Third place
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and...
Unfortunately, Kevin Johnson pushed hard to maximize profits and cut costs to the direct detriment of the original "3rd place" vision. His focus was on pushing toward smaller to go / drive thru locations. The logic is pretty obvious. Smaller places that sell more units are more profitable. Large comfy coffee shops where people sit sipping 1 coffee for hours aren't.
Laxman Narasimhan took over this year and it is unclear how that will impact things, but I doubt "being the 3rd place" is even a goal of Starbucks anymore.
During the pandemic it was refurbished. All the tables were removed, and the floor size of the shop was halved (I guess they have a big stockroom area or something now?! I can’t imagine what it’s used for.)
So there are now no tables, and only a small public area at the front, which I’d say is mostly taken up by people who’ve ordered online silently coming in and standing until their drinks arrive on the counter to pick up.
Not only can’t I sit there (which if I’m honest I hardly ever did), but it’s a much more unpleasant place to be in now.
Then COVID hit and everyone was bafflingly weird about transmission via surfaces (that was the WHO's stubborn take on it then) and whoosh, all of it gone.
Actually, the "cafés" with the most people on laptops around me are Starbucks.
I know that establishments like this sometimes don't like people hanging around for too long without buying stuff, so it could be the reason that people would just get a coffee and stay all day. But this is just speculation on my part.
I think I've been to two (urban) Starbucks in my life that were both big enough to even have the space to sit there not directly in front of the counter and also not in main train station with dozens of people in it. (And the 2nd ones urban-ness can be debated, it was in Mexico).
At least to me, in Europe, Starbucks is the epitome of McDonalds-but-for-coffee. Not great, but reliable, for a quick stop and not to linger.
Are they? The Wikipedia article says "examples of third places include churches, cafes, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores"
Not sure I see any of these diminishing.
I'd rather say that people changed not the availability of public spaces. Everyone is more individualistic now, less social roles. See online dating. If I can sit at home and do "dating" with 0 effort then why should I go to the a cafe, club, gym etc? Otoh most people would say they explicitly don't want to get asked out randomly in a gym for example. So it's a self feeding loop.
Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty.
There was an announcement last week that the largest gym in town is closing. My gym costs $100/month and that's one of the cheaper ones.
Many of the bookstores in town are still open, but the used bookstores are mostly long gone. A lot of them are turning to be more like gift shops with books. The only used bookstore left is also a coffee shop (another favorite).
One of the bigger outside seating, family-friendly (cringe for me) bars with food trucks and all that has been run through the mud lately because of their ties with an anti-woman, anti-gay church that rented (well had been given for free) space for worship there. It all gets messy.
And let's not forget Covid shut most all this down for a time and people changed their daily living patterns.
Helps for any third space left that this is a university town where PHD graduates stay as well as a training ground for athletes of all types (though leaning more on endurance athletes).
So outdoor spaces with food trucks and drinks are becoming the new third places – which doesn't really suit every climate.
And as with most 'modern' reboots, it's worse than the thing it replaces. Outdoor seating is worse than indoor, plus food trucks price gouge like crazy because they can.
Everyone here owns $500 puffies so the drinks will flow (there's also an indoor space that's large). It's the anti-gay, anti-woman religion tie for me that makes me decide not to be a patron (not that I drink all that much...)
> Libraries have to constantly prove their relevancy. My town again had a huge city council fight to fund a new library district - it wasn't pretty.
This I worry is more funded by alt-right anti-intellecutalist culture warriors who are not happy that libraries include books on subjects they don't agree with.
This is worth fighting for. The internet is not a replacement for a library and more importantly librarians.
Not only that but since so much of society is inaccessible without the internet anymore, we need to have public spaces with internet access.
In my head we need to consider libraries on the same level of societal importance as police departments, firehalls, and hospitals. They all must be free and universally accessible or there's no point to the centuries of progress humanity has made. [0]
[0] obligatory edit - police departments ARE overfunded due to illogical unsubstantiated fear-mongering, and because they are forced to do work that they should not be responsible for, specifically challenges of mental health, drug addiction, and poverty. Which end up causing crime, and so the police get asked to fix the symptom rather than the root cause.
