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Comment by threeseed | Hacker News Reader

So the DOJ press release [1] states that SpaceX was discriminating against asylees and refugees which is in breach of the Immigration and Nationality Act.

Not sure why you think it is unfair for the US government to be enforcing the law. Especially when these are people who are in the US legally and are more than likely on a pathway to US citizenship.

Would anyone here seriously want a situation where tech companies would only hire US citizens and not those on relevant work visas ? This would decimate the whole industry.

[1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-space...

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Giving technical details to a foreign citizen is considered an export of ITAR or other restricted information and can get you personally locked in federal prison.

Please read the link I posted.

"Moreover, asylees’ and refugees’ permission to live and work in the United States does not expire, and they stand on equal footing with U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents under export control laws"

There are pathways for it to happen. But you need a team of specialized lawyers, training for all employees, controls, etc.

None of this is free.

ITAR is comolex, and a pain in the ass, sure. But it does not, by any means, make it illegal for non-US citizens to get ITAR equipment or information. Because US citizens outside the US also fall under ITAR restrictions. You over simplified that topic a lot.

Edit: Thinking of it, getting ITAR stuff to people and places ourside the US is the point of ITAR.

I overly simplify it because I need to consult a lawyer any time I deal with it. I do not want to accidentally "export" anything. You need specialized lawyers to deal with this and be compliant, it's not cheap, and I personally default to not chancing it with prison.

One of the benefits of a large org, they take care of that. Including any fines for any violations!

ITAR refers to "us persons" not "us citizens". Which includes asylees and refuges in America.

I found one of SpaceX's job postings from 2019: https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175439/https://boards.gr...

The DOJ alleges that they excluded asylees and refugees in their job postings. But this doesn't exclude asylees or refugees. It says applicants have to be citizens, permanent resident, or protected individuals as defined in the law: > To conform to U.S. Government space technology export regulations, including the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) you must be a U.S. citizen, lawful permanent resident of the U.S., protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3), or eligible to obtain the required authorizations from the U.S. Department of State.

The referenced law is the one referenced by the DOJ that includes asylees and refugees.

This job posting that is for top-secret cleared individuals has the same language: https://web.archive.org/web/20190513175514/https://boards.gr...

I think the DoJ case is deep enough that a trivial search via the way back machine isn’t going to sink it.

If not then maybe they really do need money for more competent staff.

Can refugees get security clearance?

Does Northrop Grumman hire refugees and asylees? Does Lockheed Martin?

Securoty clearance, after getting a visa and work permit? Sure, why not?

And not all jobs at those companies require clearance, far from it actually.

> Securoty clearance, after getting a visa and work permit? Sure, why not?

Clearance requires US citizenship.

> And not all jobs at those companies require clearance, far from it actually.

This is the more important point.

See, clearance in Europe doesn't require citizenship. It does make it a lot easier so.

> Clearance requires US citizenship

"...if a non-U.S. citizen requires access to U.S. classified information and meets the requirements of the 32 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) 117.10(k), a Limited Access Authorization (LAA) no higher than the Secret level may be issued."

https://www.dcsa.mil/Industrial-Security/International-Progr...

> ... but the LAA is not a national security eligibility. Access to classified will be limited to a specific program or project and will be cancelled upon the completion of the program or project for which it was approved...

I mean, I originally thought about lengthening my answer to point out that there are limited ways to allow people of extraordinary necessity to work on classified projects, but I figured it wasn't necessary.

> Clearance requires US citizenship.

How do you think information is shared amongst NATO? Do they get American citizenship for a day?

Not every Clearance do not require US citizenship.

Not that I want US citizenship, but if that was the case...

> How do you think information is shared amongst NATO? Do they get American citizenship for a day?

For NATO, you carry in security clearance from a member nation.

Not every role at SpaceX requires clearance.

But every role requires being a US person due to ITAR regulations.

That's not what ITAR says so.

