Police chief who led raid of Marion County Record has been suspended
apnews.com
apnews.com
Small Kansas newspaper says co-owner, 98, collapsed and died after police raid - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37120188 - Aug 2023 (43 comments)
Co-owner of Kansas newspaper dies after police raid - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37114892 - Aug 2023 (4 comments)
Illegal raids contribute to death of newspaper co-owner - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37105764 - Aug 2023 (103 comments)
A conversation with a newspaper owner raided by cops - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37102271 - Aug 2023 (118 comments)
Police stage ‘chilling’ raid on Marion County newspaper - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37096015 - Aug 2023 (138 comments)
Most police accountability discussion are binary ideas, false dilemmas
When you can easily ignore the police officer themself and create triggers that affect other people. Officer does something sketchy? Massive lien on the entire pension fund. That’ll make the people in the department keep each other in check. Make the consequence for not crossing the “thin blue line” greater.
There are lots of intermediaries vulnerable to this concept when looking at it this way.
Can’t ever get something besides a “justified” ruling on the violent action the police officer did?
Well prosecute the partner for giving a different instruction to the civilian that conflicted with the other officer’s that needlessly escalated the situation.
The police report doesnt match the video footage? Prosecute that for both the officer and the partner. Dont worry that the DA is going to rule the violent action justified, or that the prosecutor is going to be biased in telling juries what to do so that they always reach a justified verdict. You can still pin these procedural things on them as straight up crimes, or liens on the pension fund.
I can think of many permutations of this.
Use “broken windows theory” logic for civil and criminal sanctions on police officers.
Itll fix itself nationwide overnight.
Everybody can still “fear for their life” as a foolproof legal argument for split second violence, but they might fear their finances more. This satisfies partisan positions.
For example, here in the state of New South Wales, we have the New South Wales Police (our state police – Australia doesn't have independent local police forces, only federal and state/territory police), who are policed by the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission (LECC), who in turn are policed by the Inspector of the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission (ILECC), who in turn is policed by the NSW Ombudsman. And all three of the LECC, the ILECC, and the Ombudsman are accountable to the Parliamentary Joint Committee.
It isn't a perfect system and it doesn't solve everything, but it is better than not having it.
I think having so many independent local police forces in the US increases the risk of politicisation and corruption. If the Australian model was adopted (no independent local police, only state police), it would lead to greater professionalism and professional leadership, who would be less likely to engage in these kind of outrageous abuses, and face greater consequences if they did
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-51526607
Decreasing democratic accountability by centralizing control and installing appointees does not improve things, except sometimes in the very short term, if the political establishment is, for example, set on "reforming" an institution.
It's also my experience that the press, though still often fawning over (local) governments in the US, is much more adversarial than it is in other developed Western countries, which sweep a lot under the rug.
That's the standout case that everybody was in an uproar about .. a 2019 raid regarding a 2017 news story that was alleged to have been sourced from classified military documents from a war zone.
You'd have a point if this was a common occurence, which it isn't.
You'd have a point if this hadn't rippled backwards and forwards between multiple levels of media coverage and legal engagement, which it did.
You'd have a point if this was raiding journalists over trivial petty personal small town shit, which it wasn't.
What you have here is occassional line crossing not swept under a rug, in a full media and legal spotlight .. given that it's impossible to stop line crossing, it counts as success to have such things made public and investigated.
Maybe you regard it as “small town” petty BS, but local governance is the most important impactful daily politics in most people’s lives, which is why having the democratic process involved at that level is so important. Further, the newspaper is defending their actions as “likely” legal, which suggests even if the cops had ulterior motivations, maybe the journalists in question were not saints. They did at least convince a judge to approve it, though I would agree judges often exhibit the exact same problem as the commissions you applaud.
There are other examples of Australian police abuse too, of course - the Human Rights Watch report on Australian police got much less coverage.
The US has an unusually large degree of local democracy by international standards. But, do people from other rich Western countries which have weaker local governments feel jealous of America over this? In my experience, largely no. Which calls into question how valuable it really is
> There are other examples of Australian police abuse too
Nobody claims Australian police are saints, but I think everyone would agree they have less of a problem with abuse and brutality than US police do. On a per capita basis, annual numbers of people killed by law enforcement in the US is over 20 times higher than Australia (28.54 per 10 million in 2020 versus 1.7 per 10 million in 2016-17 per [0])
[0] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/police-ki...
