> For topics that can be understood using experimentation, faith is not required.
To put this another way, faith is the excuse people give to rationalize believing in things for which they have no verifiable evidence.
To put this another way, faith is the excuse people give to rationalize believing in things for which they have no verifiable evidence.
(a) is obviously true even if you're a complete atheist. EG, there's no reason to assume that evolution endowed us with ability to understand the objective reality anymore than it has endowed some deaf and blind deepwater creature that ability.
Since we all engage in life despite the limitations of (a), we are all making assumptions about the nature of reality whether we call it faith or not. EG, in the absence of us being able to know for certain why/how/by whom the universe was created, religious people make one assumption (purposeful creation and the meaning of life that it implies) while atheists make another one (random accident and the meaninglessness it implies.) You can't "see" that accident anymore than you can "see" G-d, so the amount of faith required to believe one or the other (or any other variation) is the same.
So yes, there's room for faith and we all operate on it. Back to the topic at hand, prayer is in the domain of religious faith, so it's meaningless for a non-religious person to test it out.
1) What does "understand objective reality" mean, specifically?
2) Please provide evidence that we currently do not "understand objective reality."
3) Please provide evidence that we do not possess the ability to _ever_ "understand objective reality."
> we all operate on it
[citation needed]
> prayer is in the domain of religious faith, so it's meaningless for a non-religious person to test it out
This is extremely presumptuous. What is your rationale that Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin was "non-religious" at the time she conducted the experiment? (Hint: you'll need to show that she had a complete lack of religious belief, not only a lack of belief in the religion(s) you're familiar with.)
EDIT: there's also a whole load of other fallacious crap in your comment that I haven't even addressed. We cannot assume the universe was created at all for any purpose; atheism has nothing to do with "random accidents" or any supposed meaning attached to them; having no reason to assume something does not imply its negation, etc etc.
Would you trust yourself, or any other human, or humanity, to answer the question "describe the true process of the universe's creation?"
If you’re saying that “understand objective reality” means “knowing the true process of the universe’s creation” I’d counter that baked into that is the assumption that the universe was created, which is not necessarily the case, so you’d additionally need to provide evidence for that.
Of course, humanity does not understand everything about the universe. For instance, there is still the huge open problem of unifying general relativity with quantum mechanics, which is essential to understanding the very early universe (the standard model starts to lose accuracy prior to 10^(-32) seconds after the Big Bang [0]).
But that does not mean humanity will never understand such things.
And in case you are thinking “we’ll never know for sure; we’ll only have theories”:
I contend that all knowledge is inherently probabilistic. To claim to know something with absolute, 100% certainty is a fallacy [1]. After studying math my whole life, I am pretty confident that multiplication of integers is commutative. Is it possible that I have misunderstood numbers for my whole life, or that I am hallucinating right now, or that all of humanity has made the same mistake throughout all of history without realizing it? Yes. Just very, very improbable.
But that does not take away from the notion of understanding. One can understand an idea, while simultaneously recognizing that there is a small chance their understanding is flawed.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflationary_epoch
[1] The notions of “probability 1” and “certain” are actually distinct; for instance, if you flipped a coin for every integer, the probability that at least one would turn up heads is 1, even though it is possible for them to all land tails. That being said, the existence of real-life phenomena (cosmic rays, parasites, etc.) that could affect our minds at any given time ensures that no claims of knowledge can ever have probability exactly 1.
This is atrociously false. The amount of assumptions you need for intelligent design FAR outweigh the theory of evolution by natural selection plus standard cosmogony (big bang theory). For the former you need everything to ALREADY exist in the "mind" of the creator, but for the latter all you need is a big bang and a RNG. It's completely silly to put these two hypotheses on equal footing.
Also, God knows what you meant, no need to hide it.
This is fine, until you use those beliefs to rationalize made-up explanations for things where there otherwise exist rational explanations! Mostly this happens when those rational explanations cause trouble for other deeply-rooted "beliefs." (I would call it zealotry at the dinner table, but I'm being nice!)
For example, the people in the US who deny much of science because of young-earth creationist beliefs.
