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Comment by GeekyBear | Hacker News Reader

Is this the same Apple whose new iPhone SOC has hardware ray tracing?

Apple has a gaming strategy. iPhone makes developers too much money to ignore, and since adopting in-house silicon across all product lines their handhelds, tablets, laptops and desktops all use the same APIs and CPU/GPU cores.

If you target iPhone, there is not much additional work to add a keyboard/mouse/gamepad UI to target the rest of their ecosystem.

We've started seeing Console games get ported to iPhone, which I don't think anyone was expecting a couple of years ago.

> Resident Evil Village on iOS Is Legit. I Forgot I Wasn't Playing on a Console

https://www.cnet.com/tech/gaming/resident-evil-village-on-io...

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It has ray tracing with touch screen controls for the masses to play a reskinned bejeweled with banner ads. It's not a real gaming platform. No keyboard and mouse support. No first party controller. They even took away 3d touch that would have helped a lot with the haptics of touch screen controls.

> It has ray tracing with touch screen controls

Again, Apple uses the same GPU cores across all it's hardware platforms. It will have hardware ray tracing on handhelds, tablets, laptops, desktops as well as on their upconing AR/VR platform as the SOCs are updated.

That might be useful if iPhones and iPads weren't gimped platforms.

There is no Steam (let alone any other game store) on iDevices. Just Apple's store.

As a consumer, I don't wanna pay for a game on Apple's store just so I can have a shitty iPhone experience. Especially when nearly every other game I have is on Steam and I can play on whatever device of mine I want.

Steam is just another DRM platform.

It isn't 'just another' DRM platform. It's in a league of its own with the efforts create a virtual OS-platform to run games indefinitely. That's neither technically nor functionally trivial.

> virtual OS-platform to run games indefinitely

They encourage windows games to bundle old and insecure dlls, which the games generally did anyway. On windows, they don't really do anything here, it's mostly just that windows provides quite a bit of backwards compatibility anyway.

On linux, they do a bit more. They ship a hacked up copy of various libraries from ubuntu 12.04, mostly without security patches, and have the games use those, calling it the "steam runtime" despite it really being "ancient ubuntu libraries". They reduce the security of your machine, and I would only play steam games on a burner machine you don't login to your bank accounts on.

I mean you're not wrong, but games need a stable set of libraries to target. This comment implies they haven't updated those in a decade, but they have releases based on Debian Buster and Bookworm https://gitlab.steamos.cloud/steamrt/steam-runtime-tools/-/b...

Those Wind envs are basically sandboxes no? Can anyone execute arbitrary code in them?

Id be more worried about game GUIs basically using a web browser.

The environment for both windows and linux provides unsandboxed acccess to the roaming/home folders, where game saves are typically stored. That's also where your browser's cookies to access your bank are stored.

Many of these games have such fragile netcode that they'll crash even if you don't fuzz them.

>Especially when nearly every other game I have is on Steam and I can play on whatever device of mine I want.

Except for Mac, apparently. Not much android support either.

I'd say we can't truly reach "whatever device I want" until we at least cover the 3 major desktop platforms, the 2 major mobile platforms, and the 3 major console platforms. Until then we are all making compromises when buying a game.

What I said was accurate. _I_ can play on whatever device _I_ want. :-)

I take your point. Even so, Steam is leagues ahead of everyone else in this regard. I have Steam games I bought 10 years ago that I can still play on my current desktop PC. That is absolutely not the case with consoles. It isn't even the case for mobile for me, since I switched from Android a few years back.

> No first party controller

Why does it matter if Apple makes their own controller? iOS/iPadOS supports other popular controllers and the Apple Store even sells multiple controllers (including the PS5 controller).

Adding built in support for a user's existing controllers, (XBox, PlayStation or Nintendo) to iOS devices and Macs is another one of those things that debunks the "Apple doesn't care about gaming" conspiracy theory.

How exactly does not caring (much) about gaming require a conspiracy? It should be the default state for the manufacturer of a computing platform whose main competitor has already cornered the gaming market.

Becsuse this is the gaming community and we can't speak subtly, apparently. There's definitely some spectrum between "does not support any games" and "full on dedicated gaming machine" and given the efforts of Google/Apple they are certainly somewhere in between.

It's proven that optional controller means there's nothing.

Apple once argued in court that they ought to be allowed to kick out all games built on Unreal engine by third party developers from their platform.

Imagine you have developed a game, it is selling well, and one day you find out that the game engine you are using has been banned for disobedience and Apple wants you to rewrite your entire game in a different engine.

Apple doesn’t just not care about games, they despise game developers with a burning passion.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/microsoft-backs-epic-...

