships.
Drugs started to change. Alcohol went from club nights to every single party. When alcohol hit, we had to start hiring the kind of security that would work as bouncers in bars. Some had great attitudes. Others just wanted to beat the shit out of kids.
Cocaine was always a small part of the scene and that was an issue but methamphetamine got much more popular. Meth and alcohol are a bad combination and when security is violent everyone is violent. So fights started getting more common. And as word got out that there were drug dealers with a lot of cash at events, a new element started coming to rob them. Then the weapons came.
Around this time, promoters started putting the words “no thugs, no drugs, no weapons” and “ROAR” (right of admission refused) on flyers. The first actually attracted more of the wrong kinds of people. And the second pissed off the right kinds of people.
DJ’s also started getting ripped off by promoters. In the early days, they kind of filled the role of shaman. A lot of those early DJs who loved the music and the scene stopped playing records. It was just too expensive to be professional and want to throw a good show if there was a 40% chance you would get paid. Everyone was a DJ so the problem didn’t seem acute. But in retrospect, losing a lot of those really early DJs hurt the scene more than we knew. Those DJs used to play for free for new promoters, help them get their feet wet and introduce them to all their DJ friends. They were the on ramp to professionalism.
Looking back, a big problem was that we didn’t believe in anything. Philosophically, we saw ourselves as the 1990s version of flower children. But in the 1960s they had civil rights and the Vietnam war. We had hedonism. In the beginning, we kind of had gay rights but when the September that never ended hit we brought a lot of people in at once. Really deep homophobia came into the scene. In 1992, I could go to parties and see gay men openly and comfortably celebrating being in love. By 1996, there was a high probability of gay bashing at parties. By 1998, the scene was as toxic as high schools.
Basically, parties were neither peaceful nor loving. There was no unity and at $5 for a bottle of water, promoters weren’t even demonstrating respect for their guests. PLUR just didn’t exist and it was kind of like believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
But here’s where I get lost in being full of myself. We stopped throwing parties in 2002. I was burned out and didn’t care anymore. Did any of that actually happen or was I just so self absorbed that I couldn’t see through my burn out and depression?? I believe it happened and all my friends from that time agree. But they were part of the crew and we threw parties together so they were maybe just as burned out, tired and depressed as me??
I love your question and wish I would have thought of that back in the day. Right now, I’m envisioning a costume party where the theme was ‘stereotypical ravers.’ It would have great to throw that party with you and we could have had so much fun.
The most common plural form (at least in my city) was “positive party people”. “Rave” quickly became a very bad swear word.
Isn't that Drumstep? If not, I'd love some examples because that sounds very much up my alley.
> Why does Pendulum (a band) get a node on here? There is no such genre as Pendulum.
The guide actually explains that if you click on the dot:
"Pendulum is not the name of this genre. It's technically called Nu Jumpup or Nu Skool Jumpup but I call it Pendulum because Pendulum is more than just an artist or a genre.
It is an event.
It is one of those events that is so monumental that when people talk about history, they unconsciously draw a line between stuff that happened before the event and stuff that happened after (ie: "we are living in a post X world", where X is something earth-shattering like the atomic bomb or 9/11). We are witness to one of these life-changing events in Drum n Bass. Welcome to the Pendulum Age."
I'm a big fan of a lot of stuff from Fixate, Fracture, Dr. Jeep, Ivy Lab, dBridge, Dub Phizix. None of these artists are exclusively in the genre, but they all have some great examples of this kind of music.
and oooh has jump-up changed sonic properties since the time of Pendulum (let alone Aphrodite)..!
edit: newer jump-up mix examples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUcmV6Mr-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfaD8sYTmiU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j-d_i_arYU
post-horns, fairly bassline influenced, sommit like that..
E.g. Clark, Max Cooper, Rival Consoles, Jon Hopkins, Arca are often described as "techno" or "electronica" but in a very broad sense. These descriptors are just umbrella terms. It's like describing both King Crimson and Blink-182 as "guitar music".