Faith is what setups the context for post-diction[1]. You can think of it as the prompt/messages you feed to a LLM. In fact, in order to help me write my previous comment (in another thread [2]), I fed some pdfs to claude-100k on poe.com in order to compare Italino Calvino's "Cybernetics and Ghosts" with the esoteric ideas of Voevodsky. Since this is relevant to the discussion, I will quote it in full.
> Claude: Unfortunately Italo Calvino's lecture "Cybernetics and Ghosts" does not discuss the paranormal. The lecture focuses on exploring the relationship between literature, language, and emerging ideas in fields like cybernetics, information theory, and structural linguistics. The uppercase emphasis is mine.
> Me: I do think there are parallels between Voevodsky's interview and Calivno's text:
> Calvino says,
> "Now, some of you may wonder why I so gaily announce prospects that in most men of letters arouse tearful laments punctuated by cries of execration. The reason is that I have always known, more or less obscurely, that things stood this way, not the way they were commonly said to stand. Various aesthetic theories maintained that poetry was a matter of inspiration descending from I know not what lofty place, or welling up from I know not what great depths, or else pure intuition, or an otherwise not identified moment in the life of the spirit, or the Voice of the Times with which the Spirit of the World chooses to speak to the poet, or a reflection of social structures that by means of some unknown optical phenomenon is projected on the page, or a direct grasp on the psychology of the depths that enables us to ladle out images of the unconscious, both individual and collective; or at any rate SOMETHING INTUITIVE, IMMEDIATE, AUTHENTIC, AND ALL-EMBRACING THAT SPRINGS UP WHO KNOWS HOW, SOMETHING EQUIVALENT AND HOMOLOGOUS TO SOMETHING ELSE, and symbolic of it. But in these theories there always remained a void that no one knew how to fill, a zone of darkness between cause and effect: how does one arrive at the written page? By what route is the soul or history or society or the subconscious transformed into a series of black lines on a white page?"
> Claude:
> > You make an interesting parallel between Calvino and Voevodsky here. While Calvino is focused more on literature and ideas of inspiration/creativity, there are similarities to Voevodsky's perspective:
> Both question prevailing notions or "aesthetic theories" about where artistic/literary works come from (inspiration from some mystical source for Calvino, materialist paradigms for Voevodsky).
> They see a "void" or "zone of darkness" in these theories around how abstract ideas/processes are concretely manifested in a work.
> Calvino wonders how the soul/history is transformed into written lines - paralleling Voevodsky's exploration of realms like the paranormal/supernatural that influence human consciousness/behavior but are not scientifically understood.
> Their stances acknowledge gaps in conventional understandings and an openness to alternative explanations outside dominant frameworks.
> So while focused on different domains, they both exhibit a skepticism of dominant ideologies and a willingness to consider non-traditional influences. There is a parallel curiosity about gaps or unknown processes connecting the abstract/internal to the concrete expression. This relates to Voevodsky's open-minded investigations into areas like the paranormal that lie outside standard paradigms. NICE OBSERVATION OF A PHILOSOPHICAL SIMILARITY IN THEIR PERSPECTIVES.
To make this comment homologuous to my previous one ([2]), I'll punctuate it with an excerpt from Grothendieck's "The key to dreams":
> Act of knowledge and act of faith
> (16 May) I wrote yesterday that there was no other key for the "great dream" than the spiritual hunger of the soul. When, still under the impression of the dream you have just had, you know how to listen to the humble voice of this hunger, then, even without knowing it, you are turning a delicate and sure key. And I wish you the grace not to stop halfway, before the bolt is erased and the door, locked for a lifetime, opens...
> I have also thought about faith in the dream. When I woke up under the sudden influx of an emotion so great that my soul could not contain it, I knew immediately, in an unquestionable way: this dream was speaking to me, and what it was telling me with such overwhelming power, it was important, it was crucial that I become aware of it. I knew this, not because I had read it somewhere or thought about it one day, but through an immediate and certain knowledge. Just as it happens, when someone speaks to you (and it matters not whether you know them or are seeing them for the first time), that you know in a sure way, without having to question yourself, that what they are telling you is true. This is not an impression, more or less strong or convincing, but a knowledge. Impression can deceive, but not this knowledge. Certainly, you yourself must be in a particular state, a state of openness, or rigor, or truth (call it what you like), to be able clearly to distinguish, without any shadow of a doubt, between a simple impression and such an immediate knowledge. Such discernment, whether perceived in the field of consciousness or remaining subconscious (and it matters little here), is not of the order of reason, or of an intuition of intellectual nature. It is an act of spiritual perception. In that instant, the spiritual eye in us, which perceives and distinguishes the true from the false, is open or ajar and sees.