Edit: Wikipedia’s figures are different, and show higher rate of police killings in Australia, but still have the US at over 6 times the rate per capita than Australia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_by_law_enforcement....
Which, I suppose, depends largely on whether you're an American or not. Having created a polity that broke completely from the European monarchic traditions, the whole idea was to have a vigorous collection of local democratic entities. For the most part it has proven to work well over the past 200-plus years. Do we care that those who don't share this level of local democracy don't miss having it? Do they know what they're missing? No, and probably not, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable.
The US system is actually more monarchical than the parliamentary systems found in most of Europe and the Commonwealth, whether we are talking about constitutional monarchies or parliamentary republics such as Germany, Austria or Ireland – https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32741802
"Great Britain is a republic with a hereditary president, while the United States is a monarchy with an elective king" (The Knoxville Journal, 9 February 1896)
> For the most part it has proven to work well over the past 200-plus years
When you look at various measures on which the US performs below average compared to comparable countries – such as police brutality – you have to ask to what extent this contributes to that.
> Do we care that those who don't share this level of local democracy don't miss having it? Do they know what they're missing? No, and probably not, but that doesn't mean it's not valuable.
What percentage of Americans think the way you do? Surely, it isn't 100%. Indeed, I wonder what percentage have ever seriously thought about this issue at all.
As for local democracy, police problems are far from the only measure of success (or failure). States, towns, cities and counties in the U.S. still freely elect mayors, councils, judges, sheriffs; they vote on local taxation for schools, libraries, and city, county and state services. Police behavior and oversite are definitely a problem, but not a good example of the whole of local democracy.
It's unfortunate, of course, that there are parts of the U.S. that use the democratic process to remove services as well as fund them. Locally elected legislatures, school boards and city councils use their delegated powers to defund libraries, restrict voting rights and medical services and, of course restrict abortion rights. Democracy means decisions are made you don't agree with.
I would contend that not many Americans think much about this because they haven't needed to. This is the way the country has always worked. On the other hand, you're right, it's not 100%, since there's a growing number of Americans who are using the tools of local democracy to remove and restrict rights and services to citizens.
Well, as I pointed out in another comment – the UK already had a parliamentary system by the 1770s. George III was no absolute monarch, Parliament called the shots. He did have somewhat more real power than Charles III does, but already by then the Prime Minister was the real ruler of the UK, and the monarch was reduced to playing second fiddle.
The last monarch of the UK who tried to stand up to Parliament was James II/VIII, who was overthrown in 1688 and replaced by new monarchs of Parliament's choosing (with his daughter Mary and her Dutch husband William of Orange as co-monarchs). Before him, James' father Charles I had lost his head due to a dispute with Parliament over who was boss. And then, when Mary's sister Anne died childless, Parliament chose to import Germany's Hanoverian dynasty, as the closest Protestant relatives, and George I's great grandfather became King. It was during the reign of George III's grandfather and predecessor, George II, that the decisive transfer of power from King to Prime Minister took place. Against that background, George III knew very well who was boss–not him.
> As for local democracy, police problems are far from the only measure of success (or failure). States, towns, cities and counties in the U.S. still freely elect mayors, councils, judges, sheriffs
We have local democracy in Australia too. We have local governments, who are elected by popular vote; mostly the voters elect councillors who then elect the mayor, but some parts of Australia have directly elected mayors; local governments have various functions, the most important of which is planning (or "zoning" to use the American terminology), but also maintain non-major roads, operate public parks, swimming pools and libraries, are responsible for stray dogs, beach patrols, food safety inspections, parking enforcement, etc. They also commonly run the water and sewerage systems, especially outside of major cities (in major cities, water and sewerage are often controlled by state governments instead.)
Probably the biggest difference is that a lot of things in the US which are run by local governments are in Australia run by state governments instead – law enforcement, the court system, jails, elections, public schools, public hospitals, public transport (rail and bus services).
Constitutionally, in both Australia and the US, only states are sovereign and towns/cities/counties/shires/etc are mere delegations of the sovereign power of the state, wholly subject to its laws. But in practice, US states create a lot more local governments, and delegate them a lot more power, than Australian states do.
