A much-repeated finding in surveys is that childless adults are happier than parents.
I'm not sure we should accept the premise that maximizing subjective happiness is a suitable replacement as if we all just didn't have children and were thus "happier", would the world really work or would there be no future for humanity?
I'm not sure what the purpose of life is and obviously for every person that purpose is probably very different, but I'm skeptical of the idea that maximizing subjective happiness is a good life philosophy and it seems like everyone has adopted it everywhere.
What remains are two options:
1. Optimize for the future/betterment of humanity
2. Optimize for your own happiness
Option 1 feels a bit like optimizing for something that will always be our of reach for me personally. It's almost like a reverse pyramid game where I'm doing something that only people who will live after me will benefit from. Except they won't really, as they'll be optimizing for yet farther into the future.
I'm perfectly happy optimizing to keep the planet a great place to live, but as half of a consciously childless couple I don't feel particularly inclined to make sure that there are actually descendants to enjoy this planet. I'm okay if other species inherit the earth
I believe that everything should be taken in moderation and that extremes generally are bad, so you should not totally optimize on any one thing, but should generally do somethings you enjoy and some that give you pleasure. You should do somethings for humanity and somethings for the community and to make others do well. You should probably take some ideas from religion and integrate them into your life, but not become a zealot. I think you should try to have children if you can, because children seem to be some aspect of the world and life that's important. I think you should try and make some money and work in a field that get good pay, but that you do enjoy and that's relatively stable. I think you should try and be there for your family and view them as a small community, but not expect anything from them or try and fight with them. I think you should avoid drugs and other things that are generally bad for you if you can.
To the people who believe that happiness is the point of life. I also think there is a decent amount of scientific evidence that people's happiness levels are pretty static over time and if you find some success in your life, you will be happy for a short time, but your happiness will return to the static level of your life. I think that people, and things, and many external things cannot make you happy and happiness can only be found from within. However, I don't think that that is the point.
I think that our natural dissatisfaction with the world and unhappiness about it is how we make the world a better place and that it is how progress is made by celebrating our wins and then becoming dissatisfied and trying to be better.
So it only matters how you feel about it at the end?
IMO the journey is more important than the end.
I’m just asking open ended questions here. I don’t have any answers.
Here are a few more to ponder:
- Why does the squirrel bury nuts in the warmer months instead of eating them right away?
- Why save money instead of spending every paycheck?
- Why not spend every day gaming, drinking and smoking?
- why cultivate friendships, have experiences like travel, build hobbies and skills that will give you joy all through your life?
For many people, the time and financial cost of children means delaying or sacrificing all those.
For most, the investment of having children during the front end of life is no brainer with huge returns.
There is no guarantee that my body will be healthy and capable of things like extreme sports and adventures later.
My only suggestion is try to consider what you may want at 50, 60, 70 and how you have a short window in your 20s and 30s to have children.
For me that means being deeply immersed in my hobbies, and traveling the world and being active etc. All that I expect to change are toning down the active activities to things that an older body can still manage, like skiing, scuba diving, hiking etc.
I can't see ever wanting kids or even coming close to that as I haven't even ever had a desire for a partner yet.
I would argue that you probably have no idea what your future self will want. This is why advice from elders, parables and traditions are valuable. Ignore what they suggest at your own risk.
There just isn't a single thing about a significant other or kids that I have ever even thought about wanting.
It just seems very weird to me to do a complete 180 and pursue all these things that I have 0 interest in pursuing. I wouldn't even know how to begin. Forcing myself to get a significant other etc just seems like a bad idea and at the very least a big disservice to whoever I end up pursuing.
When you work on something you love, you don't see it as a burden, though sometimes it might objectively be a burden. There's no trade-off between happiness now and happiness later in that case.
Perhaps part of it is whether one has the disposition to find happiness in things that are hard work. Perception matters. If changing diapers and looking after infants and toddlers in general is your idea of a bad time, it shouldn't surprise if you then find that you have a bad time doing it. On the other hand if you see changing diapers and all that as incidental to a great adventure, then you're going to be happy to do those chores, and very happy overall.
> IMO the journey is more important than the end.
The journey to where? To death. There's no other end. Therefore we must enjoy the journey -- make it fulfilling, joyful, enjoyable. But how? We are not all born into great wealth, so most of us have to work hard some of the time in order to have great fun the rest of the time. If we see downtime-enabling hard work as a serious burden, we're not likely to enjoy the journey.
Parenting is like that, and like many creative activities it is intrinsically rewarding. In any creative endeavor, your creations may outlast you, and that may make the endeavor more meaningful than a more hedonistic life. Parenting is a creative endeavor; the knowledge that you'll be remembered long after you're gone is part of the reward of parenting, but the love of parenting while you're doing it is much greater still.
So people who don't love their job should not have kids, got ya. By not having kids you can live so cheaply that you barely need to work a job. If kids means you spend 8 hours a day being miserable and the rest of the time worrying about it then kids will make you miserable.
