Ask HN: Whats the modern day equivalent of 80s computer for kids to explore? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Whats the modern day equivalent of 80s computer for kids to explore?

147 pointsboringg145 comments

I fondly remember setting up and playing video games and learning all the DOS commands. Navigating the dos prompts, directories etc. I ask only that it felt navigable and you needed to be able to do that to get to playing games. It felt like an unintended introduction to the architecture of the games. This included edit files etc (sometimes to my detriment).

Was thinking about getting a system to play games in the house but my feeling is that theres no technical lift for installing playing games. That playing the game was enough of an incentive to figure out the shell.

Curious if anyone has ideas. Thanks!

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A music synthesizer. It's a pathway to learning electronics, music, and the nature of sound. There are cheap kits, cheap synths, lots of kinds of synths, and there are much more complicated and expensive systems you can grow into. You can get software synths also, VCV Rack is a free though complex one:

https://vcvrack.com/

However I'd recommend an inexpensive hardware one with real knobs you can turn, like one of the Korg Volca series:

https://www.korg-volca.com/en/

Recording the sounds can lead into exploring all the concepts and gear involved in recording and mixing music. It's not mutually exclusive with doing other things also, you can play with both synths and computers and being involved with something artistic can add dimensions to and an escape from the nature of classwork/work.

Some other suggestions: gardening, high voltage electronics (with lots of supervision), electronics, photography, movie making, ham radio (gnu radio), show lighting systems (there's more than disco lights, robotics is involved), robotics, acoustic instruments (guitar, piano, flute, drums), sensors (you don't necessarily have to know electronics, get a data logger with built in sensors), weather monitoring/forecasting, hydraulic systems (with supervision), wood working, metal working, 3D printing, bird watching, painting, minibikes/small engines.

I highly recommend checking out this collective, they seem to be at the intersection of things you suggested

https://www.uva.co.uk/

I started to get into music synthesizers and actually got all the parts to create the Atari Punk Console [0]. An analog synth is super fascinating to me and being able to get all the parts needed to make a basic analog synth for under $20 was too enticing to pass up.

[0] https://sdiy.info/wiki/Atari_Punk_Console

I really like this suggestion, and the others listed. What they have in common is they're cultivating a creative and curious DIY attitude. If you can figure out how a small engine runs, or how sounds are created, or how to use woodworking tools, you build confidence that the same process of patient exploration can be applied to anything- including computers, code, and games!

There is an open source VCV rack fork called Cardinal I can recommend https://cardinal.kx.studio/

A Rasberry Pi. The number of things you can do with these cheap computers is astronomical. You can have a Debian Linux computer and then learn networking, programming, run your own small website. Then start on hardware. Connect up various hardware devices, maybe starting with just a fan. Turn on. Turn off. A second monitor, larger disks. Webrtc. On an on.

You never know what kinds of things kids will like. They may like building a website. Or getting the fan to turn. Or setting the prompt to "hey dude?".

My own experience is that kids like to do things - to see some result. They don't get much of that these days, so anything to encourage that vs being a clickbait consumer is good.

As for games, there were old Freddy Fish, Monkey Island games. Putt-putt does whatever was a favorite. I have not run retro-pi or whatever but I think many of those things are still available.

A pi by itself, eh I don't know.

A pi + a full kit like breadboard/cables, LCD/LED display panels, camera, microphone/speaker, air sensors, IR sensors, gyros, etc. Now that's got a chance.

It's certainly not going to be for all kids but for those with an inquisitive mind once you set them up and show how to display output in various ways they will start to see the potential. From there you can move onto basic rc hobbyist stuff which is more accessible than ever. Buy some cheap brushless motors, wheels and a frame online, make the pi follow you around by sound only.

The Raspberry Pi 400 is the closest thing you can get to, let's say, ZX Spectrum.

The closest thing is a ZX Spectrum Next, for the lucky ones that manage to own one.

Yeah, that's what I didn't mention it. I myself wanted one, but there is no way to buy it unless you are fine paying exorbitant prices when it comes for auction on ebay... Which goes against the goal of a low cost computer for learning.

I agree. PI by itself is boring. You plug it in and you have... a shitty desktop.

Need some sensors and associated electronics or just drop down a level to an arduino so theres no OS baggage and things are less magical.

Arduino has the very approachable scratch as a language + beginner friendly ide and a good community but I feel like a pi or similar board that you can drop ubuntu on and run some python scripts opens up more possibilities.

Then point them at chatgpt and see what happens haha.

But what does that give you that a regular desktop can't provide?

The only novelty of a PI or a audrino is the pins.

That's like saying the only novelty of trolley bags are the wheels.

That's. The. Point.

Instead of a closed down consumer hardware like a phone, tab, laptop, there's something that you can physically expand, read data from nature using it, and make changes directly in the physical world using code.