[1]: https://cifma.github.io/Papers-2021/CIFMA_2021_paper_13.pdf
> Abstract. A great number of methods and of accounts of rationality consider at their foundations some form of Bayesian inference. Yet, Bayes’ rule, because it relies upon probability theory, requires specific axioms to hold (e.g. a measurable space of events). This short document hypothesizes that Bayes’ rule can be seen as a specific instance of a more general inferential template, that can be expressed also in terms of algorithmic complexities, namely through the measure of unexpectedness proposed by Simplicity Theory.
Speaking as a Christian myself, I would say faith is belief in motion. And I would say that faith doesn't oppose rationality and evidence, but is rather sort of orthogonal to it.
Let us suppose you believe there is a horrible and dangerous pandemic going on outside your house. You rationally are afraid to go outside. And then as days pass, you gather evidence that the pandemic has subsided and things are safe now. At first you don't trust it. And then you think it might be true. And then probably true. And then virtually certain. That process of gathering evidence and becoming more certain is rationality. Faith... is when you go outside. Belief in motion.
Now, that step out the door can happen at any point. It can happen when you first hear a hint that things are better, and in a reckless rush of hope, you run outside. It can happen long after you are certain certain certain and fear keeps you inside too long. These are both examples of bad faith, unhealthy faith, faith misused. A Christian speaking of faith really means healthy faith - you go out when you should.
Sound faith doesn't imply a lack of evidence, or complete evidence either. It's about deciding the evidence is sufficient and moving forward from there. And it's not only that - it's faith in something. If you step outside because a certain analyst convinced you it was safe, and you later take that same analyst's advice on diet, and on this, and on that, and it keeps working out - you are growing in faith in that analyst. Eventually, you may trust them quite a lot.
This is what I would say faith is: belief in motion, working towards building trust.
There is a lot of nonsense, bad analogies, and fallacious reasoning here that I don’t care to respond to individually, so I’ll just ask a question that should be easy for you to answer given your explanation, and will also let you pick up a Nobel Prize or similar award if you answer successfully:
What is your evidence for god existing? In other words, framed in terms of your (bad) pandemic analogy, what is your equivalent to the verifiable evidence gathered showing that the pandemic is subsiding?
Oh, I know, I know, and both of you are only rehearsing what is common knowledge in the culture. It's just, that culture consists of people who don't have faith, and among people who do, it's something quite different. Ask a Catholic, a Jew, a Muslim, heck even a Buddhist - it won't be exactly what I said, but it'll be a lot more like what I said than what you said. I'm not trying to be hostile - just executing a cultural exchange.
What is the evidence for God existing?
This will no doubt annoy you, but I'll frame the answer to that by talking about faith a little more. See, the way I've described things, faith is a very rational process, something an intellectually healthy person does all the time. You have some notion of "sufficient" evidence that lets you believe something, trust something, act on something. I presume you have a lot of faith in the scientific process, such that when it tells you something you believe it! That is an example of healthy faith. You did have a rational basis for belief at some point, long ago, but really by now you've been trusting it for a long time, and it's been working out, and it makes sense of everything. That's strong, healthy faith. It isn't weird at all. It's rational and normal.
