New Entry-Level Lucid Air Pure RWD Starts at $78,675, Still with 410-Mile Range | Hacker News Reader

New Entry-Level Lucid Air Pure RWD Starts at $78,675, Still with 410-Mile Range

thedrive.com

29 pointsPaulHoule65 comments

Three points:

1. The Lucid Air is a pretty amazing car. Design and engineering are all top notch. Lucid had some early issues, primarily with software, when the Air was first released (wholly to be expected for a brand new car company), but those have largely been resolved. Check out the owner forums - Lucid owners generally love their car.

2. Folks are focusing on the "entry-level" wording. It's obviously not entry-level for the population at large, it just means it's entry level for Lucid. Just like Tesla started at the high end with the original roadster and Model S, Lucid is doing the same.

3. Lucid Air is a great car but no other car companies can come anywhere close to Tesla's supercharger network (at least in the US, not familiar with other countries). All the other charging networks are horrible in comparison. The biggest complaint you'll see about Lucid is folks bitching about Electrify America. Even if Lucid were to switch to the "North American Charging Standard" (i.e. Tesla's standard), Lucid has a high voltage system which means the existing superchargers would max out at something like 50 kW, which is way too slow for fast charging. May not matter much if you don't do a lot of road trips given Lucid's huge battery is more that sufficient for city/regional driving, but the charging network will continue to be every other EV company's achilles heel.

So while I won't quibble with the assertion that Tesla's network is better (it's most definitely larger), I think that the assertion that other networks (particularly EA since it's the next largest) are so bad is, I'm pretty sure, overblown. The bad experiences are real, but I think we get the same issue with many reviews where the people who have bad experiences are the only ones who say anything. I've done multiple 10+ hours road trips using the EA network and run into an issue exactly one time. Now, yes, one time is certainly less than ideal. But the solution was that I just went to a nearby charging station (non EA) and charged there.

Again, to be clear, being unable to charge once out of 50ish times is pretty bad relative to gas stations and probably Teslas network, and it's something that needs to get better, but I'm not sure I agree with characterizing it as horrible either. It caused me about 15 minutes delay. And of course, the fact that nearly every manufacturer is going to be supporting NACS soon renders these differences moot in the mid-term anyway. Which brings me to my second thing:

I'm curious about your assertion that a Lucid would cap out at 50kW at a Tesla supecharger. My understanding is that some Superchargers go up to 250, and that, other than the connector being a different shape, that Teslas network is already using the same charging specs as the other networks, which is part of why the migration to NACS seems to be happening so fast. My understanding is that once Tesla actually opens their network up, that it will basically work identically to other chargers with just the addition of basically a plug adapter. I believe it's even already using the same communication protocol.

Am I misunderstanding something, or why should the Lucid be capped at such a slow charging rate?

My understanding of the DC fast charging is it bypasses the car's internal battery charging circuitry for the AC/DC conversion so if the battery is higher voltage than the DC fast charger is built for it won't be able to charge the battery.

Its not quite that simple, as the voltage supplied by Tesla superchargers is quite a bit lower than CCS. Tesla superchargers use a 400v system, and Lucid has an 800v architecture. I've read that Lucid is capped at a max of 50Kw when charging with a 400v system. See https://lucidowners.com/threads/tesla-charging-on-lucid.4369...

To oversimplify, P = V^2 / R. Lucid wants 924 volts, but when the charger only supplies 400 volts then it's less than 1/4 of the power.

Electricy America issues aren't overblown.

I'm in Seattle. Almost every other time I've fast charged, there has been an issue, either failing to start, failing after starting (I have at least 20 charging sessions billed at $0.00 or under $1 due to these partial failures). I'd say 80% of the time there is at least 1 station out of service.

Like I said, I completely believe you. But it's also not universal. I've driven from Portland to Central CA multiple times, and had nearly none of the issues you describe.

Given a “50 mph average” for road trips (with stops, eating, etc) this thing can apparently do about eight hours on the road, or a decent 10 hour day counting stops, more if you can get a bit of charge at the longer stops.