That's fantastic and exciting.

We are in agreement.

The pins are the point.

> there's something that you can physically expand, read data from nature using it, and make changes directly in the physical world using code.

You can't do this with _just_ a RPI though.

A RPI without any extra sensors or electronics is just a desktop.

By coincidence, the pins also _have_ a point :)

Agree - you need a book that shows you how to get started and do a bunch of fun projects - there are some available as Kindle unlimited books:

https://www.amazon.com/Fun-projects-Raspberry-Pi-everything-...

Why not go for esp8266 if you just want to use sensors? Pi is overkill

A Raspberry Pi or similar may be a choice only because it is cheap, but otherwise it does not provide any better learning experience than any Intel/AMD personal computer with Linux or FreeBSD.

In order to have a computer that can be completely understood, like one from 40 years ago, the best would be a development board for some Cortex-M microcontroller, e.g. one of the STM32 Discovery kits.

These are very cheap and have complete documentation, unlike a personal computer or a Raspberry Pi.

On such a development kit it is easy to learn anything that could be learned on an 80's computer.

There are 2 disadvantages when compared to the old computers, these development boards do not have manuals intended for newbies, so someone technically competent has to guide, at least in the beginning, whomever wants to experiment and learn with the kit, and secondly, the development kits are not stand-alone, you need a personal computer on which to compile the programs and load them on the kit.

Despite the 2 disadvantages, such a development kit with an ARM Cortex-M microcontroller is the best way to recreate the experience of an old computer.

Using the development kit for direct access to hardware can be combined with learning programming on the host computer, e.g. for GUI programs or games.

I've migrated a number of projects that didn't strictly require a Pi to ESP32/8266 and PandaBoard over the past few years. Depending on what you want to teach and how, there are lots of great SBCs to choose from.

I do like Pi. I might say that arduino or even a knockoff pi might be better fir the simple fact of availability. It's taking a long time (6mo) to get some models of Pi, and they are getting more expensive now.

Sorry for being a pessimist but it's easy for us old farts to have a limited perspective and think that if we just present a young person with a system similar to what we had they will figure it out.

The problem with that perspective is that we didn't have anything else. A c64 was literally all I had. It was either that, or go out and play in nature.

So we had a much greater incentive to figure things out.

Some will be literally driven to know everything about it though. But a smaller percentage than us.

I agree though that I learned programming mainly because it was so hard to find programs for my computer :)

Scratch is amazing. https://scratch.mit.edu/

And a slightly different direction than what you describe. Nowadays a complete "basic environment" on a computer (say a Raspberry Pi, sure why not, but perhaps simply a used laptop) feels too complicated. Far more complicated than DOS was.

Scratch is actually both interesting for kids and a seriously competent programming environment. They can explore; they can implement basic games; they can implement ambitious games or other directions like story telling. And possibly (but not all that easily) open for cooperation, cooperating on larger projects with others.

100% agree with this. I grew up on a TRS-80 and so much wanted to share my nostalgia, or a some modern form of it with my daughter. Turns out using Scratch gives her the same core excitement, empowerment and wonder I experienced typing out games in BASIC but in an environment that allows so much more with so much less toil. That feeling of being able to create things, to get a machine to do what you want to do is captured so well. To top it of there is a community of creators and people sharing tutorials. The source code to every project made and shared by others is just a click away... the learning opportunities are endless. I am so grateful for this platform!

I recently ran across Juno: New Origins [1] (formerly SimpleRockets 2), which is a game where you build your own rockets / cars / drones / etc. Not only is it a great introduction to basic physics and maths concepts, the game also has a visual programming language that is so similar to Scratch I initially thought it must be some kind of plugin for Scratch.

The beauty of this for novices is that it's a relatively gentle, and not overly open entry into the world of programming. Initially, you may use it to hard-code and automate some repetitive tasks, like setting camera and target settings on your rockets. Soon after, you might create a script to auto-launch a rocket, with various degrees of intelligence or hard-codedness. Later on, you might create auto-hover, auto-land and similar scripts, which also get you into the world of basic physics equations, possibly various coordinate systems, etc.

All the while, you're essentially having fun, and can always leave the programming to the side for a while if you're stumped. I think it's an ideal way for kids to learn a lot of basics.

[1] https://store.steampowered.com/app/870200/Juno_New_Origins/ (the Steam page seems to do a better job of explaining the game

Computers were the most technically advanced and innovative thing a kid would see in the 80s. All their friends at school would be talking about them in some form or another. There was no distractions with smartphones or the internet either. Not so much nowadays so those times are gone.

I wonder if there is an equivalent technology or 'activity' from the 80s as addictive and individual as social media.