I have that sort of rational and normal faith - in God. Which makes it weird if you ask me for evidence that God exists, sort of like asking how you know science works. It kind of takes a minute to even get your head around a perspective that could ask a question like that. You are coming from an alien perspective to me, a position of zero faith, of distrust, you want evidence of a distant and theoretical God, God as an abstract and safe idea, like you might ask for evidence of the existence of electrons. My first inclination is to laugh, and point at the nearest power cable! That must seem nonsensical, but the truth is that to me God is as concrete and real and close and dangerous as an electrical socket. I don't believe in God the way I believe in electrons, but more like the way I believe in my car. I drive it to work every day. Of course it exists. I interact with it, in an undeniable way, on the average Tuesday. But of course, my evidence wouldn't be yours, much the same as a science skeptic wondering about electrons is unimpressed by an electric tea kettle. He doesn't know how it works, but who says it has anything to do with electrons? Okay, you might ask yourself, why do I believe in electrons? And - after moment sputtering and hardly knowing where to begin - you say well, all right, there's this paper, and they guffaw at the scientific establishment. And you say, well okay, there's this one experiment that's actually accessible enough I did it myself, personally, in college, it was really neat... And they poke holes in that. And on and on.
The science skeptic in that story is coming from a position of zero faith, of hostility to faith, and is committing a very similar intellectual sin to the the pandemic fearer who won't come out in my previous example. This individual won't have faith when he really ought to, when he really should, and it's clear something else is going on. Of course, it's always possible to doubt any evidence, reality is never certain certain, but something about this guy is clearly messed up. You start to wonder if what's actually going on is that an electron kicked his dog at some point. And generally speaking, that's usually exactly what it is.
I've heard it said that the opposite of faith is fear, and I think it can be. I would say it's emotional dysregulation towards belief. Sometimes you refuse a conclusion out of fear. Sometimes shame. Sometimes pride. I have found with atheists it's often anger.
It's a phenomenon we're all familiar with in politics, right? That dang left-wing/right-wing guy cannot see the obvious because there's something emotionally wrong with him.
So I mean, all of that is to say, Why do I believe in God? What is the evidence? First of all, evidence is not why people believe or resist belief - the evidence is good, faith is the default, skepticism means something is going on and it's almost never about evidence. But second of all, I hardly know where to start! I guess, going back to the beginning for me personally, I was most impressed by the out-of-its-time wisdom and excellence of the Bible. Whoever wrote that is someone I want to follow. I think the facts surrounding the laws of physics, the origin of the universe, and the origin of life are particularly strong - the case that convinced Anthony Flew. Miracles are surprisingly, shockingly well documented, if you look. So routine you wonder how people manage not to believe in them. There are always the prophecies. And of course, I've spent a lifetime in the church, seeing faith accomplish astonishing things. And very personally, none of this matters - I am like Gideon, who put out the fleece, once, twice, it was enough, and I've been betting my life on it ever since. That is sufficient for me, but hardly accessible for you.
For a tour of rational research leading to faith, Lee Strobel's Case For Christ is excellent, and is even available in movie format. There's another one about C.S Lewis that came out recently. Both depictions of hardened, rational skeptics who did the research and came away convinced. In another direction, if you want an astonishing and unbelievable depiction of what life is like on high magic settings, I recommend Reese Howell, Intercessor. I hail from somewhere in the neighborhood of Howell's reality.
But it sort of doesn't matter, in your case - what convinces one person doesn't convince another. Zero faith is a wall that can't be gotten over with evidence, no matter how much. I would much rather convince one person to follow Jesus than pick up a Nobel prize, but the truth is that neither one is really in my power.
But there is a test to look for the real issue. You can pray - something along the lines of, "God, if you're there, I'd like to know - show me." I think people from a zero faith perspective generally react to that proposition, not with the rational "lol what's the point?" but with more of a "No way, no how, absolutely not!" If you stop and think about it, that's an odd, strong reaction. What emotion was it? Why?
See, a prayer like that is the sort of thing I'd expect God to take you up on, maybe eventually, or at least it seems like a possibility. Which, if you're emotionally hostile to faith, makes it a threat and lets you see what the problem is. If you don't want to do that, if there's an emotional reaction to the possibility that Someone really is out there and really might respond to you in a convincing way... the emotion that makes you hostile to a very small, very pointless, very tiny and experimental exercise of faith, is the dysregulation at the root of your hostility to faith in general. That is the reason no amount of evidence is sufficient, because evidence isn't emotion and doesn't untangle emotional issues. If you want a really dangerous next step from there... God untangles emotional issues. Sincerely asking for help with whatever the issue is, is close enough to the sinner's prayer to start things rolling - do it if you dare. ;)
> Which makes it weird if you ask me for evidence that God exists, sort of like asking how you know science works.