If you can charge at the hotel you can probably pretty reliably roadtrip in this.

That extra range would have been nice for me a year and a half ago. I drove a Model 3 Perf cross country in the winter while solo, I found it welcome and even nice to take little charge/pee/stretch/food breaks. But sometimes I had to charge for longer while I was ready to get on with it, and range estimates would sometimes decline due to weather or road conditions, so I found myself occasionally having to add another 15 minute charge between my planned charges.

If I recall, 2/4 hotels I stayed at had some way for me to charge overnight, or otherwise were near enough to a supercharger that I could make a stop before turning in for the night.

Overall, I made something like 15-17 supercharger stops. I imagine the lucid would be more like 10.

> Lucid had some early issues, primarily with software, when the Air was first released (wholly to be expected for a brand new car company)

Wasn't the Air a $100k car when it was first released? I would wholly expect a luxury car at that price tag to, you know, not have such software gremlins.

I pretty strongly disagree, primarily because I think it's impossible. Literally every new complicated product, especially from a new car company, has glitches. And most "early adopters" I think understand that fact, even for very expensive purchases. The important thing is that those glitches are quickly addressed, and customer service has to be top notch. For Lucid I think both those things apply.

The market for high end electrics looks almost as crowded as the market for high-end gas cars. When do we some competition for affordable electrics that will really make a dent in air pollution?

A car that costs half as much and has half the range wouldn't be a bad place to start, though I'm afraid battery aging would be much more of a concern for 200-mile car than a 400-mile car.

Base Model 3 is under $35k and has well over 200 mile range.

Battery aging is real but minor in my experience.

However I don’t know how much this varies across car brands depending on the underlying technology they use —- which cells are used, and how the battery health is managed with software I would think has some variance.

battery aging really is not a big issue, especially with Tesla batteries. The LFP chemistry used in standard range models should last even longer.

Chart with degradation: https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batter...

Tesla temselves said they see 12% degradation after 200,000 miles. Plenty of ICE engines would struggle to reach that mileage.

https://electrek.co/2023/04/25/tesla-update-battery-degradat...

As someone with a 2019 Tesla Model 3 with over 200,000 miles, I can tell you that 12% figure appears off. I have around 30% range degradation, which is significant and severely limits my ability to travel around the country. In the winter, it cannot make it to most superchargers and requires intermediate level 2 chargers to make certain routes.

> When do we some competition for affordable electrics that will really make a dent in air pollution?

The Bolt is ~$27k, the Nissan Leaf is 28. The Hyundai Kona is $34k

Federal rebates push that down to around $20-21k for the Bolt/Leaf, and $26k for the Hyundai.

The average cost of a new car in the US is twice as much - $48k.

if you have a short commute a used Leaf with 70mi of range is around $6k-7k, i know a few that bought some with really degraded batteries for $4k but still get them on their 20mi round trip daily commute and its cheaper than gas.

i'm on year 7 with a used Leaf and still have 90% battery capacity at 78k miles. It paid for itself in gas savings alone in 2 years was spending $300/mo on Gas for commuting, no one knew what used electric cars were when i got it and there was no Model 3 for sale yet so $11k for the car.

All i want is a ability to replace the battery without a long wait and to up the range. I'd even spend $7k to do so.

i know a few that bought some with really degraded batteries for $4k but still get them on their 20mi round trip daily commute and its cheaper than gas.

After 12 years with our OG pre-ordered Leaf, we did exactly that: sold it for (IIRC) $3.5K to spouse's co-worker to drive the short drive to work. Battery was at 9 of 12 bars, but that's all the buyer needed.

All i want is an ability to replace the battery without a long wait and to up the range. I'd even spend $7k to do so.