Calling themselves "junglists"
Ishkur's guide introduced me to so many styles of music I knew I immediately needed more of, like gabber (which I notice is now just lumped in with "hardcore"), techstep, darkpsy... to name a few!
Thanks for this gem!
But I guess it would end in endless edit wars. It took over 10 years to get some genres fixed on Discogs, people are unfortunately very stubborn about these things. Even with the artists saying their music is style X the mods wouldn't budge.
Also, genres are fake.
I will always defend that buttrock is a real subgenre of psytrance. I don't care if Ishkur meant it as a joke or that nobody in the scene recognizes it.
FWIW I also don't think artists themselves should be some kind of final arbiters on what genre their music is; "death of the author" and all that. Early italo disco musicians would probably not "correctly" categorize their music as something new and separate from the disco they were trying to emulate, for example.
Anyone should feel free to make "{HN handle's} Guide to Electronic Music"
Ishkur has never been anything but transparent that these are 120% his own opinions. (Mostly ranting about white Europeans ripping off funk rhythms :D)
I'm reminded of The Immortal Bard by Asimov. A professor of Physics gets drunk and is talking to an English teacher, telling him how he can bring people from the past to the present. At first it sounds like a drunken, but good story, but he explains that older scientists were unable to wrap their mind around the world as it is now, so he needed a more adaptable, universal, creative mind, and brings Shakespeare, who adjusts well.
Eventually he enrolled Shakespeare in a night school class on Shakespeare's plays—taught, as it happens, by the English teacher, who begins to become genuinely worried. He recalls a bald man with an unusual accent, and starts to doubt whether the story was all alcoholic fantasy. Timidly, he asks what happened, and the physicist explodes with anger. Shakespeare had been humiliated, he says, and had to be sent back to 1600: "You poor simpleton, you flunked him!"
People forget that Shakespeare was a Brummie.
Does anyone have pointers to streaming electronic music (ideally trance / progressive trance, upbeat synthwave[0], or house) that has absolutely no vocals?
I listened to a lot of no-vocal electronica back in the 80s but I can't find anywhere to stream it now, even just as a long playlist on Apple Music or Spotify, without a vocal track being dropped in. Vocals are fine but I like non-vocal/just-electronics tracks upbeat music as ambient or to listen to while zoning out.
I emailed SomaFM and di.fm to ask and they have one stream apiece that mostly fits the bill but maybe there are others out there?
0 - Upbeat because I know about "lofi beats to study by" and that's a bit too slow for what I'm after. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygXNgC94ZUk&list=PLE77D1EF33...
There's also Deep Mix Moscow Radio (probably more around soundcloud etc): https://archive.org/details/DeepMixMoscowRadioJuly1120160729...
My go-to deep work music when I don't have time to think is "techno bunker" with random playback. Some genres do not lend themselves to vocals very well and I hide inside of these as appropriate.
My other strategy with vocals is to listen to music in other languages, preferably stuff like German or Korean (you might even catch me listening to kpop while coding). Most romantic languages I can decipher enough to get distracted.
The only thing that comes close are finding specific artist's that don't use vocals much in their mixes. Cercle has a lot of great mixes that come close. Sebastian Leger's mix might be one of those. But some parts of the mix are a little distracting.
Gai Barone has hundreds of episodes of Patterns, most of it has no vocals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GPSqPjktuo
Same with John 00 Fleming (there is J00F sessions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1ye34nerFw and his monthly show J00F Radio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15QotV3QZvk , tho most of the episodes are on SoundCloud or any Podcast app). Vocals are pretty uncommon here too.
I'd start there and when you find a track you like, go to the tracklisting to find the music label, then check out more of their releases.
https://www.youtube.com/@hoer.berlin
https://soundcloud.com/vitamin1000
Not sure if it's exactly what you need tho, in terms of genre
One of my absolute favorite albums to drive, code or run to.
I've recently discovered FM-84. Eg:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5AuJF9v2Lw&list=OLAK5uy_lra...
Edit: some of their songs do have lyrics though.