Before Skynet and The Matrix, there was Colossus: The Forbin Project
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I saw it this week and was baffled by the insight and the scale of it.
you really think so? it's true that the government in the film was authoritarian, but the plight of the workers seemed far more salient than the structure of power that was keeping them in their place.
The movie goes as far as showing that oppressed workers will lash out in a violent protest, but then it deflects this anger towards the mad scientist, and the conflict kind of fizzles out? And I think it ends with the owner of the factory promising not to oppress them as much, and the owner's privileged son promising to upkeep this, basically reinforcing the existing social order.
Doing anything else would stray dangerously towards socialism, though, so as a product of its time it's understandable.
Capital and labor are both dysfunctional in the movie, and this is portrayed in a typical socialist way: The upper classes are libertine, corrupt, inattentive, immoral. Labor is overworked, unrepresented, exploited.
However when labor tries to emancipate themselves from the oppressive and rigid order imposed, chaos ensues. They can't manage themselves correctly! So the ultimate solution is a synthesis. The classes stay in their positions (because this is the natural order) but conditions will be improved and so on
"natural" does NOT mean good or that it is worth preserving.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R.
Now in the plot "the robots revolt and cause the extinction of the human race".
Also there is his older brother, the Golem. He has his own movie from 1915.
The protagonist of Metropolis is in the title: Metropolis, the city, from the greek μητρόπολις, meter = mother, polis = city (or state).
The movie's Big Philosophical Statement is people should be nice to each other, but the visual effects were unmatched at the time and hold up well even now, assuming you find a good restoration. It's truly a marvel of its era, in every possible sense.
Stumbled across this movie as a youngster, very much thanks to a certain iconic scene:
“Burn’s wetware matches her software.”
Also Colossus was filmed at Berkeley hall of science where I learned to program computers.
I still don't understand how Roland Emmerich as "super Producer" after Stargate and Independence Day somehow managed to fail to get people into theater seats for 13th Floor. Someone at Sony screwed up that marketing. I don't even remember it playing in theaters, I found out about it on word of mouth in video rentals.
There were a lot of "are you living in a simulation?" film and television episodes that came out in 1998-2000. The Matrix was obviously the most successful, but Dark City (over a year earlier) had a similar theme. The X-Files episode "Field Trip" aired a few weeks after eXistenZ was in theatres, but a few weeks before The Thirteenth Floor was released. Etc.
I'm a fan of the genre, and I like all of the examples I've seen from that period (eXistenZ in particular), but I remember feeling at the time like it was just too much similar material in too short a period of time. I doubt Sony could have done anything to significantly change the box office numbers other than releasing it well before The Matrix.
They planned the whole idea out in a grassy area near the parking lot... why couldn't they just keep meeting out there to conspire?
I think it makes perfect sense. How else could he send/get information unless he had a plan to convince Colossus to not observe him.
My big issue with this whole thing is that they actually believed Colossus wouldn't listen in because it said so.
Yes, this was the other big plot hole.
Colossus: The Forbin Project (1970) [video] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35957944 - May 2023 (78 comments)
Demon Seed is also up there but in a different way.
I also made up a quip long ago from it: Don't let your AIs control nuclear weapons.
But then a sufficiently sophisticated AI could just impersonate the president and tell the meat jarheads to fire the weapons. What then?
Given PAL was allegedly all zeroes at one point, I assume the secret codes have at various times been 12345 and the birthday of the then-sitting president's current mistress; if so, it's only helping in principle.
0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_survivor Since this person will be offsite in a secure facility/bunker, they'll have the backup nuclear football with them.
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_of_Honor Which is how Jack Ryan gets "promoted" to President.
That is so 2019... to make a quip
We are already seeing what is tantamount to mind reading equipment
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-can-re-create-...
At this point I pretty much imagine that some time in the future that you can be hooked to medical equipment and someone/something will state the following to you
"Do not think of the nuclear weapon pass phrase"
But you can't not think of it. The phrase clicks in your head and the electrical signals are picked up and decoded by the bedside computer. You've betrayed mankind. The nuclear war of the AI has begun.
It wouldn't even have to click in your head if a brain scan could model your entire consciousness and then simulate every possible interrogation method until something works.
Even inputs that aren't currently possible for the body to report. Entire new levels of pain, intoxication, or anything.
1. don't give your robot a gun.
2. don't teach it how to put more bullets into the gun you just gave it.
3. don't teach it how to make bullets after teaching it how to reload the gun.
I don't know if you wanna entrust the safety of our country to some silicon diode.