It's all a bit moot. Gaming is an ecosystem, and MacOS is not a big part of it. Even if Apple supported all the things it needed to, developers still wouldn't build for it, it's too small a segment.

Apple also has no buy in for the segment of gaming people wish it supported. Where SteamOS and Windows both have first party AAA game development studios.

It's not moot; it's software! So many developers put their pearls before swine these days, when the technical side of things couldn't be more clear.

Apple wants the same level of control Microsoft had with DirectX. It is blatant, and they're fighting for it even harder than Microsoft did. There's nothing wrong with offering a high-level API, but there is a problem with avoiding industry standards for the sake of maximizing your market size.

Stuff like the Game Porting Toolkit demonstrates just how deeply behind Apple is. They're desperate to prove how capable Metal can be, without acknowledging why nobody targets it. It's not surprising that a DXVK port could also support Metal. It's just not what developers intend to support; not upstream, downstream or direct from Apple. That sort of pointless insistence is where I draw the line between "just business" and "being an anti-competitive asshole".

> a reskinned bejeweled with banner ads

I'm not sure this is a fair portrayal of gaming on iOS.

Now, a reskinned Bejeweled with in-game currency IAPs – that's more like it!

I mean, IOS supports K&M and oodles of Bluetooth controllers, including console ones. Dunno why you want Apple to sell you $150 iController anyway that locks you into their walled garden3.

I think we're well past the point where phones can't play "real games". If you don't want to do that in lieu of preserving battery, that's understandable. But at this point mobile has usurped what we used to called handheld gaming.

I'd hope by now we'd dig deeper and ask questions like "why isn't there a steam for IOS/android"? The answer is obvious for IOS and I hope future regulations help to allow alternative stores, but android seemed like a very obvious void for years.

I don't believe you can make money on F-droid, and Google is unlikely to tolerate you turning your Play Store app into a seondary app store (or if they did tolerate it, they might switch at any moment).

Well yea, F Droid is made for mostly open source games and apps. Huge deal breaker for games using proprietary engines (since the lions share is on Unity) and doesn't want to make it's assets open source.

This theoretical "steam of Android" would work similarly to how desktop steam works. Allows sale of proprietary premium games, Bans f2p games in the beginning (inevitably opening up once it's culture is established), does some QA to ensure certain features (e.g. Input, compatibility, no viruses, etc.), has discovery algorithms for consumers, user reviews, forums, etc. It could even allow adult games like Steam, but it may also ban those for a while to establish culture (the porn black hole is a real, scary phenomenon).

>Google is unlikely to tolerate you turning your Play Store app into a seondary app store (or if they did tolerate it, they might switch at any moment).

I think it'd be fine in the beginning if you banned f2p apps (which most of google's revenue comes from), but yes. I'd wonder how big it'd get before we get the next Apple v. Epic debacle over such matters.

Google is known to delist apps from the store.

If you, as Valve, launch Steam and take your own payments within Steam - which I suspect Google would quash instantly - you would build up an install base that "owns" value in your store (modulo weaselly subscriber agreements).

When Google does Google things and kills your popular product, perhaps citing that it is a competing app store, you now have millions of angry gamers. Maybe they cannot sue you, but they can certainly abandon your market on other platforms.

It's just not a good bet.

Sure, I have no doubt about that. But you wouldn't be on their app store to begin with. Or at least, not expect to be on the store for long (I don't think any of the alternative app stores I used were on the play store). That does lose you some marketing, but you're already swimming up a creek as is trying to sell premium games to begin with.

Now, can Google remove your apk regardless? I haven't heard of a case, but it's not impossible for Google to her in the way. The much less publicized lawsuit from Epic involved Google blocking Epic from negotiating with Fortnite pre-installs with OEMs, so Google won't just sit by and let their money walk (even if they were leaving it on the table to begin with). Not a bad bet if you're determined, but it's not easy street even if you find your audience.

> I think we're well past the point where phones can't play "real games". If you don't want to do that in lieu of preserving battery, that's understandable. But at this point mobile has usurped what we used to called handheld gaming.

Nah. Anyone gaming seriously will still take a Switch because even if their phone theoretically has more horsepower, in practice it's just not as good a gaming platform.

> I'd hope by now we'd dig deeper and ask questions like "why isn't there a steam for IOS/android"? The answer is obvious for IOS and I hope future regulations help to allow alternative stores, but android seemed like a very obvious void for years.

Amazon ran an alternative app store for a while, and were pushing the gaming angle on it pretty heavily, but they got rid of it. I don't know exactly why, but my naive explanation would be that no-one was spending money there because mobile games are bad and not worth paying for (or perhaps just that it's a lemon market and while there are good proper games on mobile it's impossible to distinguish them from the bad ones until you've bought it).