One big difference is the idea of electing judges and prosecutors – in Australia (and also I think most of Europe), that is viewed as fundamentally unjust. Democratic election of judges and prosecutors compromises their independence, and hence calls into question the fairness, impartiality and justice of their decisions. Instead, judges are appointed by the government, as is the chief prosecutor of each jurisdiction – and their appointment is far less politicised than in the US, indeed few people here other than lawyers pay much attention to those appointments
W.Australia is 3x the size of Texas with a total population not much more than 2 million. Australia is ~ 24 million or so (IIRC) against the US's 350+ million.
The task of governing each AU state can likely be mapped in complexity against the task of running a few small US cities or smaller US states with low populations.
The US requires an extra layer or two to match representation.
The US also carries a burden of weight of years, AU Government is just over 120 years since 1900 Foundation and still relatively nimble, the US has ossified and become somewhat deified in the eyes of some since its creation.
Strong agreement on the election of judges, etc. in the US - that just comes across as wrong to outside eyes.
I don't agree. If we are talking about the distribution of powers between state and local governments, the population of the country as a whole doesn't matter, just the population of each state.
Australia's most populous state, New South Wales (NSW), has a single state police force with a population of 8.1 million. If it were a US state, it would come 13th in population, between Virginia and Washington. So, 37 US states (74%) have a smaller population than New South Wales. At 800,000 km^2, NSW has a larger land area than every US state except for Alaska. If a single state police force can work in an Australian state with a population of 8 million, I see no reason why it couldn't work in a US state with both a smaller population and a smaller land area.
And, if a single state police force works for a state of 8 million, why assume 8 million is some kind of maximum? It might work just as well for a state of 12 million or 16 million or 24 million or 30 million. It might even work for California or Texas. Some countries with much larger populations than either have national-level police only.
But even if we say that California or Texas are "too big" for a single state police force – rather than their current systems of literally hundreds of independent local law enforcement agencies (county sheriffs and municipal police departments), why not divide each state into NSW-sized chunks (by population). Then California and Texas would each be divided into around 4 or 5 regions, each with its own democratically-elected regional governments, controlling the regional police force. Some would even argue that both California and Texas are too big, and each ought to be broken up into 3-5 smaller states.
> The US also carries a burden of weight of years, AU Government is just over 120 years since 1900 Foundation and still relatively nimble, the US has ossified and become somewhat deified in the eyes of some since its creation.
The US national constitution says nothing about the division of power between state and local governments. In fact, if a US state decided to abolish all local governments and replace them by direct rule by the state government, I've never heard anyone argue that would violate the national constitution. The US constitution (just like Australia's) is completely silent on the issue of local government.
So, however ossified the US national constitution may be (actually it has been amended more frequently than Australia's!), isn't really relevant to the discussion here. And many US state constitutions are far less ossified than the US national constitution; Alabama rewrote their state constitution in 2022 (their previous state constitution dated from 1901, and during its life was amended 977 (!) times); previously, Rhode Island did the same thing in 1986, Georgia in 1983, Louisiana in 1975, Montana in 1973, Illinois, North Carolina and Virginia in 1971, etc. Since statehood, Louisiana has had 11 different constitutions, Georgia 9, Alabama and Virginia 7, etc. Of the original 13 colonies, the only one which still has its original 17th century constitution in force is Massachusetts.
I failed to convey well the nature of two vague thoughts.
With more than 16x the population of Australia and a heirarchy of representation limited by some naturally occuring factor at each level it's expected that the US would have more layers of organisation between a citizen and the highest decision making level.
In a policing example, if one constable can walk the beat of a 100 citizens, and one Sargeant can oversee 100 constables, etc. how many layers are there between the fishmonger and the ultimate head (similarly for political representation, etc).
It's a crude coverage issue.
Similarly I referred to the US as ossified and deified not so much in the sense of actual real constitutional changes (it was interesting what you wrote and that you were across the details) but more in the sense of what the common US citizen on forums appears to believe about their own country.
There are strong divisions on how the original Constitution should be interpretated coupled with apparent unification on the notion that it should be held in the highest regard.
Neither of these vague notions particularly tie into the specifics of local governance within states, although the first relates to more generic control theory problem of how many sensors can a controller watch and how many controllers can a supervisor moniter, etc.