A must watch for all geeks
I mean, really, it’s the epitome of a 70’s psychosexual drama, draped in a sci-fi setting.
I always like to imagine it’s a prequel to D.A.R.Y.L., which is to the 80s what Demon Seed is to the 70s.
It’s comedy gold. I remember when Leo Laporte and Patrick Norton tried to riff on this on TechTV, I think it was a one-off special and not part of The Screen Savers, but not sure on that. It was somehow also awful, but in a good way. It’s a hard watch but not at all possible to take seriously cinematically, but thematically it’s horrific. The delivery in the film reminds me of The Room in parts, it’s that bad. And watching Leo and Patrick try to make it through (live?) was a layer cake of disgust and schadenfreude.
I’m not sure that this was ever repeated on TechTV, but I think they reran the special that weekend. I watched it again and it was just as bad and yet good upon rewatch. The line I quoted above by an egg-covered AI was matched by the truly horrific anti-women ending, and that part definitely worked thematically, as we the audience were supposed to be horrified, but I did not expect it to be so truly vile and graphic, and that part really was tough to watch and wasn’t funny at all, which maybe was intentional juxtaposition, now that I think about it?
Gonna check out D.A.R.Y.L. which is new to me.
Check out Murdercycle, it somehow has the same vibe and I think is one of the only live action productions that David Hayter, English voice actor of Solid Snake of Metal Gear Solid starred in. It’s awful. You’ll love it maybe.
The first one, yes, but by "Colossus and the Crab" it's gone downhill.
*As in AI/some supercomp ruling everything(maybe in a hidden way)
The writing was real, not a prop, and staid there for a long time.
[1] https://cinesavant.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/5658a.jpg
Frederic Brown's "Answer" is from 1954 and maybe my favorite.
[0] https://calumchace.com/favourite-relevant-sf-short-story/
Like, fear of "the singularity" is narratively appealing maybe, but it's ignoring that in the real world problems like climate change or enshittification through [whatever buzzword tech] are actually the result of constantly passively choosing to stay on a destructive path.
Is there any sci-fi in which all incoming disasters are perfectly or mostly preventable but the real problem is that people in power just choose to ignore it for their own short-sighted gain? Aside from "Don't Look Up", I mean.
Enshittification happens because to a certain extent, the market demands that firms maximise returns. Companies that don't do this get weeded out.
Climate change is a challenging co-ordination problem because nobody wants to tank their economy more than they have to, there's no real enforcement for "cheats" and even agreeing on an accounting basis is politically fraught. Politicians that don't grant concessions to powerful existing vested interests are less electable.
AI safety is predictably going to be a secondary priority when competition gets tight.
They're closely associated with the econo-political concept of There Is No Alternative.
The choices which benefit them personallyare catastrophic for most of the population in the short term (see today's news about insulin prices for one tiny example) and will be catastrophic for absolutely everyone in the longer term.
Climate change is enshittification on a planetary scale.
If someone went around setting fire to rows of houses it wouldn't take long for them to be jailed.
For some reason when corporations do the same to the planet it's "economics" and "market forces", and we're supposed to just accept it.
Do they really get weeded out? Do you have any examples of companies that went bankrupt because they insisted to stay consumer friendly rather than maximize returns?
Many literary utopias have non-capitalist systems but usually some sort of circular sharing system (some are outright communist, but others more slow living).
Greed must always be checked by a society. But since Calvinism we've had a dual moral reasoning (was that Charles Taylor or Hegel, can't recall). Through Calvinism capitalism attained the moral good of earning more than you need, to deploy greed for God.
Humans are naturally greedy (natural egoism is not immoral just a biological drive) and our political system should balance that out somehow.
It would be ignorant to discard that it is exactly what has always happened throughout history.
Otherwise the myth of Daedalus and Icarus wouldn't be immortal.
> but the real problem is that people in power just choose to ignore it for their own short-sighted gain
you can find it in most of the so called "hard sci-fi".
The usual names: Asimov, Herbert, Clarke, Crichton etc
I wouldn't qualify "Don't look up" as sci-fi honestly, it's basically not-even-so-good comedy.
The movie only covers the first book of the original Colossus trilogy. The full theme of the books is a bit more complicated. We lose control of the machine, then gain it back only to be imperilled by an outside force, and finally make peace to work together with a machine struggling to understand its own existence just like us.
He often seems to get looked down on today for writing “cosy catastrophes” about plucky English survivors, but his books have a lot more going on than that.