As a GenZ human myself, I can't really imagine that much of a life without the Internet. In recent months, I've tried to adopt a less-internet lifestyle, such as reading, doing exercise, etcetera. But I still look back and think: if I hadn't had so much time to use a computer and the internet, I never would have discovered my passion (programming). I also get into a vicious cycle when learning new things: I don't commit to anything. (just Linux afaik) There's just so many technologies, stacks coming out, plenty of things, endless things to learn about that I never really wrap my head around what to really learn and dedicate to. But I guess that's more of a general opinion on learning things, not necessarily exclusive of recent technology.

I often look back at how fortunate I was to be a kid during those times. It was truly wondrous for me.

Edit: Just caught your username.

I don't really have a suggestion for a motivating goal (like a game), but my first thought is Linux not Windows or macOS. I 'cut my teeth' on Windows, but you just end up with pointless techniques/'skills' with no understanding like 'try rebooting', 'clear registry' etc. and simply setting an environment variable is made to seem like some mystifyingly advanced thing.

Second thought is Raspberry Pi - through a combination of cost & GPIO. You didn't mention hardware, but with 'computers' at the user-friendly stage they are today, that's probably the best way to recreate the feeling you want? Tinkering on the computer resulting in some real life visual/audible/etc. output. (Or RL sensors making something happen on the computer.)

Modern: Building games in Roblox?

You could get a Raspberry PI (or any computer with an emulator) or a real 80s computer. Set the PI up with whatever emulator. And maybe a book like this one

https://colorcomputerarchive.com/repo/Documents/Manuals/Hard...

Getting Started With Extended Color Basic.

Or set up a normal Linux without installing a GUI.

Or set up an emulator with DOS Box.

Or install nothing but Unity/Unreal Engine/Godot on a computer and disconnect it from the internet.

Don't let your kids get exploited by Roblox.

Why?! Most particularly with respect to Extended Color Basic. The horror! The horror!

Why would you cripple your child, when doing the real thing is so much easier?

Build a website. Write a game. Make your own really cool alarm clock. Make a demo. Write a voice-driven app. Steer them toward something that has relatively decent bumper-rails and ecosystems. Python. React (with typescript enabled). Or a good web framework for game development. Or, let them assemble a collection of emulator games. So many cool things they could be doing.

A Pi with no less than 8GB of RAM is a marvelous adventure. (4Gb isn't really enough to run VSCode).

I was answering the thrust of his question which seemed to be aiming for a restricted retro environment that would force some kind of technical problem solving skills without allowing kids to just run Steam or something.

That BASIC book is a really excellent intro to programming for a kid.

https://colorcomputerarchive.com/repo/Documents/Manuals/Hard...

Hmm good ideas in here. I have a pi at home - never considered it for that kind of option.

I think the Microbit is a nice starting point for kids 10-11.

You can code it with block programming, Python, or Javascript in the MS Makecode interface.

If you have two Microbits, they can talk to each other over the built in radio.

I have created my own remote control lego robot with two microbits, a breakout board, and two micro servos.

I think there are over 25 million units sold all over the world.

This. It's much more immediate and 'real' than anything with an operating system (like the Rpi), which are layers upon layers of abstractions.

Kano - https://kano.tech/us/original

Looks like their website has changed around. They used to have a kit that came with a raspberry pi (that you had to assemble yourself) and their own Linux-based OS that taught you about computers and the command line

https://github.com/KanoComputing/kano-desktop https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/kano-computer-kit-touch...

It's still there, based on Raspberry Pi 3. The newer models are Intel based w Windows 10s. I'd preorder a Pi 5 and do a project w the kid where you source the pi, case, screen, get an old laptop or two a old router and set up a network lab.

Their website redesign is so unintuitive.

Agreed. Not sure what the status of the company is either. Their GitHub repos have been quiet for years.

They ripped us off w a Kickstarter, three things first two came the supposed synth that they had Nile Rodgers pitch never shipped and they pivoted to their kid's software basically being a Windows app.

There was a rather speculative article that went into what mightve changed from 2022: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364631

Raspberry Pi 400 + PICO-8.

My 9 year old is in love with this combo. It’s really easy to learn based off YouTube tutorials, and you can instantly share your creations with friends who don’t need to install or have anything other than a browser to play (and even works on mobile browsers well)

There is no a modern day equivalent. Not because of availibility of hardware or software (both better hardware and better software are widely available at trivial costs nowadays), but because the world around us has changed. Specifically, the experience needs to compete against the limitless other distractions from the internet.

Here's a simple simulation of the 1980s experience: https://virtualconsoles.com/online-emulators/c64/ If your kid is like most kids, they might spend 20s on this before they get back to their Youtube/TikTok/Instagram/Roblox fix. Or maybe a few hours at best if there's a very enthusiastic adult sitting next to them explaining everything. But they'll probably be back at their regular internet distraction as soon as the adult is gone.