In 2021, Australia's population was 25.69 million, and the US population was 331.9 million – so US population was 12.9 times Australia's. Australia's population grows faster than the US, mainly due to significantly higher immigration (on a per capita basis), which causes the ratio to shrink over time - the figure you are citing was accurate 50+ years ago. By 2050, the ratio will probably have fallen to 11 or so; by the end of this century, it could easily be under 10.
> With more than 16x the population of Australia and a heirarchy of representation limited by some naturally occuring factor at each level it's expected that the US would have more layers of organisation between a citizen and the highest decision making level.
Well, the US does have 50 states versus only 6 for Australia – so that is the obvious level at which the US deals with being a much more populous country. US states are on average about 50% more populous than Australia's – 13 times the population but only 8 times as many states – but, the average US state has less people than NSW, Victoria's population is close to the US state average.
Given they deal with being more populous by having more states, it isn't clear why they'd have to do that again at the sub-state level, especially given that 74% of US states have fewer people than NSW. And, maybe things in the US would work better if they added another 10 or so states by breaking up some of the larger ones, in which case the average state population gap between Australia and the US would shrink significantly.
> Similarly I referred to the US as ossified and deified not so much in the sense of actual real constitutional changes (it was interesting what you wrote and that you were across the details) but more in the sense of what the common US citizen on forums appears to believe about their own country.
I think you are on to something in that Americans are politically conservative – even Americans who identify as "liberal" or "progressive" are fundamentally conservative, if we put aside economics and hot-button social issues, and just focus on the core meaning of conservatism as "resistance to change". America's politics – even at the state level – are so ossified because US culture is (in that sense) much more conservative than that of the UK or Australia, among other countries. The extreme slowness in the adoption of the metric system is arguably another example of that.
If you redefine “monarchy” to refer to concentration of power and not the proprietary, hereditary, personal character of paramount leadership, strong Presidential systems are more “monarchical” within their scope of power than most parliamentary systems. OTOH, the US federal government has a narrow scope of authority than most national governments, which makes the overall concentration of power less even though the concentration of that power actually held by the feds is greater.
Really, ignoring the essential proprietary factors of both monarchy and feudalism, the decentralization of feudalism is probably a better comparator to the US system than the centralism of monarchy (whereas European countries were more centralized in the 18th Century and have generally gotten even more centralized since, with a little but of recent backoff.)
Its probably more significant that many European (but mostly not Commonwealth) countries, are more effectively democratic than the US, but parliamentarianism is less important than proportionality there.
Historically, elective monarchies have been a real thing. The Holy Roman Empire is the most famous example, even though for a significant period of its history it became de facto hereditary.
Several Roman Emperors chose their own successors from non-relatives, and retained the hereditary fiction by legally adopting them.
In Saudi Arabia, there has never been formal rules about who will be the successor to the throne – instead, each King chooses his own successor. King Salman has broken with the tradition of passing the Kingship among the sons of King Saud (albeit discretionally, since some sons were skipped due to being politically out of favour, or too elderly by the time it was their turn), by appointing as his successor his sixth son. If a King of Saudi Arabia wanted to appoint someone completely unrelated to him as his successor, he could, assuming his family let him get away with it.
> OTOH, the US federal government has a narrow scope of authority than most national governments, which makes the overall concentration of power less even though the concentration of that power actually held by the feds is greater.
That's nothing to do with the parliamentary versus presidential issue, that's due to the US being a federation – so are federal parliamentary republics such as Germany and Switzerland, and federal parliamentary constitutional monarchies such as Australia and Canada. Presidential-versus-parliamentary and unitary-vs-federal are orthogonal dimensions and neither has much to do with the other.
I've got to agree with skissane here on this.
Do you know who else broke from European monarchic traditions? Most of Europe, the UK in particular started in 1066 and by WWI (say) had a monarchy that was almost entire symbolic in power and fully deferred to the elected Government to make decisions.
The bulk of the European monarchies were overtaken internally by governments that preserved the ideal of a crowned head of state but didn't allow them to hold any significant reins of power.
The US "breaking away" from the King's taxes was a good example of UK investors protecting their investments and further weakening the ability of UK monarchy from raising taxes for petty family disputes (ie. wars much larger than the American Revolutionary War)
While the US made a radical jump for the time in which it was founded, it didn't really politically evolve much since - as noted in the peer comment "the United States is a monarchy with an elective king", evidenced by all the Presidental moves taking the US to war, etc. without full approval, the apparent inability of the US government to successfully prosecute a President, etc.
