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Comment by LastTrain | Hacker News Reader

I used to think these Linus smack-downs were pretty funny. I guess I still kinda do, but I'm not proud of it. These were more appropriate when Linus was an underdog - now he's just being an asshole, or at the very least unprofessional. I've contributed Linux kernel code, thankfully several rungs below anything the God emperor would be looking at - I would have been wrecked by a review like this.

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The person confidently submitting this without understanding what they're doing is a serious problem. The kernel maintainers only have so much time. Spending it reviewing things that should have never made it to their inbox is going to piss them off.

Being frustrated with the quality of someone's work is understandable.

With a bit of practice it's possible to give the same feedback, but in a way that will encourage and teach, instead of what this was.

Teaching is way less efficient than filtering, unfortunately.

I used to think we should strive to make everybody grow. But the more I've been confronted with hard challenges and limited resources, the more I've had to filter out.

Now I lean toward "filter first, teach to what remains, repeat".

And yes, being tactless is a very good filter, even give the obvious side effects.

You’re just rationalizing your own bad behavior - it’s lazy.

Virtue signaling is lazier.

2016 terminology for shutting down people calling out bad behavior. Lazy. Going to call me a Karen next? Seriously, the world is not your sock puppet, boss. You’ll get just as much done being decent.

He did teach, if you read his words and don't take them personally - there were great explanations for why things were bad. Even still, as the man at the top, it's not really his job to encourage and teach.

Nobody emails the CEO of their org with a terrible idea due to complete lack of context, and then gets support from everyone saying "I can't believe he didn't take the time out of his day to nicely explain why you were wrong here!"

Linus is not the CEO of the Linux Foundation. His job is to review kernel patches. This email was not sent directly to Linus. Even if it isn't his job to encourage and teach it isn't his job to be unnecessarily rude in his reviews.

I know this - he's still a man whose time is in massive demand, and wasting it is a problem.

It sounds like people are assuming the author should have known better.

Is there some forum in which he could/should have vetted the patch before making this submission?

(Sincere question. I'm not very familiar with submitting kernel patches.)

How about ALL OF GOOGLE? Surely, someone there could have reviewed his code.

Google has a large number of experienced and dedicated kernel engineers who are well versed; it should have gone through thorough internal review with them first.

I can't speak to the current organizational structure but historically there's Linus and a few others at the center (e.g, Greg KH) and then you have circles of trust extending out. Someone is the key person for subsystem A and they trust someone below them for driver or widget B and you're expected to pass your patches through these channels and by the time they make it to Linus's inbox you should have a branch/patch with commits that follow all the rules and are ready for a final QA inspection, essentially.

Sometimes people and corporations with enough clout manage to slip by the normal processes and this is the result.

It isn't a serious problem if they have so much time to spare to write email threads like that one

If reviews of bad code can waste their time to the extent that it's a serious problem, the kernel maintainers failed to set up a sustainable process. If there is a volume of things that shouldn't get to your inbox, you make sure you have filters in place, you don't berate the senders.

Screaming loudly instead of addressing your own failure is of course a choice, but it's not a great one.

> If reviews of bad code can waste their time to the extent that it's a serious problem, the kernel maintainers failed to set up a sustainable process.

This patch is coming from google, are you suggesting that google just be added to some black list they have?

No, I'm not suggesting a blacklist. I'm not sure why you'd think "sustainable process" implies a blacklist.

What I am suggesting is that if you're so stressed out by the time you spend on reviewing things that you yell at people, maybe you should hand of some of the reviews to somebody else. (Especially if you believe, as OP - but not Linus - did that it "should have never made it to their inbox")

Yes, I understand that there's a limited number of kernel reviewers. And if the number is too low to deal with the flood of change requests, that's the definition of an unsustainable process.

It must be a cultural thing because I don't find those reviews devastating.

I would be fine being the recipient of this. It's simple, direct, clear, and give you a good sense of how bad things are and the priority of it.

If you fuck up, you fuck up.

I feel utterly disgusted by the opposite however. The "I like it but I don't love it" and other BS.

Feels like hypocrisy and frankly, behavior from people that don't have enough serious problems in their life to assess what is important and what is not.

> I feel utterly disgusted by the opposite however. The "I like it but I don't love it" and other BS.

Well, good thing it's not a dichotomy!

Which is arguably exactly why Linus should communicate more thoughtfully. While it might be okay for him and the culture around him, this style might NOT work for others. As such, it's better to default to a more constructive approach.

That's assuming he wants others.

It's possible this has been filtering exactly the right people he wants or needs for the job given its constraints and objectives.

This is again not a case of "some noob trying his best" but a "someone who should've know better". This is like when some new hire asks you something, and you try to slowly explain, and when Bob does it, and you go "Bob, you've ben working on this project for 6 years now, how the fuck do you not know what this thing here does?!"

on the contrary

its a good attempt at something, even if it didn't end up being a good idea

better to learn from mistakes than to not learn at all

It's such a good idea, it is already in the kernel. They literally reimplemented already existing shit with a more complex API. You can't make this up.

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