For a decent recreation of the 1980s experience, you'd need to shut the kids off from the internet for some extended period. But even that is only an approximation, if they have any contact with other kids.

Exactly, this means we are living in a very weird period in history. Right now there are people who know a lot about computers, for the sake of "they looked cool in the 80s/90s". People born in the 70s and 80s are ~5-15 years removed from pension or disappearing from the workforce. Already there are no 20 year old and few 30 year old geeks.

3% of us are disappearing every year. And that's just not going to stop.

>Already there are no 20 year old and few 30 year old geeks.

lol, lmao even.

This, unfortunately, is the truth.

But that begs the question: what are 11-year-old computer nerds doing now? Modding games? Building complicated machines in Minecraft?

There are lots of things to do. Lots of programming things mixed with other domains like music. Just one example: https://sonic-pi.net/tutorial.html There are tones of SBC, plus arduino. Calliope and others. Scratch for little kids, lego mindstorms. I know boys between 11 and 13 learning Python, programming some simple games. There are also lots of robots and HW. What there is not (or I do not know it) is something like the microcomputer of the 80s. That is a little computer which can do graphics, sound, little games, and even control peripherals with a very simple language. I would really have something like that.

Frankly what you're asking for in your last sentence is just a Pi

And with which SW? I mean, I can do “anything” with C++, but doing what I did in Basic in 100 lines would need 1000, plus downloading libraries and frameworks and reading several 500+ pages manuals. If your kid is not an english native speaker, you have yet another hurdle.

maybe check out PICO 8. It's basically a VM (self styled fantasy game console) that runs on a bunch of devices and an active community. https://www.lexaloffle.com/pico-8.php

A similar project that I'm eager to hack on (or maybe try my hand at implementing something similar in WASM) is the UXN platform. https://100r.co/site/uxn.html

And if we're already talking VM platforms to explore, there's no reason that someone who doesn't want to do software professionally can't get a lot of enjoyment from some basic syntax knowledge and making modifications to software they use every day (whether that's writing a userscript in your browser or exploring your favorite game via mods)

MicroPython. On any hardware it runs. RaPi ist not the worst choice.

Robotics is my guess

Depends on child's age, but here are some things from today that I would have probably found endlessly entertaining when I was a kid:

Flipper Zero

Raspberry PI

SDR

Not a computer, but still very relevant for inquisitive kids and adults:

Amateur radio (an oldie but a goodie)

Decent telescope

Decent microscope

My 15 year old son has been having a blast with the Flipper Zero

Most people are posting links to hardware, but in my mind, this is a software question. Maybe one of those BASIC interpreters with an integrated IDE, the way that QBASIC used to be on older Windows versions?

QB64 is the modern equivalent: https://qb64.com/

Your kids won't literally need to navigate the command line to launch the games. But I think that editing config files to "hack" the game is still on the table :-)

EDIT: also https://www.endbasic.dev/, which jmmv posted below.

Responding to my own comment: maybe it does have to be separate hardware. If your kid is programming on the same computer they use for Fortnight, then whenever they lose momentum and get discouraged, they're going to be tempted to switch over and play a nice shiny AAA game instead. Or hop on social media, etc. Modern computers just have too many distractions at hand.

Having a separate computer just for the lo-fi programming environment won't fully prevent that, but at least it's a minor roadblock.

I think it has to be a different HW. Iroamed a lot about it, and have your same conclusion. To your parent comment, yes. Is about SW. And the problem I see, ist that today we have super conputers with studio level audio, and cinema quality video. But programing anything other than a “hello world” or basic text application, is so difficult and complex, that no average kid will endeavor such a trip. Frameworks, Libraries… full of rabbit-holes that I do not dare to enter being a professional programmer. We need some simple language that allows to bild interesting things relatively easy… like endbasic in other comments.

How about these? [1] Build in the spirit of the 80s home computers and with options of 8/16/32 bit (6502 and 680x0) and an active community.

[1] https://c256foenix.com/

Jan Beta review of F256 Fenix: https://youtu.be/57FuA8YuXn0

Another similar computer (Z80), but cheaper: https://youtu.be/PRcipJ-k_aY

I tried to set up a Raspberry Pi and configured it to boot into a simple window manager with DosBox full screen by default. I taught my kids to launch games within that and they learned the very basics… but it didn’t stick: they haven’t really gained any interest in how to do other stuff in the shell.

Anyway: check (my own) https://www.endbasic.dev/ which I’ve written precisely for the situation you describe :) You would actually have to /write/ the games first though! There are some rudimentary ones in the gallery.

This is a good idea. What I think you need (based on my own experience) is a book with documentation and exercises, games and such. Also you need interfaces with video, sound, and some hardware.

I think the "competition" is much harder nowadays. When you have all the AAA games available, it's not that exciting to just get something moving on the screen.