All roles at SpaceX are ITAR restricted, including janitors etc. SpaceX could set up physical separation to allow them to hire non-ITAR employees, but they are not required to.

ITAR restricted roles are restricted to "US persons". SpaceX confused that terminology with "US citizens", but "US persons" is a broader term than "US citizens".

Why the hell does a janitor need ITAR accreditation (the right term, as one can have ITAR access without any kind of security clearance whatsoever)?

And I can assure you, outside the US, even Chinese nationals can have access to ITAR equipment and data. I am no US person neither, and I had in the past. As does every single user of US military gear in nations the US exports to...

Because SpaceX doesn't want their engineers to have to worry about when & where they can talk about work while they're at work.

Source? Because thisnis the first time I ever heard of that interpretation of ITAR in my whole life...

Edit: That approach could get you sued for discrimination so.

The why is hearsay and speculative. But all jobs at SpaceX are ITAR (https://www.spacex.com/careers/jobs/), and the DOJ apparently has no problem with that part of it.

Just checked one job, all it says is, that the applicant must be able to obtain ITAR accreditation from the Department of State. Nothing really extraordinary in aerospace, especially for an US company. Weird so, that SoaceX is emphasizong the ITAR aspect so much, but then I have no experience how that is handled in the US, maybe that normal.

That being said, ITAR is not a job classification, ITAR covers the move of anything defense or dual use related (data, information, hardware...) outside the US with some weird things about nationalities of people handling those things. It has nothing to do with classified or secret information, that is something different in addition to ITAR.

The thing that puzzles me about roles like janitors: ITAR is "need to know, right to know", meaning if you don't have both, you don't need access to ITAR protected data. And since the normal janitor, or payroll admin, has neither nobody bothers those roles with ITAR normally...

SpaceX jobs used to say US Citizens only.

You might not be doing the work but you'll have access. You might overhear things. etc

As you point out, ITAR refers to "US Persons", and "US Persons" explicitly allows permanent residents, lawfully admitted temporary residents, and refugees. "or who is a protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3)"

...

(3)“Protected individual” defined As used in paragraph (1), the term “protected individual” means an individual who— (A)is a citizen or national of the United States, or (B)is an alien who is lawfully admitted for permanent residence, is granted the status of an alien lawfully admitted for temporary residence under section 1160(a) or 1255a(a)(1) of this title, is admitted as a refugee under section 1157 of this title, or is granted asylum under section 1158 of this title;

...

What about janitors at say, the Pentagon, the White House, and near the various SCIFs in the govt and mil.

That's classified information, requiring security clearance. ITAR does not require security clearance. As the name says International Traffic of Arms Regulation.

a) DOJ states that asylees/refugees are no different to US citizens with respect to export control laws.

b) US government issues security clearances not SpaceX so it is their call whether a candidate is suitable or not. And given that they are filing a lawsuit we can assume this is not an issue.

c) The issues raised by the DOJ do not relate specifically to security clearances.

What sort of security clearance is necessary to work at below average wages on a non-union assembly line? Or moderating what little hate speech still warrants attention on Ex-Twitter? Or digging tunnels under Las Vegas? Or installing solar batteries? Or servicing Teslas or charging stations? Or cleaning debris under mandate in the Boca Chica nature preserves bordering SpaceX’s “definitely not a launch pad” launch pad? Or working directly on Falcon rockets for that matter, since they aren’t exactly secret or weaponized?

> security clearance is necessary to work at below average wages on a non-union assembly line

SpaceX employees are very well compensated.

> working directly on Falcon rockets for that matter, since they aren’t exactly secret or weaponized

There is a long list of adversaries trying to develop technologies that approach SpaceX's. (Every missile program, for starters.)

You can require security clearance if the job requires it. You cannot forbid refugees and asylees from all jobs preemptively.

SpaceX has nothing to do with giving clearances. They just check if they are active (they can pay the government to investigate if someone should be given one)

And many workers will not require security clearance.

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