A physical library is a nice and comfy environment, usually in a good location as well. But it is not honest to try to argue for them in any way as better than online tools. If the purpose is finding books and information and obtaining it, comparing a physical library to online libraries is like saying it is better to eat using your feet instead of with utensils.
> If the purpose is finding books and information and obtaining it, comparing a physical library to online libraries is like saying it is better to eat using your feet instead of with utensils.
There's your issue! Libraries have much broader scope than just physical books. They offer free childcare, classes and meetups, digital lending (also free). If you're struggling to find something on the internet, an actual human is there to help! They can even offer suggestions on books or websites tailored specifically to you, and they won't collect and sell your personal info to do so!
The internet is great, I spend a lot of time here, but libraries are great too!
With that fact, I see it difficult to motivate why money should be wasted on physical libraries in any larger extent. You mention other services in the libraries that go strictly beyond the purpose of a library. That's nice when somebody else is forced to pay for it, but I fully understand why politicians want to cut that from a budget. If the government was giving free Harley Davidsson-rides to the public, I'm sure a ton of people would love it as much as many people love the libraries, but it isn't justifiable to spend tax payer money that way.
I also loved sitting in the library and reading a magazine while waiting for the bus, but the money spent on libraries would be much better spent giving every child a Kindle. That gives access to books to so many more people, who would frankly not have been able to have access to them otherwise.
> You mention other services in the libraries that go strictly beyond the purpose of a library.
Your purpose. Many others use them for different purposes. Growing up, mine had sports fields that were always in use and the best sledding area!
The American Library Association says each library decides it's own purpose.[0] Many, such as the city library near me, are choosing to become community centers attempting to provide a third place. I'd argue this has value the internet cannot replace.
[0] https://www.ala.org/tools/challengesupport/selectionpolicyto...
I think we're talking past each other a little. When I mentioned places without internet coverage, I mean rural places where you just can't get internet. If you live in the city, you can always get online if you really want it, even by borrowing from a friend. Compare that to places outside the big metropolitan cities, where information access was impossible before the internet, because they would at most have a tiny library with little to offer. The internet was an enormous revolution in rural communities, I lived to see it. That was in the 90s, and now the shadow libraries have made physical libraries obsolete.
Shadow libraries and eInk readers have done a thousand times more to give people access to books and information, than all physical libraries combined. That's why I don't think there's any future for physical libraries.
> Your purpose. Many others use them for different purposes.
I think if you ask anybody what a library is for, they'll say for reading and borrowing books. The money being plowed into libraries could be used for subsidizing e-readers and that would give better information access to millions of people, instead of a few thousand of people living in the right place to enjoy good physical libraries.
> The American Library Association says each library decides it's own purpose.
And the politicians deciding the budgets decide if they want to pay for that.
> Many, such as the city library near me, are choosing to become community centers attempting to provide a third place. I'd argue this has value the internet cannot replace.
Completely agree, but they shouldn't really be called libraries by that point.
It's more that people don't want to pay for libraries and they think libraries will breed a place for homeless people to exist. The town is extremely well educated. There are also many wealthy, entrenched people here that do not want to mingle with poor people. Lot of NiMBYing. The wealth of the town unfortunately does not bread empathy.
Then they complain about not knowing their community. Well, the church used to be the center of it. What's the center of it now? Something needs to be, and maybe it's something that can't be provided by government or business.
Businesses can't do it because they have a necessary profit motive - the bar doesn't especially care if you're buying drinks but they do care that they can't make rent and pay their bartenders and other staff.
We don't (or maybe we do) want to just hope a benevolent billionaire or collection of millionaires are going to swoop in and fund their places into existence. They're spending their money on palatial estates where you have to be in the know them to be invited, which makes it not a third place either.
No, third places need to be supported by the government - which churches and their tax breaks, and libraries with their funding, are. We have to accept a larger role of government than necessary evil, however, so I don't know if that's possible.