Australia, for example, came along to independence later and established a "Washminster" system of Government, one that drew from both the UK Westminister system and the US Washington system.
What you call a "vigorous collection of local democratic entities" much of the G20 would see as a backwards assembly of petty fiefdoms with local sheriffs imagining themselves a little king.
Even by the time of the American Revolution, the British monarch was largely a figurehead, and Parliament held the majority of the real power
The American rebels blamed all the policies they hated on King George III – that made good propaganda, but if they'd directed their anger at Lord North (the PM) instead, it would have been more accurate
The historian David Cannadine [0] even argues "the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed" – possibly suggesting that it wasn't just propaganda, but rather that on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean they'd failed to understand how the British system actually worked
> The US "breaking away" from the King's taxes was a good example of UK investors protecting their investments and further weakening the ability of UK monarchy from raising taxes for petty family disputes (ie. wars much larger than the American Revolutionary War)
While the Seven Years War did involve some "petty family disputes", they weren't what it was really all about, any more than the First World War was really about the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. The Seven Years War arguably started in North America, as a war between France and Britain (that sub-theatre is generally known as the "French and Indian War")–a war which the Americans wholeheartedly supported, on the British side–and one of the complaints of the Declaration of Independence was that the British had conceded too much to France in the peace negotiations (e.g. agreeing to allow newly conquered Quebec to keep the French legal system)
[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32741802 – same source as I linked in my other comment
The equivilent comparison would be to include deaths in US prisons along with the given figures for the more direct and deliberate US deaths caused by US police officers.
I doubt they have an internal affairs...
They swooped in to help investigate and now should be investigated.
They should be arresting the Police Chief not supporting him.
https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article2...
Still way more accountability than the FBI.
Effectively yes. I forgot to mention the FBI or state equivalents earlier but, as @frankharv already pointed out, they're at least as likely to cover for a rogue police chief as to investigate them. This was especially evident in the civil rights era, when police at many levels were often the main agents of racial oppression throughout the south.
> Is this considered normal?
Yes, not because of budgets but because of US attitudes toward authority, federalism, etc. See @willcipriano's comment for an example of this in what might be its mildest form (it gets far worse). "Our police chief might be a bastard, but he's our bastard." Far bigger offenses than this one have been quietly tolerated as an alternative to intrusion from a distant capital, all over the US and all through its history.
I think I understand. Is there a reasoning why there is no local oversight?
I get the small town argument. But here in Europe small towns fall under the jurisdiction of larger towns. How could this be considered "federal overstepping"?
Because just about anything is considered federal overreach in much of the US. Remember, this country was founded on resistance to a far-off authority. The south got a "booster shot" of anti-federal-government sentiment with the civil war, and still haven't gotten over it 170 years later. We even had a president (Reagan) who explicitly sowed distrust of the very federal government he headed, and that was during my adult lifetime. Whole books have been written about the quintessentially American distrust of any government beyond the horizon, so I could hardly do it justice here, but I will note that it's a key part of every other political debate we have.
I've spent most of my life in "commonwealth" states (PA, MA, VA), which (legend has it) are founded on a similar principle: the local governments can do what they want unless the state explicitly decides it's a state-level responsibility.
It's supposed to be a bottom-up structure, where middle tiers (Counties) are more a pooling of resources for the towns than a middle-manager for the State. There's often lots of "regional councils" or associations rather than "branch offices" of state agencies you'd see in a top-down structure. There may also be a County-level government with more or less power, depending on the state and specific topic.
They often have jurisdictional lines that reflect their pooling of grant-writing resources rather than simple geographic regions (like FEMAs) [1,2]. In the absence of statewide guidelines, these organizations often set the standards (often because the state can't or won't).
That is, the intermediate jurisdiction is often a voluntary collaboration - usually among the more progressive/better-funded townships/departments - and it's often the small-town departments that don't participate in these councils that have this "leave us alone" attitude and especially lax standards.
[1] https://www.shacog.com/SystemImages/SHACOGCommunities.png
[2] http://www.nemlec.com/img/NEMLEC-mapcompress.png[0] http://marionks.citycode.net/articleOfficersAndEmployees.htm...
[1] https://www.ksrevisor.org/statutes/chapters/ch14/014_002_000...