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Comment by houseatrielah | Hacker News Reader

You say "society", but in practice its a group of unelected bureaucrats engaging in political censorship and regulatory capture.

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Who exactly is unelected?

European Commission fits here. Head of commission is approved by parliament as far I know, but commissars are not elected, just suggested by each state governments. Also, all EU laws can only be proposed by European Commission. Others can suggest them, but only they can bring them to parliament. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Are the EU state governments not elected? Last I checked they were.

Lots of bureaucratic and political positions are appointed by other elected representatives. We can't elect everybody, that would be too much. So is that really a problem here?

I am not that up to speed on the intricacies of EU governance at this level so I really don't know if this is a real problem or not.

This is more like the way we used to elect Senators in the US. The state legislatures used to select Senators until we amended the Constitution to require direct election by the people. Personally, I would prefer direct accountability of top government officials like the European Commission to the public.

Isn't this the same as like a secretary in the US, appointed by an elected government official?

I would not call the Secretary of the Treasury, or any cabinet head, an elected position in the US.

Would you call them part of a democratic government?

Sure. I'd also call the entire civil service part of the democratic government.

> European Commission fits here. Head of commission is approved by parliament as far I know, but commissars are not elected, just suggested by each state governments.

The commissioners are appointed by the EC president in consultation with the member governments, and then the commission as a whole needs to secure approval of parliament. This is similar to the process by which parliamentary governments usually form a cabinet, but with the European Council (representatives of all member-state governments) serving in the role of head of state.

One typically talks about the government in a parliamentary system as being elected, so...

The EU Parliament isn't really a parliament, so that argument doesn't work. If it was really a parliament the Commission would work for the MEPs and they'd be the ones deciding the law. In the EU it's the other way around.

The way they play games with words doesn't make it a democratic system, it is however a very effective tool for the EU to muddy the water and confuse people into thinking it has greater legitimacy than it really does.

So which part do you see as undemocratic? The parliament is directly elected by the EU populace. The council is the heads of state, which are elected by the respective national electorate. The commission is appointed by those same elected national governments.

Is that appointment process not democratic because its one layer of indirection? It's the same thing that happens for pretty much any minister/secretary in pretty much every democracy. Is the US government not a democratic system because the secretary of state is appointed? Is the UK not democratic because the Cabinet is appointed? Are there any democracies by that narrow definition?

See my other reply. You are confused about the nature of the EU and are repeating how the treaties say they are supposed to work, not what processes are actually followed.

So maybe the answer is that more government power should be closer to the people they affect?

Yes, I know the shit show that “states rights” were in the US

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