>Anyone gaming seriously will still take a Switch because even if their phone theoretically has more horsepower, in practice it's just not as good a gaming platform.

I love my switch, but it and the steam deck do highlight an aspect that died in Gen 8: "pocketable" handhelds are really no more. I can fit a vita in my pockets with little issue, and I have baggy enough jeans where I could even fit a GPD Win in if I really tried. But I'd say the latter is past practical pocketability. You can throw a switch in a bag but so can my laptop. I liked handhelds for the ability to simply grab and go.

Phones picked up that mantle for 6 years, since there was nothing else left. and I await the day that some portable PC strives to hit that Vita size. won't happen for years but probably by the end of the decade.

>pushing the gaming angle on it pretty heavily, but they got rid of it.

I think they pulled out the same time they gave up in the Kindle fire lines. Kindle was a store that penetrated the market but not Amazon. I even remeber the days where they had "free app of the day" a LA Epic Games Store.

It still technically exists but isn't really trying to compete as a store anymore. It has some "Amazon coin" deals for a few f2p games that let you get expensive whale packs for slightly less money. Probably due to some deal they made with certain game studios.

I too arbitrarily define very narrow parameters for broad terms based on my personal preferences.

Every single metric on the business side supports those “not real gamers” being worth far more than the self identified gaming enthusiasts that balk at paying more than $60 for a AAA title for 30 years straight

I have never seen anyone complain about $60 for an AAA game. Well unless it turned out bad, but the price is not the issue then.

right, they complain about anything greater in price, its heavily undervalued for the value it provides

>their ecosystem

and it truly is their ecosystem, because they refuse to support vulkan or OpenGL.

>which I don't think anyone was expecting a couple of years ago.

for sure, it's surprising to see a real AAA game get ported to phones instead of the usual cashgrab gacha/social garbage. on a technical level id be more impressed if it wasn't a game that already has to support consoles that came out in 2013.

> id be more impressed if it wasn't a game that already has to support consoles that came out in 2013

Neither the PS5 nor Resident Evil Village came out in 2013.

>Resident Evil Village on iOS is a remarkable sight to see. It's hard to tell any difference between playing the game on a console. From the accurate textures on the characters to the lighting and shadow effects, the game looked as good as it did as when I played it on the PlayStation 5 back in 2021.

https://www.cnet.com/tech/gaming/resident-evil-village-on-io...

>Neither the PS5 nor Resident Evil Village came out in 2013.

I don't understand why you're replying to me with irrelevant facts?

PlayStation 4 and Xbox One came out in 2013. Resident Evil Village came out on Playstation 4 and Xbox One on 2021. Unlike wine, video game consoles do not improve with age.

im not surprised that a layperson is unable to discern between the version of re8 he's playing now and the version of re8 he says he played two and a half years ago. It's also completely irrelevant to the fact that the most impressive game on iphone is a port of a game that also came out on PS4 and Xbox One.

Does Nintendo or PlayStation support Vulkan or OpenGL?

i wouldnt know, i don't have access to their SDKs.

consider this: Microsoft at the height of its monopoly in the 1990s could have ditched OpenGL support to lock developers into the DirectX ecosystem but they didn't.

No, but both of them have at least an order of magnitude (maybe two) more video game players on their flagship platforms (Switch and PS5) because it's solely for playing games, and the engines that are used have tooling to directly support the consoles.

Not so for macOS.

The VK_NN_vi_surface extension seems to imply that Nintendo does.

> Is this the same Apple whose new iPhone SOC has hardware ray tracing?

IMG has had raytracing in powervr for like a decade, and they just did another "most advanced ever!!!" thing a few years ago ( https://www.imaginationtech.com/news/imagination-launches-th... )

But it's mobile and so it's way too slow to be useful, so nobody cares. That's 99% likely to be the case with Apple's newest offering, just like it is with Qualcomm's and ARM's (that's right, literally every mobile GPU offers this now - Apple is one of the masses here)

Look at how hard it hits consoles and PCs, it's utterly pointless on a 6" display with a 5w SoC

That’s not the gaming department, that’s the gambling-but-with-extra-steps department.

The skinnerbox whaling department; now with built-in hardware support!

If you want a "gaming department" you should try to show demand for premium games when they come about. But we failed 12 years ago to do so, so I'm not surprised to see history repeat itself.

If the gaming support strategy is "we'll try once and completely give up if it isn't immediately a wild success", the chances to succeed are pretty small.

That's not how you get the Xbox, you'll barely get a Stadia shaped hole if you give it a fair shake.

It's more like they tried a few times and realized they have no way to sell a game given the absurd amounts of piracy. 2010 (aroind the time of Infinity Blade) to 2013 was the golden age of premium games. By 2015 almost every game pulled out or went the f2p route.

