France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations
bbc.com
bbc.com
For what it’s worth I have made a good faith attempt to answer this for myself and quickly got bogged down in information about the Ottoman Empire, etc etc which I can’t imagine is a real justification today.
Both groups have, from their own perspective, a valid and exclusive claim to the land there. If not prevented from doing so, palestinians would certainly reclaim the homes and farms of their grandparents. Israel has the political, economic, and military power to prevent this, and so they do.
As a result many fled. Many stayed and are a part of Israel to this day, they vote and have representatives in parliament, supreme court etc.
The Gaza strip and occupied territories were held by Egypt and Jordan. They were occupied in the 6 day war (1967) but Israel never annexed them. Some of the residence there are indeed refugees who prior to the formation of Israel, lived in a different region.
It's also not true that it's not about religion. This is 100% about religion. Jewish settlers are entirely motivated by religion. Hamas is an extremist religious group who believes in holy war and murder of its own people. While Israel is technically a secular country, the religious forces are strong and force us into situations like this.
"The Jewish State allocated to the Jews, who constituted a third of the population and owned about 7% of the land, was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_...)
However they want to do it, rolling into a music festival and shooting everyone really doesn't sound like the right way to fight injustice (perceived or real).
This is a really nasty way to dismiss it imo. It explains nothing but just assumes the conflict is inevitable. What, is the land cursed? Are they bloodthirsty barbarians who can't do anything else?
No, there are specific grievances in the recent past and ongoing. This is not some mythical blood feud with its origins lost in history. Israel as a modern nation-state did an ethnic cleansing to get itself started a few decades ago. People are mad about that, and it's in living memory you don't need to reach back to the obscure 3000-year-old whatever.
War erupted which Israel won and hence their claim to the land. They did not ethnically cleanse anyone, in many cases they even bought the land, which I have never seen in a similar conflict. Usually it is just taken.
If we don't agree that it did then we literally cannot have a conversation across this boundary on this subject. I also don't see how you can adequately explain the current situation in the region when you deny this part of its history but that's your problem I guess.
If you only hold discussions where one party must confess to ethnic cleansing, conflict is inevitable.
> I stand by my statement that the accusation of ethnic cleansing is a hideous lie.
What does it mean "stand by" a statement that an assertion is a lie without attempting to refute the assertion? This is a nonsense action, it is nothing. I said I'm flexible about the vocabulary we use when we talk about what happened, so what happened? Why do so many palestinians live in gaza? How did they get there, under what conditions do they remain? Why aren't there more of them in other parts of israel?
I'm giving you an opportunity to describe it on your terms. So describe it.
I am not flexible about the vocabulary of ethnic cleansing for that matter. It has a very specific meaning
So, again, what happened? What is your description of the events that led to palestinians being so concentrated in gaza, and no longer living in the land they inhabited before.
Again I am giving you an opportunity to tell this story in the words you prefer. What, other than your cowardice, is preventing you from taking it?
It is their own making. It is safe to be a Palestinian in Israel, while you probably don't want to be a Jew in Gaza.
The united states must stay out. Controlling a city sized pile of collapsed buildings is a nightmarish situation that I do not wish on Israeli conscripts but extraordinarily so not on our own volunteers. The prospect of a second major invasion of the middle east should give pause even in the event that a terrorist strike in the United States occurs. Second to that I hope that they can return to a peace process before the scale of the atrocities stain their (Israeli) flag forever and ours by abetting. (Hamas' flag has guns on it, it can't get a lot worse. Wishing anything from their own leadership is hopeless even surrender.)
The civilians will be given guns and told their life is already over. We will be told Hamas is using child soldiers.
One of the most important parts of this conflict I think which most people here aren't talking about ia the geopolitics in the middle east. Most of this is still just a big old proxy war spear-headed by Iran. All the big terrorist groups and actors in the region wheather it be Gaza-based terror groups like Hamas or Lebanon's Hezbollah are funded and controlled by Iran.
There's a whole Wikipedia page on it, actually: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co...
Everyone's (except maybe Iran's) hope is that this conflict does not escalate any more.
