If they're wrong then they won't accumulate upvotes. It's like comedy - if it's funny, people will laugh, if it's not, then they won't. This is why I'm not particularly a fan of the increasing unreadability of downvoted comments - it feels like silencing people. It also gives undue influence to the first readers of the piece and allows individuals or groups with agendas to target and downvote things they don't like with the aim of getting it taken out of the conversation early. I do unfortunately observe this behaviour on contentious topics more regularly than I would like.
If you don't agree with a comment, you should either just ignore it, leave a comment stating why you disagree or ask why the commentator has come to that conclusion. This is far more likely to have a positive impact than downvoting, which is only going to make someone feel attacked, alienated and misunderstood.
On Reddit, downvoting is always a matter of personal opinion, and so it took me a while to adjust to the downvoting style HN advocates for. But I'm mostly used to it now and I have to say I enjoy it. It makes me have to think more critically about why I want to downvote something. Many times I have stopped myself from downvoting something solely because I disagreed, not because it was hateful, racist, etc.
I'd check that box in a heartbeat.
@-moz-document domain("news.ycombinator.com") {
[title=downvote] {
display: none
}
[title=upvote] {
display: none
}
[id=karma] {
display: none
}
[class=score] {
display: none
}
}
That still lets you see that karma exists (and its value) on a user page (including your own). Those trs didn't have class or id info to let me easily hide them.(Obviously, don't include the "hide the upvote element" if you want to still be able to upvote content.)
Is this some kind of emotional response you're having to seeing votes? I don't understand how it would improve the experience.
> Please don't [...] Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it
By trying to argue that is a completely lost cause. Most redditors think the purpose of a downvote is to indicate disagreement.
[0] https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-R...
I'd love quadrant or orange slice style voting where you have multiple options like "I agree" or "good content" and the converse options, but tiny phone interfaces really tend to limit what people can click on.
Slashdot did it better:) I guess https://slashdot.org/faq/metamod.shtml is a decent link? Basically, instead of just upvote, you get funny/interesting/informative/etc. and instead of just downvote/flag you get offtopic/troll/offtopic/etc.
You are completely right, but I would say it's even worse than this. I believe it has become an established community norm, not only to reflexively downvote, but to treat complaints or concerns about this behavior as poor form which is out of bounds, and which is also downvoted.
And so the bad down voting behavior is there, and because it's the mindless mass, and reflexively defense itself when it gets called out, a community norm of enshrining this bad behavior has crystallized.
edit for source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
I'm a work in progress and striving to be better and I think that's all you can ask of anyone really. We're all at various stages of development and none of us know what's going on in the life of the people we're talking to. You could be speaking to a teenager with very little life experience who's just ignorant and doesn't really understand the consequences of the position they're arguing for or you could have someone in the 60s who's just lost their spouse and had their whole life come crashing down around them. Downvoting is going to help neither of these people, but leaving a comment might. In the case of the former, what's obvious to you isn't so obvious to them, so you can help enlighten. In the case of the latter, sometimes if you can say the right thing or ask the right question it can help them right themselves.
It doesn't even have to be that extreme, I've had plenty of debates on here that end up arriving at a point of mutual agreement which is always nice and often leads to growth on both sides.
dang explicitly refutes this:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15310088>
Downvoting content that runs afoul of HN guidelines and/or drags discussions in uninteresting directions is functioning as intended:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22891768>
(Searching Algolia with "by:dang <terms>" (in comments) is a useful way to check for moderator views on a particular topic or question.)
"by:dang downvote disagree" <https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...>
Agree. Take my upvote.
> If you don't agree with a comment... leave a comment stating why you disagree or ask why the commentator has come to that conclusion. This is far more likely to have a positive impact than downvoting, which is only going to make someone feel attacked, alienated and misunderstood. Disagree. Take my downvote.I upvote comments that I think are particularly interesting and downvote comments I think aren't worth reading (criteria: factual errors or inflammatory language/positions, like blatant racism).
Comments I disagree with (e.g. somebody claiming distributed blockchains or crypto currency have some sort of value) I just ignore (I have never seen such comments combined with racism, so wouldn't downvote).
that's how i felt initially when i got downvotes. but eventually i got used to it and as time went on i noticed that comments that were downvoted were usually more opinionated in the sense that it was reasonable and to be expected for someone to disagree. and realizing that made it much easier to accept the downvote as just that, a disagreement.
now it gets really interesting when i get a downvote and later an upvote. then i always wonder did the initial downvoter change their mind, or did someone else upvote. sometimes i'd really like to know.
for myself i downvote comments that i strongly disagree with and also comments that demonstrate a lack of understanding of the comment they respond to, or look like they are not reading the parent comment in good faith, or are belaboring their point, especially when it is clear that the other party already understood them the first time. in other words i downvote what i think are bad contributions to a discussion.
I downvote comments that attack or degrade people ad-hominem and such or that derail the topic or try to bait people.
I can upvote (or downvote) for content that I agree/disagree with as well as how much the comment does/doesn't contribute to the debate, as you suggest. Sometimes those are finely enough balanced for me not to do either!
I tend to reserve downvotes for things that are inflammatory or shallow or dishonest or similar.
I still cannot downvote... What means I am only allowed to have a positive attitude with other's comments.
P.D. What karma do you actually need to gain the right to downvote?
Seen frequent references to 500 though.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7606145
Here is a nice list of HN features. https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented/blob/m...
Upvote thoughtful / substantive comments, regardless of personal opinion. Downvote unthoughtful / unsubstantive comments, regardless of personal opinion.
On other platforms, I have come to believe that it is healthier for me to reply to content that I feel good about upvoting, and just moving on if I am tempted to downvote.