This wasn't some 2 year flash in the pan like Stadia, I could still name a dozen premium games from this time I greatly enjoyed. But if Zenonia 2 had 70% piracy rates and the ftp Zenonia 3 (or maybe 4) made more money in a day than Zenonia 1+2 combined, what you going to do?

(note these figures are made up, I don't know the Zenonia piracy rates nor sales. But 70% is the average Android game piracy rate in 2015).

> 2010 (aroind the time of Infinity Blade) to 2013 was the golden age of premium games. By 2015 almost every game pulled out or went the f2p route.

I remember this too.

We had a period with plenty of premium pay in advance games, then a period of games with ads that you could pay to remove, then the companies decided that the most reliable monetization strategy in the face of widespread theft was microtransactions.

> then the companies decided that the most reliable monetization strategy in the face of widespread theft was microtransactions.

A wise man once said that widespread software theft is a service problem. Legend has it that he still runs a successful game storefront to this day!

On the main point, yes, piracy on PC/mac was a huge issue.

But then, Windows PC were in the same boat. Looking from the sidelines, Windows gave publishers a lot more freedom in implementing anti-pirating (super invasive) features, and when push came to shove Microsoft stepped in to add OS supported anti-piracy features that the games could hook into (Microsoft using the same system for its own games).

I think we can at least blame Apple for doing nothing in a situation where a whole group of developpers are stuck with an issue that could be alleviated with the platform's help.

Irrelevant to the point, but Stadia was 3 year and half (nov 2019 start, to the death announcement on sept 2022, and actual shutdown on jan 2023). So basically the same span than the 2010 ~ 2013 miracle for Apple.

I forgot a lot about these early days (was absolutely not into PC gaming), for people in the same boat a nice refresher:

https://www.cultofmac.com/73192/why-2010-was-the-year-mac-ga...

The fun part being that 2010 span was triggered by Valve, so from beginning to end Apple just didn't do anything.

I would counter that an earlier step would be not to adopt that language in the first place. The options are not “Premium games” or “games”. They are “games” or “Microtransactional experiences”.

Brash, but like it or not there are enough "Microtransactional experiences" out there with fanbases that will react poorly to that language, that the PR hit isn't worth it. Genshin players probably overlap with the audience you want to target.

Also, in general im not a fan of "hate marketing" to begin with.

In case you mean the games on iPhone on the App Store, they generate revenue for Apple via in game transactions and not by game sales necessary. What people typically play on PCs are not the same games. Most of the games, as you can see with CS2, aren’t even available on iOS or macOS which is a problem. Outside of that I think you can run the games for iPhone on Mac as well but even then optimisation is necessary.

> they generate revenue for Apple via in game transactions

Once upon a time, there were many iOS games that you paid for up front with no micro-transactions at all, for instance, XCom was about $20 a decade ago.

I have a feeling the console game ports will be pay up front, just like they are on a console.

I have a feeling the "console game ports" will die out just as soon as the Alien: Isolation and Tomb Raider ports did.

I think Apple's angle on this either should be or already is synergies. Because of AI and their nascent push into AR/VR, it appears to me at least that promoting gaming is one worthwhile prong in the campaign.

To keep investment in the platform strong, they stand to benefit from stabilizing and recovering from some of their NIH brain damage.

Will the fixation on collecting their cut come to an end? Time will tell.

I'm sorry but mobile gaming is a whole different "gaming" world. It's often not the same playerbase.

I'm assuming they are not trying to appeal to your parents playing bejeweled when showcasing Resident Evil 8.

Will it work? No clue. Historically premium games had absurd piracy rates which is why most premium games pulled out and why F2P games with servers holding to value rose. But IOS always had lower piracy rates than android, so Apple has a better foothold for trying to re-appeal to console games studio than Google.

Apple's "gaming" strategy is a lot of microtransaction riddled games while they get 30% cut.

Everything that doesn't follow that pattern gets the boot.

iPhone? Who tf cares for iPhone gaming? Are you gonna play CS2 on an iPhone? And it's the same Apple that was barely mantaining OpenGL (an outdated version) and REFUSED to support Vulkan for their Metal Graphics API. If I remember correctly Valve helped or asked the creator of MoltenVK to open-source the project, so they could work on it as well. Yes, Apple didn't care about PC gaming AT ALL. Now they release a modified version of Wine and hope that everyone starts using it.

Apple cares games, in a Silicon Valley way, like Google. I feel they don't love games but accidentally become a big player.

more direct link to actual gameplay instead of a single screenshot on cnet: https://youtu.be/7LHJPSVR4Ek?t=135

> Is this the same Apple whose new iPhone SOC has hardware ray tracing?

it's the same apple who said "please bring games to our system" followed immediately by "opengl is going away. also, fuck you."

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