I think it's more nuanced than just them trying to "prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border." In the region, water is scarce and important for both sides. Israel does allow "clean water" into the region, the complaint is that Israel government allows their own people take too much of it (from the perspective of Palestinian farmers). In the American west we have the exact same problem. Farmers higher upstream of the Colorado river want enough water for all their crops, but this would deprive the farmers further west from having enough. There are intense and heated (political) battles between the regions, with both regions feeling like they are getting shortchanged. With food, medicine etc, there's concern that those supplies are going to enemy combatants/terrorists (from the Israeli perspective).
This is one of those situations where there aren't really any clear/easy answers.
(These are honest questions, from someone with essentially no understanding of the current conflict but is trying desperately to make sense of it and is struggling with obviously biased reporting everywhere I look)
Now, you need to divide your concept of thr Palestinian people to (at least) 2 groups or factions, those that live in Gaza and those that live in the west bank. The major difference between these groups is that Israel is the sovereign over the West Bank but disengaged from Gaza about 18 years ago and since it's disengagement, terrorist groups like Hamas have taken control of the Gaza strip[1]. One could have a long conversation about human rights issues in the West Bank but what is happening in Gaza right now isn't oppression, it's a war. You could point out Israel's blockade of Gaza as a form of oppression but it's just a way for Israel to prevent Hamas from accumulating massive amounts of weapons from certain foreign actors[2]. The really terrible thing ia that Hamas's infrastructure is so deeply linked and interleaved with civilian life it's impossible to fight them effectively without hurting civilians (Israel has some measures to attempt to do that[3] but everything has it's limits). Hamas isn't interested in peace and will slaighter their way to victory whatever happens, they are actively hurting both Gaza and Israeli civilians as we recently observed with the cruel massacre. The world will be better without Hamas, it's heartbreaking it has to happen this way.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_G... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
A good bit of it is quite simply explained by "they want to do a genocide and this is an effective way of doing it."
The blind blame of Israel is just tiring. They still want all the land and drive out the Jews. That is no basis to found a prosperous nation.
No. There are things that you can reasonably expect to explain to an average five year old children. Humanitarian horror shows entangled into complex geo-political situations twisted with religious and ethnic matters is, to my mind, not one of them.
Sure one can always try to sketch some answers, but what is the purpose you are expecting to get out of it? If you want to build a solidly informed opinion, I’m afraid that there is no shortcut royal way.
But if this answer seems unsatisfying to you, maybe you can try https://eli5.gg/why%20Israel%20blockades%20%2F%20occupies%20...
The wall is a problem but it stopped this. Hamas did its best to destroy the peace that was forming. It found a collaborator in our PM (Netanyahu) who essentially supported them and elevated them so they will fight with the PLO.
The idea was that it would prevent the formation of a Palestinian state. That was always a stupid idea... Notice that this was never "official" policy, this is my interpretation based on his actions.
Right now the specific blockade is fulled by three things:
* Rage - this is something I feel personally as everyone lost someone they know there. It's a small country... When children are murdered it tends to bring out blind rage and indifference towards the other side.
* Fear - Israel survived in a very hostile environment thanks to its ability to instill fear in its enemies. This showed a weak underbelly and Israelis are rightly concerned that anything less than complete destruction of the enemy will trigger an all out war.
* Hostages - There are civilians and children held hostage. The minister responsible for infrastructure specifically said that electricity and water won't be restored until the hostages are returned.
I personally think the bombings are absolutely horrible. I know quite a few Palestinians and my heart goes out to them. There's a mob mentality on both sides and we both lack in leadership. It took 5 days for the MODERATE head of the PLO to issue a very weak condemnation of the attack. On our side Netanyahu is as corrupt as they come. A demagogue of the worst kind. He promised to "flatten Gaza" which is stupid. I don't want that.
The Hamas has been a cancer on the Palestinian people. It murdered more Palestinians than Israel ever did. They believe in holy war and that Palestinian dead will be rewarded in the afterlife. The death of a Palestinian child is just PR for these guys. They are as terrible as they come. Unfortunately, this cancer masticated through the population. I have no easy answered but one thing I think pretty much every Israeli agrees on, they MUST be destroyed completely. Not the Palestinian people, the Hamas. My main concern is the leadership vacuum. The PLO isn't great either and won't want to collaborate with Israel after everything it did... Going back to something resembling the Oslo accord will be hard on all fronts.