The problem with that is Americans aren't well socialized, so third places inevitably get the cops called and the places shut down. We all saw the Black neighbors getting the cops called on them by the scared White neighbors for the crime of having a BBQ and listening to music. The legal regime we live under is a huge part of it. Bars were barely a passable third space but when people don't drink anymore, there are no lounges to meet up and smoke pot in and just hang out at for hours.
It's the smartphone for most people
At the church I'm at now there's something happening at the church at least four days a week if not more often. The playground has kids playing just about every day it's open. There are small groups of people meeting up there constantly.
I would say that churches apply actually. And it’s not just the service itself, you have a lot of people hanging out after service in my experience. And then there is always Easter, Christmas, etc when there are snacks and everyone congregates in the basement.
Every week I - play board games at a brewery - climb at a local climbing gym - play soccer on a public field - (usually) watch sports at a local bar
There are plenty of coffee shops and parks near me where I see people meeting.
If there are no alternatives just talk to the major or so… I know two skateparks and a beachvolleball court currently beeing build just by locals in their freetime with the full support (also financially) of the villages major/council… if there’s no support… move :D (I already did this twice because I don’t like living in such communities)
For family reasons I've been inconveniently far from offices for a while, and have a really good employer that allowed WFH (long before covid), but I've gotten pretty convinced at least 2 days/week in-office is probably important for my mental health.
I'd encourage anyone to consider if full-time remote is working for you; maybe it is, and for me I think it did for a time, but most of us humans (even introverts) are social creatures, and unless you're good about finding a third place, or making friends elsewhere, work is still a really good place to do that.
How cool would it be to have a building with a kitchen and a sound system and huge screen and instruments and a gymnasium and occasional childcare? You could still have book clubs and speeches, but the book would not be a religious book, and the speeches could be about anything apolitical.
https://thecommon.place/p/thirdplacehomesteads
I'm definitely missing have a third place in my suburban life.
> churches, cafes, bars, clubs, public libraries, gyms, bookstores, makerspaces, stoops and parks
I would also mention that many planned or intentional communities explicitly include a third place -- a community building, clubhouse, country club, student union, retirement home lounges, etc.
You'll also find rec centers, YMCAs, JCCs, etc.
Don't give up on finding your "third place" just because you don't belong to a church or have a for-profit business in your area that wants you to hang out all day.
In terms of "virtual third places" I'd probably say that HN is that for me. :-) I'm guessing I wouldn't be alone in that regard...
Me, I like sitting in the cafe at the local Barnes & Noble. I get to enjoy coffee, books, wifi, and a pleasant ambiance. And for the most part I can regulate how much I socialize with the people around me. I say "for the most part" because I'm such a regular there that I've gotten to know a lot of the employees and other regular visitors and have formed friendships with a number of those people, to the point that sometimes when I go in there I have a lot of people coming over to chit-chat. Which is OK in that they're people I enjoy talking to, but sometimes if I'm really trying to get some specific task done, it can be a little bit frustrating and I struggle with how to disengage from them without seeming overly rude. Still, on balance, I get a lot out of hanging out there.
Currently, for me, it's been hiking trails, quiet cafes, and bookstores where I can be in public, but generally avoid large crowds and if there are interactions they're most likely one on one.
(crypto/metaverse nonsense)
https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/starbucks-creatin...
The heyday of the coffee house was the turn of the nineteenth century when writers like Peter Altenberg, Alfred Polgar, Egon Friedell, Karl Kraus, Hermann Broch and Friedrich Torberg made them their preferred place of work and pleasure. Many famous artists, scientists, and politicians of the period such as Arthur Schnitzler, Stefan Zweig, Egon Schiele, Gustav Klimt, Adolf Loos, Theodor Herzl, and Alfred Adler.[15] Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Leon Trotsky and Josip Broz Tito were all living in Vienna in 1913, and they were constant coffee house patrons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house
Ottoman era coffeehouses democratized education across all stratums of society. Because individuals from a variety of backgrounds gathered in these coffeehouses, illiterate or low literacy people could sit alongside educated individuals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_coffeehouse
I’m not sure such places could exist in a world with smartphones and to-go drinks.
hence why we've so much misinformed citizenry.
Thanks for the links