Hacker News Reader

Comment by tw04 | Hacker News Reader

I don't blame you for being skeptical, but it isn't just the oil and gas industry. The Japanese government went all-in on hydrogen.

https://thediplomat.com/2023/07/a-look-at-japans-latest-hydr...

View on HN

Japan is clinging to hydrogen like a drowning man to driftwood.

About 80% of Japan's energy is imported coal and natural gas. Their electric grid is a bonkers mix of 50Hz and 60Hz single-phase.

Hydrogen is the only viable solution for them and even that's not going too well despite lofty goals. They can't build the tech and infrastructure alone and the rest of the world just isn't as enthusiastic on H2.

The 50Hz and 60Hz is an accident of history and neatly splits the country in half. It's not a problem.

Their domestic voltage is also 100v. I've never thought about it before but it does seem like that might pose some challenges in electrifying their road transportation. 240v is considerably more useful when you are trying to suck down 7kw or more.

Now that you mention it, the electric connection in my home in Tokyo was much worse than the one I have in Calgary. They might have connections of 60 amps [1] or less where I lived (whereas my home in Calgary has a 100 amp connection which can be upgraded to 200 if I paid for it)

[1] Found this here (https://www4.tepco.co.jp/en/customer/guide/moving-e.html), I don't recall what exactly it was where I lived.

It is a problem, because there's limited capacity to move electricity between the systems. You can just plug them together, they have essentially two separate grids.

I think it would be a problem if they had ten tiny grids, but is two decently sized grids that are in roughly the same time zone (so peak solar doesn’t need to go from A to B) a big deal?

It was a huge problem when earthquake stopped many power plants in east area.

It is when a 1500MW nuclear power plant built in area A is essentially useless for anyone in area B.

Yes, you can transform from 50Hz to 60Hz, but the capacity is limited and can't be grown infinitely.

Sure, and it's by and large viewed as a complete failure[0]. Is your argument that we should repeat that failure?

[0] https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a4266501...

No? I'm not sure why you jumped to attack me when I was simply providing a counter-point to your claim that it's all "oil and gas". I drive an EV, I'm quite happy with it.

As to the article: they fail to mention that Japan hasn't even begun to throw in the towel. The newest CEO of Toyota is doubling down on hydrogen powered vehicles.

https://www.autonews.com/mobility-report/toyotas-bold-us-pla...

Also, it's not a complete failure according to the article he mentions "The 20-page report doesn’t argue for hydrogen’s complete removal from the energy mix. In fact, REI argues that hydrogen is vital for industries where decarbonization is particularly tricky (think: aviation, shipping, and steelmaking). However, to use hydrogen in place of electrification via other renewable sources is a mistake, REI says."

Japan has little traditional fossil fuels, but they were making a lot of noise about exploiting the methane hydrate in their seas:

> Methane hydrate is confirmed to exist abundantly in the sea near Japan and is expected to become one of the domestic energy resources of the future

https://www.japex.co.jp/en/technology/research/mh/

So in this case, they're really just a subset of the "oil and gass industry" boosting hydrogen vehicles.

It has been just a dream for a long time.

I think that may be due to pressure from their automotive industry, who for whatever reason are very resistant to making battery electric cars.

It's because batteries are expensive to produce, maintain, and are not as environmentally friendly as going from solar directly to hydrogen via electrolysis. There's more parity for existing fossil fuel engine use cases with hydrogen as well.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com