Before they were even taking orders, Nissan did a dog-and-pony show for the Leaf, which we attended. The implication was that by the time the battery needed replacement, the prices will have dropped and batteries would be readily available. Sadly, neither of those things came to pass. Before we sold it, I was looking to replace the battery. Best I could tell, it would be neither easy nor reasonably-priced. Yes, you know a guy who does them; everybody "knows" a guy. And none of "the guys" are close to Seattle, can get it done in a week, or can even readily source the parts. Easier to go buy a new car.

Those prices aren't real. Most local dealers still have little inventory, and what they do have are higher trim models at significantly higher prices. Many also tack on additional dealer mark-ups and are unwilling to negotiate.

For those concerned about safety, neither the Bolt or Leaf are an IIHS Top Safety Pick.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks#award-winners

"affordable" is doing a LOT of work in that first sentence of the article.

I'm surprised they didn't mention the thousands in fed, state, and sometimes local rebates. You can knock a very big chunk of change off the sticker price if you live in an EV friendly location.

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/manufacturers-and-mod...

https://electrek.co/2023/06/30/ev-tax-credit-rebate-states-e...

A lot of people buying $78000 cars (even if $68000 with discounts) don’t qualify for the credits. I know I don’t.

IMHO, the fed restrictions are extremely fair. Anyone that is unable to meet these requirements should not get a $7500 discount.

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean...

The biggest requirement is that you have $7500 in taxes to offset with the credit, afaik it’s not refundable.

That was the old credit. The new credit is just a big rebate check. Many manufacturers just discount the price of the vehicle by this much and pocket the check. It will begin January 1st 2024.

Why not? The incentive is intended to increase EV adoption, not to help people buy cars generally. I don’t see how extending the incentive to all income levels would work against the goal.

> the thousands in fed, state, and sometimes local rebates

As recently as June, 85% of all EV buyers had a household income greater than $75k/year, with almost 40% making over $200k[0]. The median household income in the US is roughly $75k.

It seems wrong to me that policy is subsidizing the purchasing habits of the richer half of the population.

[0]: https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en/research-analysis/first...

>It seems wrong to me that policy is subsidizing the purchasing habits of the richer half of the population.

It isn't? There is no minimum income on the rebate. This is a red herring argument.

My question becomes at the end of the eventual 8 year loan, will Lucid still actually exist as a car company?

Is RWD better in snow/ice in electric cars? I'm from the Northeast US and RWD is pretty much extinct (in favor of AWD/4WD/FWD) with the exception being sports cars. Does the weight distribution eliminate the advantage of FWD?

I don’t have an answer for you in that, but I will say I’d much rather drive a RWD car with snow tires than a FWD/AWD car/truck with all season tires. Of course, the latter with snow tires is even better.

I live in Minnesota and I drive my Camaro all year. Whenever I borrow someone’s truck in the winter I’m always surprised at how awful the handling is because they think all-season tires combined with their truck is good. I’m not used to skidding when just trying to take a turn. I have literally plowed snow with the front of my car through conditions where trucks/SUVs were in the ditch at regular intervals.

Of course, they probably get a kick out of pulling me out of my own driveway when it’s super icy and my two wheels aren’t enough to get going. That problem is annoying. Not being able to stop or turn effectively is dangerous.

RWD with snow tires, the heavy weight of an EV battery and the instant computer traction control possible with electric motors is way better than FWD/AWD without any of those three.

Reference: friends with Model 3 RWD in Ottawa, Canada.

We have all FF cars on our farm in upstate NY, I have sometimes driven FR rentals in the winter that had traction control and did OK. But it is something to drive an FF car with Hakka R’s and be hooning it up on ice when the police are tiptoeing so carefully with their FR cars.

In my experience with RWD in a super light pick up truck not a heavy sedan, 200-400lbs of sand in the back is great but the snow tires made it feel amazing. The weight is to provide traction because the backend is so light(because you're supposed to haul things making it heavy again), I doubt that the back of this sedan will be significantly lighter. I'd worry about getting high centered on a compressed block of snow.

Not bad looking for an electric car. Meanwhile other companies are putting green accents, painted lightning bolts, fake grills, fake engine noise soundtracks, etc. how embarrassing.