In fact, lets not blame the victims. Israel is defending themselves from aggressors and so I don't go far at all to consider their hasty response to the situation.
Next, "what palestinian territory?"
The british through blood, death and gore took that land. They formed Israel who has kept the land through blood, death and gore.
Did the palestianians take the land by force? Were they given land? Nope and Nope.
If there was a blockade - how so many weapons got in?
Guarding the borders is essential - we saw what they did in a few hours without them. Burning women alive. Decapitating babies. Raping teenagers then shooting them.
Without a guarded border - they'll do a second holocaust. That's not a speculation - that's a proven fact.
Tunnels.
"Decapitating babies."
This was fabricated.
Its been widely reported without evidence existing, which should have been a redflag for anyone with brain. It was just "trust me bro" by the prime minister.
Everybody has been slowly backtracking on it over the last 2 days. Including Israel itself:
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-b...
Israel was being asked about it for days by western media and refuses to provide anything.
OK.
It is a textbook example of a strawman. He is putting words in my mouth that I never said to debunk my post. That is exactly what strawman fallacy means. Lmao.
>If anything you seem to be conducting one by focusing on a single detail to discredit a narrative
Another strawman. I merely pointed out it was a hoax, as briefly and straightforwardly as possible. I didnt say anything about any "narrative" at all.
>The method of execution is really irrelevant here.
It is very relevant when it was explicitely stated. Falsehoods must be pointed out. Relentlessly.
This is irrelevant to the topic discussed which is "validity of the Israel's claim of decapitated babies". You entered this specific topic and keep derailing it with these claims that are unrelated to the original statement.
>You're grasping on literal straws.
Literal straws is what grows behind your house. Perhaps you meant figurative straws.
This is exactly my point. You're being purposely petty as if decapitation of a baby or mutilation with a knife are different. There are many lies perpetrated in the fog of war. But your choose to focus on the methodology of baby execution as the "hill to die on" in terms of "truth" is pretty f*ed up.
Stop defending people who murder babies.
Coward.
When the pro Palestinian rally is chanting gas the Jews, it might be pro hamas as well.
If we were spiritually sound we would be holding mass gatherings in remembrance of all victims and in support of all innocent survivors. But that does not draw enough attention for us to have heard about one if it took place.
Given they are chanting "Gas the Jews" and "Rape the Jews".
These are not protests - these are death marches.
When?
https://x.com/NationalIndNews/status/1712525993854833142?s=2...
But as it's often the case it's easier to sweep the problems under the rug.
There was a demonstration in my city as well tonight, I'm still in shock.
But it's obvious that Europe is filled with antisemitic immigrants if you don't even ask them their beliefs before allowing them to stay.
In most other countries, rights are constructed and granted at the pleasure of the government currently in power.
It's easy to overlook this philosophical difference as pedantic, but the ramifications are profound.
No your team hold rallies where people chants death to Arabs (even before the recent attacks)
i.e. Just this last march, in Jerusalem under the protection of Israeli soldiers thousands of Israelis chanted "Death to Arabs" [1]. The term "Death to Arabs" is very famous in rallies and context of Israeli extremists, where some of the current Israeli government are members of their groups (i.e [2]).
Will this change anything to you? I doubt but let's just say you are not being honest.
[1] https://www.politico.com/news/2022/05/29/israel-jerusalem-ma...
[2] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/extreme-right-m...
Also, your "my team" take is bordering on, if not racist. There is no "other team", they are diverse individuals who have opinions that differ from yours.
In an ideal world we would not have censorship, but people would be punished for death threats and violent action. However, most governments do not have the resources needed to enforce such punishment in the scale necessary (in these cases). When the need for that supercedes the capacity of the state to control it, the devil's bargain to censor speech instead.
The tactic of contacting our employers expecting them to fire us is a couple decades old at least. We are routinely called anti-semites for condemning treatment of palestinians.
And in the US currently the right is the one with the book-banning campaign? Again idk really how you can paint this as a surprising twist lol. We all saw it coming.
Not a mention of Hamas.
The demonstrations themselves are acceptable - but the linked death threats definitely aren't, and unfortunately the state apparatus is not set up to deal adequately with the latter.