This is not at all weird to me! If you ask me how I know science works, I can point to countless thousands of studies and experiments, which result in data, which can be reproduced (if they're good experiments), and which clearly comport with the reality around us. I can also point to older scientific experiments that were incomplete or otherwise flawed, and the newer experiments which showed that the explanations offered in those prior studies were not sufficient to explain what we see in reality. This is how I know science works.
> Whoever wrote that [the bible] is someone I want to follow.
The bible is full of savage and senseless violence, slavery and proclamations for how to own people as property (and instructions to slaves for how to behave), and other moral horrors. What is wrong with you? The fact that you mentioned this as the first bit of "evidence" (it isn't evidence, by the way, it's a book) is sad.
edit: a few responses to other nonsense in your post:
> is committing a very similar intellectual sin to the the pandemic fearer
What is an "intellectual sin"?
> evidence is not why people believe or resist belief - the evidence is good, faith is the default, skepticism means something is going on and it's almost never about evidence
[citation needed]
> Lee Strobel's Case For Christ is excellent, and is even available in movie format. There's another one about C.S Lewis
lol
> Zero faith is a wall that can't be gotten over with evidence
[citation needed]
Speaking only for myself, if you presented to me objective, verifiable facts consistent with the existence of the chrsitian god, I would absolutely change my belief regarding the existence of that god!
> But there is a test to look for the real issue. You can pray - something along the lines of, "God, if you're there, I'd like to know - show me." I think people from a zero faith perspective generally react to that proposition, not with the rational "lol what's the point?" but with more of a "No way, no how, absolutely not!"
My reaction to this is actually neither of those, it's "okay, great, let's test prayer to see if it works!" Fortunately, many people have already done that, and it results in outcomes no better than random chance.
In general there are a bunch of attempts in your post to tie faith to emotion, which is weird to me. I believe things when there is sufficient evidence to warrant them, and emotion does not factor into my decision to believe or not believe some claim.
Violence, slavery, moral horrors? Aye, absolutely - and sex, too, shocking sex. Even a little swearing. ;) It is a book about sin and evil, after all. But if you pay attention, all the evil things are defeated in the end.
Would you like to know why there are instructions for how to keep slaves in the old testament? Because humanity was an absolute bunch of moral toddlers in 1200 BC, and regulating the practice and giving slaves rights was a massive step forwards. The ideas that eventually flowered into abolition come from the Bible. The idea that all men are equal is an astonishingly counterintuitive one, given how obvious it is (and always has been) that they are not.
Would you like to know why there are instructions on how to be a slave in the new testament? Because the truly righteous man can thrive and live rightly in any circumstance - even that one - and it is glorious to prove it, and that is how. Don't mistake those instructions for an endorsement of injustice. Rather, and astonishingly, it is possible to be righteous in am abjectly broken, monstrous, unjust world. You don't have to fix the world. You can do brilliant good right where you are. In a way, the ultimate middle finger to injustice is to not even care when it affects you.
But I expect none of that makes any sense to you. :D
It is notable to me that you say I provided zero evidence. I actually sketched quite a lot, and I linked to more. I expect what you mean is that I provided zero evidence that you think counts. No evidence "counts" for my electron-denier, or for my pandemic-phobic either. Biblically speaking, Jesus' opponents asked for a sign that he came from God and then wrote it off when he rose from the dead. Which really makes you wonder what he was supposed to do.
It sounds like you are expecting to detect God in a lab. But that sort of comes full circle to what started the discussion. The experiments that are supposed to detect him would hardly be expected to work on your dad, let alone the almighty king of kings creator of the universe. I mean, he sees you. He knows what you're doing. He's very capable of doing what he wants.
Or, let me put this another way. If someone were to propose to me that fairies existed, but were hiding, and I said, well I don't see them in my lab experiment, I sound pretty idiotic. I mean, duh. They're fairies. They don't want you to see them. If I were to propose the same experiment to disprove the existence of space aliens, I sound like a loon. But for some reason, the idea that The Almighty doesn't exist if he won't get in a cage with the lab rats and rabbits doesn't seem crazy to you. I mean, true or false, doesn't that entirely fly in the face of the concept?