Maybe something physical would be interesting? Like programming a led-strip (nowadays you have these where you can individually address the lights), robotic arm or something like that.

If kids are into certain games, maybe there's some opportunities to explore on the modding side. Like for the Euro Truck simulator you can bring your own graphics for the trucks. No idea how complicated it is to package those, but it would probably teach a ton of things.

I don’t think this experience is available any more.

The missing ingredient is not the technology, but the motivation/reward.

In the 80s/early 90s, fiddling with that system setup earned you an interactive audiovisual experience that you simply couldn’t get anywhere else, not even on TV.

Today, there is very little that kids haven’t already seen on YouTube, or that can’t be played at the click of a button.

It was an era of constraint that has now passed, and isn’t coming back.

Hacking drones is still on early days with lots of low hanging fruit if you have time and nothing else to think about. However, it is an order of magnitude more dangerous than PCs were back in the 80s and parents may resist the idea.

In the 80s playing with software was more relevant than with hardware. Nowadays I believe it’s the opposite, trades were abandoned and are an huge oportunity.

Self-hosting anything and everything (on one's LAN) is a domain with lots of "Wild West" still in it.

No two people will set it up quite the same.

This is true. But note that is the case for anything, not only learning about computers. Accepting this as the status quo means accepting our kids to be amoebas. But must not be the like that, youtube can also inspire to do things, like sport, or also learning about computers. I have good examples around me. Guidance is everything.

Raspberry Pi 400 perhaps?

https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/

Kind of reminds me of my old Acorn Electron.

Thats really interesting and it takes some of the config overhead out of the equation for younger kids but still keeps some of the technical.

I bought a Kano kit for my son (he was 9 or 10). I think they went under but it was a Pi 3 with a specific Linux based OS designed for learning.

It came in bits with very nice instructions for building it. Bright cables, easy Lego style diagrams. The keyboard is wireless with a built in track pad, and charges via a built in usb cable. All very neat and self contained.

We got to build a whole computer, plug it into the TV, and it behaves a bit like a console.

It has a mix of learn shell, basic programming and fun Linux games (including Minecraft). The whole OS includes a gamified points system too, to encourage more learning.

I think the OS is a free download, but you could easily get a Pi and some fun accessories and build something.

On my to-do list next is building a pi based motion sensor camera for the basement to see if we have mice. Part serious need, part fun game.

For a lot of things though he learns more left alone. Building iPad and iPhone games using some of the drag and drop gaming toolkit apps, for example. My parents had no idea what I did on the computer and couldn’t have helped. I taught myself. He likes that too

Scratch is a gentle introduction to programming, aimed mainly at young children. I taught it to a range of children and all of them were able to create a simple game in under an hour.

Add the makey makey and it is a lot of fun with Scratch.

Pico8 ? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37729402

I don't know if there's any abstraction as wonderful as the disk->file abstraction that has enabled most modern computing.

Perhaps though the current frontier is the software->application abstraction that can be explored through public git repositories and Github "Topics".

Of course the application for this set would mirror the popular brain drains, short-form content production, video game mods/cheats/piracy, deep fakes and pranks, etc.

Just as the OS and operation of a few commercial packages you had access to in the 80s seemed limitless, so is the landscape of FOSS packages.

Here: https://github.com/topics/gtav

I had this experience with Texas Instruments graphing calculators in the 00s. They have a language, TI-BASIC that was my first introduction to programming. You can even make small games with ASCII characters on the screen (ex: I made one where a “Y” you controlled with the arrow keys fell through “floors with holes” made of dashes and spaces). Obviously super helpful for science and math classes, which was the only way I used it at first. You can program with just the calculator itself; you don’t even need a computer. I think TI-83/TI-84 are still used in classrooms, which is what I used.

>They have a language, TI-BASIC that was my first introduction to programming. You can even make small games with ASCII characters on the screen (ex: I made one where a “Y” you controlled with the arrow keys fell through “floors with holes” made of dashes and spaces).

TI-tris?

Browser Developer Tools -- a javascript REPL and a familiar environment (any website)

Definitely. Javascript is absolutely the modern analogue of '80s BASIC. Comes built-in to the computer/browser with no need to install anything, interpreted language with no need for any kind of toolchain, emphasizes ease of use (even when that comes at a detriment to things that language purists like -- e.g., strong typing), has metric tons of example code to do all kinds of cool things...

Your childhood interest in 80s computing is like the golden era of MMOs. Now there are bigger and "greater" things and the entire thing just seems poor and pointless now. You can't go back and recreate it, because the context is now different. It would be pure re-enactment. Back then it was the best thing about, if you didn't have an arcade near you then it was probably even the most powerful videogames machine you had access to. Now, there is always the knowledge that you will never make something as cool as what the big companies can make.