I tend to think focusing on the threats themselves would be the better approach. Having trouble seeing how shutting down protest would help.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/10/pro-palest...
I don't know if you can conclusively prove they were directly linked, but we've seen how online people get radicalized by finding a community that espouses abhorrent ideas and then go on to commit crimes in service of that community. Real life gatherings and protests can have the same radicalizing effect in certain cases. That's not to say all of them do - the ideology behind the protest matters.
I agree that focusing on death threats would be a better approach - the problem is that it's very hard to find perpetrators and very easy to commit. Deterrence doesn't scale in that case.
It’s important to remember that after the Holocaust, European nations have a special responsibility to the Jewish people, and therefore they often err on the side of caution in preventing that people from being targets of potentially genocidal rhetoric.
Oh bloody fucking rubbish. French courts let a guy off on murdering a French Jew, in France, because he had smoked marijuana beforehand.
You may like out not the idea of not putting in prison people who were not save at the moment of the event, or the way the qualifications are made but it has nothing to do with Jews in the case you mention.
Really? Cause I remember post-9/11 it was a pretty mainstream opinion that America should go glass the middle east. And then, you know, America went and actually did start an awful, bloody war in the middle east that lasted for 20+ years. It was the anti-war people who were getting censored and accused of being terrorist sympathizers.
EDIT: Over again, some Americans seem to think that this is about the "freedom of speech", whereas, in reality, it is about the freedom of assembly. That said, the situation seems pretty dire, with organizations classified as terrorists on the streets.
Democracy is a durable form of government unless it's systemically broken.
If the plan of the people, once in power, is to prevent any challenges to their power, we should not run such experiments, and those people do not deserve free speech rights.
Free speech has that paradox unfortunately built into it (see Karl Popper's Paradox of Tolerance). Universal free speech is a pipe dream you wouldn't enjoy living under.
In sum, nothing to do with tfa.
It's like organizing a "pro-German but not pro-Nazi" march the day after Kristallnacht, with banners and chants glorifying the violence.
Nobody is fooled and every normal person with a shred of empathy is disgusted.
Watch a crowd cheer for a speaker who says that every Israeli man, woman and child is a valid military target.
https://twitter.com/Cooper4SAE/status/1711214442875093236
And of course people legitimately holding a vigil for peace and supporting the human rights of Palestinian civilians are not guilty of hate, so long as they don't justify or downplay the crimes of Hamas. But many of the rallies were absolutely something else that has no place in a free or decent society.
I've seen plenty of Palestinians interviewed on TV who said "I'm disgusted by the attacks of Hamas. All I want is peace for our people." Everyone can support a statement like that, and if the organizers of these rallies cared they could have thrown out anyone who didn't.
Yeah, and? I want these people to go mask-off. Silencing them just gives them plausible deniability, and that's what we can't afford to let them have if we really want to fight and defeat them politically. Did we do a better job fighting the American far-right before or after Charlottesville?
Supporting civilians in Gaza is not going “mask off”.
However, the leader of the “only democracy in the Middle East” calling gazans animals is.
Also, this dude is the minister of national security of Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir?wprov=sfti1
This is someone who was so racist, the IDF exempted him from military service.
This person is now leading the national security strategy of Israel.
The great thing about free speech is that if French demonstrators just support the humanitarian needs and basic rights and freedoms of Gazan civilians, then we'll see that when they demonstrate freely. And if they do like the demonstrators in Sydney and yell, "gas the Jews!", we'll see that too.
This is something that I want too, and I am surprised by the fact that many people would rather prefer not to know.
As if pushing Hamas sympathizers underground would "disappear" them.
Western Europe has a huge problem with Islamic radicalism and it should face this problem without any self-delusions.
This is why the ACLU stopped carrying water for facists: The "marketplace of ideas" has not seemed to work, and in general, globally, desire for authoritarianism is increasing as people feel squeezed and stressed and scared, basically the same as it always happens.
So we espoused this pro-speech plan, and then spent decades educating on the values of democracy and how obviously better it is than facism or other forms of authoritarianism, and then the second things get a little scary people turned to easy solutions of "Just hate that out group" like they always do.
It's like humans mostly work on emotions and aren't perfectly logical creatures or something, and addictive emotional stuff is just better at spreading than the nuance of reality.