I downvote things that I think are factually wrong, or things that are opinions but are stated as fact and are (IMO) wrong. I also downvote hostility, aggression, name calling, flamebait/trolling, blatant politics, spam, bad faith arguments. I sometimes downvote arguing without actually listening to the parent's argument.
Similarly, I downvote things that I don't perceive as a positive use of time for me or for anyone else. Spam, grossly incorrect information, deliberately inflammatory comments meant to elicit a certain reaction, etc.
If a comment was a waste of time for me personally, but I can see how someone else might benefit from seeing it, I'll do nothing.
- Upvote posts and comments I'd like to see represented, are insightful, and/or make me think.
- Downvote: posts against HN guidelines (either in source material or the submission contents, e.g., editorialised title, duplicate submission), comments which don't add to the discussion.
I've been making a point of upvoting what I read as sincere substantive engagement even where that disagrees with me. One aspect of HN I find frustrating is that there's rarely much by way of substantive discussion, and HN's own systems often read that as a flamewar (e.g., a thread that's nested deeply and shifted far to the right). That's often the case but is not always the case.
With time I'm finding myself more favourably inclined to systems that have "flat" discussion threads. Google+ was one of these, and effectively each response was simply appended to the end of the thread. Conventions of mentioning an earlier reply and quoting a small bit of context emerged. The dyanmics and mechanics of posts differed from HN: there was always a directly-involved moderator (effectively), the post's own author. Whether or not that author would moderate, and how fairly they did so, of course, varied tremendously. People who were good at this, though, often had excellent discussions.
Threads were capped at 500 comments. Good discussion typically had probably on the order of 10--50 active participants tops (and often fewer). That was enough for a number of comments from each, and threads rarely hit the cap (though occasionally did). The end result read far more like a transcript of a real-life conversation than, say, HN or Reddit threads (or Usenet back in the day).
Again, HN tends not to produce such interactions, though they occur occasionally. Reddit is even worse for this --- it's where conversations go to die.
I haven't been good about upvoting posts, but when I do it's because I find them interesting.
When there are no ranks (or even usernames), you need to use your own thinking to evaluate the posts. Even if it requires more scrolling, it's worth it. If you are looking for the hot parts of the discussion, you can use the number of replies to a given post as a proxy — it could be considered a UI issue of HN that it's not shown very clearly here.
No vote: most things
Down vote: actively ignoring what someone is saying, "why doesn't this blog have a dark theme"
Flag: spam
Only place I try to keep to those ideals! I'm guilty of only upvoting/liking stuff I agree with fully on other sites, but really trying to use "was interesting enough to reread" as a metric for upvoting here.
Why do I do this? It's my little contribution to the community to push the garbage to the side and let the good stuff rise to the top and spur good discussion.
I downvote things that are rude, mostly terse point scoring behavior (not addressing what was said but implying something about the poster).
I flag outright aggro stuff.
I will check out the downvoted replies, and if there's no good reason for it to be downvoted I'll vote it up. And if something is really very informative and low on the list I'll vote it up.
I'll have to stop myself from voting up the jokes, though I'll never vote them down.
I'll upvote jokes if they're clever and genuinely funny.
I'll downvote jokes that are low effort and reddit-like. Like if I saw a "Google en passant" chain, I'd downvote all three comments.
I downvote all the off-topic, hobby-horse-pushing, badly-informed, self-interested or -aggrandising, wrong, mean and repetitive comments, it's basically a full-time job.
Maybe the color doesn't draw my eye enough.
it seems random when I really assess something I like.
Sometimes when I see good content that has a low vote count I upvote it.
I also upvote answers to my comments. Also when I disagree with them, as long as they’re not toxic.
I generally don’t downvote.
[title=downvote] {
display: none
}
I had an already high upvote:downvote ratio, but this made me even more conscious of the few times I bothered to downvote a comment (because it meant I had to take extra steps to disable that CSS). I mostly only downvote for flamebait or outrageously unproductive comments.Just kidding. I only vote on comments, and pretty rarely.
I upvote comments I agree with.
I upvote comments I disagree with, but other people seem to agree with.
I downvote obnoxious or distateful comments.
I don't vote much in big threads, cause I'm not sure it's "fair" to lower ranked threads to only vote on the top threads. This is hardly a hard and fast rule for myself though, because sometimes the top thread is top for a reason and deserves a vote!
For upvoting, I vote based on if it was something I was going to say (no need to say it again), if it was interesting, if it was provocative but soundly sourced, or just all around well expressed.
What I really focus on when downvoting is posts made in bad faith. If someone is setting up a false dichotomy, strawman, hiding behind "just asking questions", or otherwise being disingenuous, I downvote. I'm here for a discussion, not to play those types of games...
For comments, I'll upvote insight or prosocial behaviour (praise directed at a free software author's comment, say). Plus, anything by people who are clearly authoritative and making posts which contain valuable perspectives. Plus, anything people need to hear.
Downvotes I try to reserve for people who are rude, clueless, or obtuse. An example here might be the "but solar panels use fossil fuels for their production" types of comments where the obvious next question - "do they produce more energy than they take to make?" - is left unasked and unanswered by the poster. Disingenuous comments, in other words.
I wish I could double-downvote to obtuse comments, specifically the people who are not only needlessly pedantic, but outright wrong in their pedantry.
1. I find this interesting
2. I agree with this
3. This is cool
4. I learned something new
5. Bookmarking purposes
I usually downvote for these reasons:
1. This is trolling
2. This is a terrible/dumb take
3. This is a really over the top political comment that really has nothing (or very little) to do with the subject
4. This is misinformation
Overall I upvote a lot more than I downvote and I do so many times a day.