I’m a Dad who grew up in the 80s and the problem is us, the parents. My parents didn’t push me to get into computing, I just found it fascinating. If we try to find things like gentle introductions, it’s likely to get more kids to a base level familiarity but all of the real learning was in reading a 256 page manual as an 8 year old so I could get StarCraft to work on my highly custom rig. Parents as the driving force simply won’t work. Ask your kids what they are interested in and let them struggle with the problem for hours (days even) and they’ll be better for it than anything you could possibly install or provide to them.

Could your parents navigate DOS? Mine sure couldn’t but it didn’t stop me from learning.

From my experience, the best approach is to get your children to try lots of different things and let them find their own interests. I tried lots of things with my son:

https://successfulsoftware.net/2014/01/31/fun-and-geeky-thin...

Some he really enjoyed. Other he lost interest in very quickly.

It can be frustrating when they quickly lose interest in some toy you have spent your hard earned cash on. But that is the way it goes. One of the things we tried was model rocketry (starting with a small Estes kit) and that was a big success. He has now won competitions, is level 1 certified and wants to study aerospace engineering at University.

I guess it is a bit like running a film studio - most of the films lose money, but the occasional blockbuster more than makes up for it.

This is a great answer. I think you already hint at this but I wanted to elaborate on it a bit: the big thing that our kids fall in love with will not necessarily be computing (at least not in the sense that we mean), and that's okay.

We grew up at various stages of a massive revolution—some are reminiscing for the 80s, I'm at the tail end reminiscing for the early web and then the Flash era. Computers were wonderful to me because I could, as a kid, produce results that looked and felt like they were in the same ballpark as what I saw professionals doing. It was the frontier, and I felt like I was helping to explore it.

In the last two decades computing has grown up, and having grown up it's no longer possible for children to participate in the frontier. From a young age they interact primarily with toys and tools that would be impossible for any one of us to make alone, much less for a child who's still learning. Sandboxes like Scratch are great, but an adventurous kid who wants to be at the frontier will very quickly recognize it as just that: a sandbox. It's not as compelling because it's artificial, created specifically for their education.

Instead, I expect that my children will find something else, a new frontier to push. My kids don't want toys curated by their parents, they want to explore the world and they want to contribute. They are going to find the fields that are still fresh, that still have mystery, that don't require years of education to get to the point where they can contribute meaningfully. And that's awesome! I'm excited to see what they find, and excited for them to show me along.

I am also a dad that grew up in the 80's and my thoughts on this issue is that back in those days there was a much smaller selection of things you could do with a computer, less stimuli and smaller need for instant gratification. At some point computers turned from being a tool you could create to a tool you use to consume other people's creations. From my experience, children today don't have enough patience to learn how to hack things around before they get bored and move on to the next thing. There amount of distractions is insane (web, social media, youtube, easily accessible video games etc). Its more likely a kid will avoid the problem than try to solve it at this point. I feel we lost something important along the way.

This has been my experience too. Not for a lack of trying either! Looking back now, it seems obvious.

I like to leave interesting things lying around where we hangout the most though. Giving them at least an opportunity to get interested (and almost inevitably lose interest!).

Computers weren’t on my radar until my grandmother surprised me with one. I came home from school and there lay 2 huge boxes. I was on my own from there.

I was given the opportunity.

Kickass Grandma!!

>>Parents as the driving force simply won’t work.

I keep seeing that myth. Most of the people I know studies the same as their parents, inspired by them. Specially what catches in kids are hobbies. I have lots of friend which are professional or semi professional musicians. All of them got the playing of the instrument from the parents.

My wife's siblings are all musicians because that's the direction their mom drove, but nearly all of them now wish that they'd been allowed to pursue what they were truly interested in. If given a choice, only one of six would have chosen music as the primary thing in their life.

Seeing that, my feeling isn't so much that parents as the driving force doesn't work, it's that it's cruel. Our kids are not blank slates for us to write on, they have many predispositions and interests that we have only the smallest influence over. It is far more effective and more ethical for us to help them develop those interests in ways that will benefit them over the long haul than to try to teach them the things that interest us.

There is a difference between showing to start interest and shoving down the throat. I know both kinds.

> Our kids are not blank slates for us to write on

So true. Hopefully we can give them (what we consider) good basic values. But we can't (and should try to) mold every aspect of their intests and personalities. And anyone who thinks that they can is in for a rude shock.

The Agon Console 8 springs to mind. It boots to BBC BASIC. https://www.hackster.io/news/the-agon-console8-is-an-educati...

Although more on the electronics side this is good for learning BASIC and one of the chips now does Assembly.

https://picaxe.com/what-is-picaxe/

The IDE is good and the manuals cover the topics well.

Pretty much the universal consensus seems to be Raspberry Pis.