It doesn't matter how many times we don't choose to do a thing that drives us extinct. We only have to do it once and it's game over.
It doesn't matter who does the thing that drives us extinct.
It doesn't matter why we did the thing that drive us extinct.
It is a game where you must have perfect defense.
We used to think that what killed the Neanderthals was us - smarter and more competitive. The author of Lord of the Flies even wrote a book on it.
So when people were thinking about what might happen when something smarter than us existed, they imagined competition and an existential threat.
Turns out that the Neanderthals and homo sapiens cohabitated for thousands of years, had cross cultural exchange, were buried together, had families together, and that what most likely killed the Neanderthals was an inability to adapt to climate change and pandemics (in fact, severe COVID illness today is correlated to Neanderthal genes).
And yet the anchoring bias remains, and it seems many are more frightened of what something smarter than us might mean for our continued existence than they seem to be about our own future ability to adapt to climate change and pandemics.
It'd be refreshing to see Sci Fi in the next few years finally shed the bad futurism around AI we've been carrying forward for decades.
would love to read more from your sources. i know that the theory of raw intellectual superiority has fallen out of favor and read some recent suggestions that Homo sapiens’ ability to coordinate and cooperate may have been a large factor in their success. that felt a bit hand-wavy and anachronistic to me but some of the findings also seemed worth exploring. i’m interested in the sources that identify information exchange and the genome (especially the parts where you mention that the specifically the Neanderthal genome was identified as susceptible to pandemics/severe Covid illness).
> It'd be refreshing to see Sci Fi in the next few years finally shed the bad futurism around AI we've been carrying forward for decades.
“the creator” almost tries to get there but still leans heavily on the traditional fear dynamics in order to advance much of the plot. just not sure we know how to weave a compelling story without reducing AI to soulless servants or existential threat.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2818-3
Climate change modeled as killer of Neanderthals:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180829115529.h...
Pandemic as killer:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/apr/10/neanderthals...
Cross cultural exchange:
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/oct/13/neanderthals...
A bit more on genetic mix with earlier hominids:
https://apnews.com/article/neanderthals-denisovans-ancient-h...
Hopefully a handful to whet your curiosity.
Of course, one of the problems with Star Wars is that the biologicals always seem to regard the droids as servants. Since droids harm biologicals all the time, there doesn’t seem to be a “three laws” regime in place. Why have the droids apparently never rebelled? Why was there no Butlerian Jihad?
I know Star Wars is science fantasy, not science fiction, and there are many places where my whole premise can (and probably does) break down. Nonetheless AI and humans seem to get along pretty well.
One of the things that emphasize the horror of enslaving all those droids would be the repair manual of the Millennium Falcon[1] with 3 separate droid brains imprisoned inside it. One of whom, L3-37 was a droid liberationist herself[2].
0 - https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Tales_of_the_Bounty_Hunters
1 - https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Millennium-Falcon-Workshop/...
However, there are plenty of systems where the a giant and real pubic good isn't fought for because the "good" is highly distributed and the "bad" which kills it has highly concentrated profits for a few folks.
These are systematic issues because the massive of folks who are passively harmed have a difficult or impossible time "choosing otherwise" or fighting back or whatever because there are som many divergetn bad actors that are operating on them.
The only way to avoid that is to make changes to the underlying system in which it is more difficult to concentrate the outcomes for a few people, but very few people I know are wanting to institute those kinds of changes, as they are correct in understanding that fact as broadly anti-capitalist.
That's neither here nor there- even if you can't accept that political stance, the trope of "incoming disasters [which] are perfectly or mostly preventable but the real problem is that people in power just choose to ignore it for their own short-sighted gain" is literally everywhere.
Dr. Stangelove can be understood this way, though for "MAD" rather than climate change. The "Aliens" films (especially the second one) can be understood that way. Hell, "Who Framed Rodger Rabbit" can be read that way, but for public transportation.
"I just wanna make this cool tech so I will ignore how it impacts other people because I see the short term benefits" is literally everywhere in this culture.
If someone could make $2MM releasing skynet and knew it would end up with the entire plots of the first three Terminator films occurring I have zero doubt someone would do it.
I don't think we, in general, are "ignorant of our own ability to maybe not do something?" I think most of us have a very realistic understanding of how the people who unleash their technology into our shared ecosystem have worked historically.
It seems that by the Act III mankind does indeed prefer the benevolent guidance of Colossus.
Like the aliens that arrive in "Childhood's End", I sort of look forward to our AI overlords. (Looks over at war in Israel.) We seem incapable of managing ourselves.