I wish BEVs had a some sort of noisemaker. Not as loud or obnoxious as a car horn but loud enough to let pedestrians and cyclists know they are near. I've had more than a few Uber riders wait in front of our garage without realizing it's the exit and here I come sneaking up behind them like a 2-ton shark.

Grills are "fake" because people are used to seeing them on cars. They're also not all fake; EVs still need cooling for the drivetrain, and climate control (AC or heatpump) and some of them have disguised openings in part of the grill, or grill slats open on demand (BMW does this, I believe?)

I’m really curious why they went with a sedan first (minus the practicality of a hatchback as well). No one’s buying $75k+ sedans these days - at that range people are mostly buying luxury crossovers, SUVs, or trucks.

So is their strategy then to focus on just making the best (trackable) electric sedan, and not care about volume per se?

Considering a fully loaded car approaches 200k...They seem to have been focused on the hyperbole.

The world looked a bit different back when Lucid/the Air first started. After all, Model S was Tesla's first major car.

Lucid is releasing the Gravity soon, which is an SUV: https://lucidmotors.com/future-models/

"Entry" level?

TIL I can add "entry level cars" to the list of things I can no longer afford.

Just wait until you see the price of an entry level Bugatti or Rolls Royce

It’s obviously expensive, but it’s not a totally absurd price for an entry-level car from a luxury brand. I mean a boring BMW X5 SUV is $66k. A Lexus LS sedan is $77k.

The Lexus LS is their flagship model. The entry level model is the IS, starting at $41K.

As a general point of comparison, the average transaction price (including taxes and fees) for a new passenger vehicle is $48K.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/kbb-atp-july-2023...

I don't think "entry level" here implies the entry level model for the entire marque. That's not particularly useful when talking about Lucid Motors which only makes one car that happens to be an electric luxury executive car.

The comments on that website say the same thing

I never interpreted entry level as cheap for the industry, only cheaper within that line of models

anyone else?

The entry level for this group of goods is more expensive than you can afford, but it's not representative of the entry level of all cars, just Lucid's. You wouldn't say appetizers are something you can no longer afford just because there exists a restaurant that does not have any appetizers you can afford.

Yeah, most people in the world can't afford most of entry level things in life. Since for you it is just no longer, I surmise, so far it is pretty good life for you.

I love to see electric car options of all types, but would be more interested to see BYD cars in the US. https://www.byd.com/us/car/han

Hard pass. These will all get bricked if Taiwan gets hot.

From what I heard, Lucid built an amazing car but is way too costly to build. They likely sell at a loss, even if we don't factor in R&D cost. They goal is to live another day.

I'm pretty sure you're the only person expecting a startup luxury car company to break even in the first few years of it selling vehicles.

Pretty amazing, especially given the site you're on.

I don't expect them to break even. All I'm saying is that if the company is in a situation where the more car they sell, the more money they lose (because of manufacturing cost alone), and can't fix that soon, they are in trouble.

Personally I want LESS range offered in EVs. 200 should be fine for all my driving needs, 100 in worst case conditions, if it means the car is lighter (make it a sporty roadster, or a hot hatch), and eventual battery replacement is cheaper.

I'm the opposite, I could probably get away with like 50-100 mile battery, but want 200-500 for random things that I might need in a few years.

My current needs are not the absolute decision maker for a car due to how long I intend to own them.

Have you considered a Honda e?

Not available in my country (US)

Oh, didn't realise, sorry. They're lovely little cars.

How is this offering different from Tesla?

It's considerably better looking for a start.

Better quality all around.

80k is the new 35k - just wait until the inflation calculators catch up to reality.

Don’t new inflation numbers come out every month? How many months do you believe they are behind?

They are at 2020 1/2 numbers right now. Every product I purchase at my grocery store is 2x the price as it was in 2019.

The govt. stopped calling Safeway and asking for prices and started calling Grocery Outlet Bargain Market and asking for the price of food expiring yesterday.

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