Raspberry Pis were created for kids (originally built to support a BBC-sponsored educational program), and they remain fully committed to supporting kids.

Visit https://www.raspberrypi.org/ to see how they execute on that vision. Lots of great and manageable projects for kids ranging from relatively simple cook-book-based projects to sky's-the-limit adventures in insanity.

Go for nothing less than a Pi 4 8GB (required to run VScode reasonably). Or a Pi 5 obviously.

A GPIO breadboard might be a good strategy to get them hooked initially; but the novelty wears off pretty quickly. Offer to buy them any Pi hat or camera or panel that interests them. None of them are particularly expensive.

I learned file systems by pirating games and having to find the cracked folder. Html from neopets. Port forwarding router stuff from hosting multiplayer games. Hotkeys from Starcraft. Etc etc. Give smart kids a fun goal and they will learn a surprising amount trying to achieve it.

Although more on the electronics side this is good for learning BASIC https://picaxe.com/what-is-picaxe/

The manual support is good too.

Minecraft, you can build a whole computer in there from base principles. Kids as young as 11 do it.

Python with its Python shell - We - my 10 year old and I - are using Thonny as an editor. Just start the Phython editor an it‘s „all inside the box“. Closest to switch on a C64 from my days but in a modern world. Loading games, executing commands, running programs.

If you can get your kid interested in shader language, that's probably a skill that would be valuable for the rest of their tech life.

And it has a 1:1 effort to reward, as you get to see your efforts on the screen.

Whilst I understand the nostalgia, I think it's easy to forget that these things were modern and exciting - not so much today. I suggest you take what is here today and use it.

If it were me (and it may soon be) I would get them to make a static (ie with no backend processing) web page. It is easy and can be free to publish it. The basic page can then be enhanced with interaction using scripting almost without limits.

The child can show it off to anyone with a screen. You can control the publishing since it can be built offline.

And before you say JavaScript is terrible, so is Basic!

This is the modern equivalent to what you remember.

Maybe set them up at NeoCities, depending on age, but could also move into CGI and RSS with this. I may be way off, but I feel like CGI could be a bridge between markup and programming.

My sparse knowledge of CGI dates to the 90s, and IANAP(rogrammer).

My favorite part of those old computers was sitting with a big book of code and typing things in and seeing a sprite appear, then move, change colors, etc. The closest thing I've seen in recent years was Code Angel, which I supported on kickstarter. It came with a raspberry pi with all the software loaded, along with a monstrous book of code to flip through and type in. Looks like some of the links are dated, but it appears to still be available

https://mycodeangel.com/shop/

I'd go with the Mega65: https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/en/TE0765-03-S001-MEGA65-hi...

Tangentially, check out GNU Radio.... you can do a lot of cool audio stuff with it, and a cheap USB based receiver is only $25 or so. They could "build" an FM radio, etc.

It is weird now. I think, really interest things from past, games like Space Quest.

Also may be interest, games from DnD Universe, and other old style survive, where player learn different reality, craft things, etc.

Learning the DOS commands is not much value now, because now is post-industrial time. It is not enough to make thing, now you need to make some marketing to sell it.

I suggest an Arduino kit, with some servos, photocells, LEDs, switches etc. There's no screen on it, so they have to get used to the idea of dealing with inputs and outputs. This forces you to think deeply about what's going on.

Later, they could hook up an LCD screen and keypad to do things, if they want.

Later they could move away from the world of 5 volt I/O and into the world of 3.3 volt and less Raspberry Pi, etc, where things get trickier in terms of noise, etc.

Small robots, Raspberry Pi, small drones: those are the things I’ve seen at high school level.

The terrifying part is that the great majority of my 9th graders are not very experienced with actual computers (laptops included). Their knowledge of computing extends no further than their phones, but because phones are so powerful, there’s nothing, particularly mysterious or compelling about computers. They were like magic boxes that you just had to figure out somehow when I was a kid.

I've seen a number of posts like this usually wanting a specific device that is good for kids that has the appeal of old computers. The answer is that any laptop loaded with creativity app works great if you have an attitude shift that it is a creative device rather than a consumption device. Choose your apps and get used to building things with it. Avoid social media, youtube, netflix, and the fun will come back.

Unplug the computer from the internet, hand the kid a UNIX manual, and suck all joy from computing.

Having a working browser teach you programming is like having an android in the form of Kelly LeBrock teach you robotics. You're gonna want to do things to it that engage your little brain.

You're dating yourself with the LeBrock analogy! But it dates me too. I was too old to care about "Wierd Science" (was it?) but "Woman in Red"??? Good times!

Well simh was listed a couple days ago on HN. That and virtualization will get you just about all the old software experiences that you could want.

As for hardware . Visit a regional vintage computing festival.

There will be people very enthusiastic about what they have got working from that era.