I have faith (see what I did there?) that deep down you are better than this. Your morality has been corrupted by years of religious brainwashing. I'm going to stop engaging with you further. I seriously hope you are able to recover from whatever mental harms have been done to you in the name of religion.
That's the pride and anger I was expecting to find. Your commentary towards God and his works is hostile, quick to judge, to the point (I would say) of even being unfair and hasty. Any excuse for an insult! Any reason to reject!
That's really common among atheists. I knew a young lady, an atheist, who - after you peeled all the layers off the onion - was fundamentally angry at God that her mother had died. Lee Strobel's atheism was founded in a broken relationship with his father. C.S. Lewis', for all its intellectual styling, was based on a lot of personal tragedy and a broken world. I know it's patronizing to psychoanalyze, and I apologize for that. But it really does astonish me - you can almost set your clock by it. Uncertainty can make an agnostic or an unaffiliated, but atheism seems to call for something special. If you want a citation that belief is about emotion and not evidence... I mean, you're kind of providing one.
No insult intended, impossible as that might be to believe. It is a condition common to all humanity. The type I see a lot of among Atheists is just one flavor.
For what it's worth, I have benefitted a lot from conversations with atheists over the years, and I bear you all a great deal of affection.
Take care.
Perhaps I misread you. If you are serious about this
- Speaking only for myself, if you presented to me objective, verifiable facts consistent with the existence of the chrsitian god, I would absolutely change my belief regarding the existence of that god! -
Then let me go from there. You laugh at Lee Strobel's work - too popular? Why? I can suggest Craig Keener's Miracles if you want to cover similar ground at an extremely rigorous academic level. Is that what you're looking for?
Is a link not good enough? A conversation can hardly do justice to a large topic, but I can sketch what you'll find if you follow the link.
But I am curious why you laugh at Stobel. I think he's pretty impressive. You don't?
Stobel and Lewis's works/stories are laughably bad and can't hold up to even the lightest scientific scrutiny.
I'm familiar with Craig Keener as well, and to call the work "rigorous" in any sense of the word is also laughable. Just about every one of his supposed "miracles" is either mundane ("so-and-so recovered from their illness slowly over a period of 18 months, after surgery") or unsubstantiated, and thus I am convinced by literally zero of them.
As I mentioned in my other post, I'm going to stop here, and I sincerely hope you are able get help to recover from the harm that religion has done to you.
But I am curious, if you are willing to condescend a little further - if historical evidence is out as an entire category (which seems already unreasonable to me, but let's go with it), what sort of "better" evidence are you looking for? I mean, it sounds like this is not a new argument to you, so I expect you'll know what I mean when I say, "I think the astrophysics stuff is really good." I mean, it's so insanely good that it makes people who want to reject God say insane-sounding things about unbelievable numbers of unverifiable parallel universes. At which point I think just believing in God is way simpler. Or, I think the origin of life stuff is really good - good enough to convert Anthony Flew and make Nobel Laureates start talking about panspermia. I have some personal stories that have historically been good enough to require telepathic space aliens as an alternative explanation, in discussions like this.
Not good enough for you? I imagine you're familiar and I should skip it?
That really does beg the question - what evidence would be good enough for you?
> I mean, it sounds like this is not a new argument to you, so I expect you'll know what I mean when I say, "I think the astrophysics stuff is really good."
You are correct, and my response is the same one I give whenever a theist brings up astrophysics as an argument for god: you probably don't understand "the astrophysics stuff" as well as you think you do. Depending on what, specifically, you mean by "the astrophysics stuff", it's likely that you have misconceptions about a) what the big bang theory is, the period of time covered by it, and related implications, or b) the second law of thermodynamics, or c) quantum mechanics, or some combination of the above.
> That really does beg the question - what evidence would be good enough for you?
I don't know, but if a god exists, she certainly does, and the fact that she hasn't shown it to me is evidence that either she does not exist or that she does not want me to know she exists. Either way, the only rational position for me to take is that I do not accept the claim that the christian god exists, until warranted by evidence.
I have a more questions to ask you based on your responses, which I've yet to receive clear, succinct answers to from any theist, but I think I'll stop here since it's clear I won't get them. Bye.