Why would kids go back to old platforms? That's for us nostalgics. They should look at the future.

I wonder if this article is somehow related: "https://www.gamesindustry.biz/machine-code-is-for-kids-artic..."

TLDR: The author (a game developer who started with BASIC on ZX Spectrum in the 80s) asked if there's a modern equivalent of BASIC with "little to no abstraction". In the past, it used to be the BASIC-asm combo.

On a Raspberry Pi you can still run RiscOS and program in BASIC and assembly language.

And the Pi has all those nice GPIO pins.

Why just there be something like what we had? What did like-minded kids do before the 1980s? Phreaking? Electronics? Ham radio? Miniature railroads? It will find them, whatever it is. The hacking spirit is not limited to the domain of computers.

These are just my opinions, but:

- Arduino C with ESP32.

- https://scratch.mit.edu

- Basic Python (ala the wealth of No Starch Press Python books oriented towards kids and games and fun projects).

Well, apart from RPI - that has already been mentioned - you could look at the BBC microbit: https://microbit.org/

For the game angle https://arcade.makecode.com may be more of a fit. You can even build a cabinet.

Disclaimer: worked on both.

This is very cool!

makecode.com looks interesting - I'm surprised I hadn't heard much (anything?) about it until now.

From the web site, it is kind of hard to figure out what it is - it looks like MakeCode proper is a Scratch-like blocks language, but then there seem to be tutorials based on various languages and environments on multiple platforms, including micro:bit?

I remember learning 6502 assembler from popular computer magazine to add myself more armored divisions and nukes in some war strategy game on C-64. Hard to imagine these days with modern games.

Right? I remember messing around with config files as a starting point. I know it still exists but that it doesn't have the same accessibility it used to. I found this stuff on my own - now id probably have to lead my children to it after ressearch. Different dynamic thats all.

There's a mod scene around a lot of games. Start out liking a video game, get on some board discussing it, then find out there's people making customizations.

check out the Clockwork uConsole - fun piece of hardware to mess with.

https://www.clockworkpi.com/

Getting non-native games to run on emulators can sometimes give a similar experience.

You can also do things like having a Linux machine with a powerful GPU but no GUI installed.

Github Codespaces, no kidding. Launch some html5 game projects in codespaces and make modifications to get to know how it works.

The browser.

It has games which is the driver for a lot of people to explore computing environment.

A built in repl, full graphics stack, multimedia etc.

windows xp time wiseish, but don't do it.

I'd spin them up ubuntu on a newish PC or raspberry pi, let them install the packages in the terminal, steam, etc. Or experiment with some dev, and things they seem interested in. I think there are some very cool robotics kits for the pi that introduce them to a lot of things

Wow editing files and navigating directories, that sounds so fun these days /s

Build a redstone computer in minecraft

Arduino/ circuit python and Lego

Very interesting. I think I want to check out the Pico 8 next!

Computercraft in Minecraft is a fun example. Next Minecraft generally

Doing some fun projects with an eclectic mix of current tech SBCs, a language like Python, web technologies - pick a lightweight framework, AI, some big data sourced from the web. Plus have old laptops to disassemble and modify etc.

setting up a private minecraft server (or similar) on digitalocean or a rpi?

making goofy python scripts? pygame?

style transfer for voice on google colab?

various adafruit projects with microcontrollers or rpis?

langchain and similar?

if they're musically inclined, cycling 74 or puredata?

openframeworks, libcinder, processing and similar?

various robotics kits: drones, cars, "bring your own control" type things?

Any linux arm board will.give this experience.

Raspian Linux in a Raspberry Pi.

I wonder if there is a distro that locks the kid into the command line and offers a time of help?

Python and GPIO offer tons of cool embedded system possibilities.

Factorio, but for kids...

A raspberry pi

Pico-8

ESPHome

Minecraft

Your kids are most likely interested in things you are not interested in. It's understandable that you want your kids to have a great experience growing up and develop fond memories of their childhood like you were able to do.

Rather than trying to find something that replicates your childhood memories for them, why let them find those themselves? I'm sure your parents brought a computer into the house, but was that so that you could have the same childhood experience growing up with computers like they had? For them that computer was probably just a tool, for you it end up becoming a world. Or maybe your parents brought that computer into house because they thought it might become important to be exposed to.

I would suggest that you expose your kids to things like science, art, technology and engineering (high level) and let them decide what they find interesting, what clicks with them. Then all you have to do is support them where you can.

Chatgpt ?

Build a PC, install Linux on it, then figure out how to play Windows games on it with Wine (or Lutris). Show them what total ownership of their computer really feels like (or at least as close to that as possible while playing 3rd party games). I think that feeling of ownership of your computing environment is the real analog between what you describe back in the 80s and today's equivalent.

Good place to start: https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/

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