And if you fail? Do you still recommend having kids? In my experience there is great overlap between not wanting kids and hating work, for such people kids would likely ruin their life. Fathers being miserable and some killing themselves due to having to work jobs they hate so much is common, people just don't want to live like that.
The studies you refer to regard subjective happiness at particularly difficult child rearing years.
Anecdata from older childless people, the emptiness of childless life once you’re beyond young adulthood is sobering and incredibly sad.
But yeah hold onto those studies that make you feel ok.
They are work and require sacrifice but it can be an investment that pays huge dividends for the rest of your life.
You’re not a bad person if you don’t want children. I think most people with children trying to convince you to have some are well-meaning and just don’t want childless people to miss out.
My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. You will grow to take on the new responsibility. But do it no later than age 40.
There are tangos (and I'm sure country western, and other songs) that are all about the protagonist having had all these ladies as a young man, but never a woman, or how they left behind the one woman who was their soul mate just to get laid with lots of others. E.g., Ansiedad, by Juan D'Arienzo[0][1].
Here's Nick Freitas talking about getting married at 19[2]. Be sure to read some of the comments.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHGmN9GTPM
[1] https://www.musixmatch.com/es/letras/Juan-D-Arienzo/Ansiedad/traduccion/ingles
[2] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/u_q8-UNk4TUBut if you’re mature enough to debate the pros and cons of having children, you hopefully won’t be a bad parent if you do choose have kids.
Your 20s are the prime years for reproduction, biologically.
Uhh this sounds like terrible advice--kids aren't cars that can be returned or sold if it turns out the "small part" was incorrect.
They are not a pet or a piece of personal property. Caring for a child is the biggest responsibility of your life and it will likely not go according to plan. If you’re unable to grow to meet the demands, then it may be best to wait.
I think you misunderstand me though--and I'm not sure how, to be frank, I think what I was saying was pretty clear from the context:
Precisely because it's such a huge responsibility, etc., the person to whom I was replying was giving bad advice. They were (basically) suggesting having a kid even if one is unsure about whether one wants to.
edit: oh you're the poster to whom I was replying. Above, you said:
> My advice would be: if even a small part of you thinks you want children, just do it. You will grow to take on the new responsibility.
Now you're turning around and saying "oh no, it's a grave responsibility that shouldn't be taken lightly, don't do it if you're not ready".
This is the dominant perspective on the social media that younger generations spend their time on. I’d argue that as a person in their mid 20s today, actually wanting kids is the bizarre position. I often feel alienated for openly stating it among good friends of mine.
The person they were replying to referred to studies; the person you replied to essentially said they love their children and that childless people find emptyness towards the end.
I believe both, and both can be true at the same time, especially considering that I've also heard of studies which showed that people tend to diminish past negative experiences. The parent will view the here and now, with happy children that are doing well, and see that all is good and hard work paid off. The childless person may have fewer people around them in later years, but which has a greater sum of total happiness? Being able to do for fifty years whatever your heart desires, or some happy end where someone sees you go and has a lot of pain from that? (I guess the latter might be partially my bias talking, but I truly am trying to view this objectively, like how one can explain both the study and the subjective experience from the person you replied to.)
What's it like?
I agree that a world without children sounds sad, but with the way things are going, a world with them seems sadder to me.
We are literally living humanity’s best years. Children today basically get sad for not having enough time to play Roblox. How sad is it that they have schoolwork to do instead of subsistence farming? And we get sad over climate change while stuffing our faces with cheap and delicious food while the AC is on.
As a teenager, my grandfather lost a set of teeth due to the winter's cold, by sleeping in a cold barn, and he described it as a near-death experience. If anything, for many regions of the world, the weather getting hotter may be a relief for the poor that don't have heating in the winter.
We have zero reasons to be more depressed than prior generations. If we are depressed, don't you think the constant fear porn from mass-media has more to do with it?
PS: it's not just the carbs that are cheaper and more available. It's everything, including meat. Staples of any healthy vegan diet, like green peas, or lentils, weren't even available until ~1960, after industrial agriculture caught on. Never mind the availability of fresh fruits year-round. My grandparents basically lived on a diet of polenta, potatoes, milk, and eggs, as that's what they were able to grow.
I didn't have to read about it on the news; I lived it. The heat this year was soul-crushing and we're not that far into the 21st century. Do you think countries with lower rates of depression do not have mass media?
Indeed, the number of people dying from extreme heat is going up, but that number was small to begin with. And you know what the solution will be? To install some air conditioning, much like how we survive winter by having indoor heating, and maybe to adjust our work schedule a little.
"Soul crushing", no offence, but JFC.
Is there any world in which this trivializing response to someone expressing serious dismay is not deeply offensive?
Don’t believe what you read, and perhaps don’t judge anyone at their worst moments. Don’t stereotype based on the vocal and visible few.
Here’s a story written yesterday about a child who is already experiencing this in kindergarten.
https://www.thecut.com/2023/09/do-kids-need-ambition.html
You may think that because you have not suffered, no one else does, but I assure you that is not correct.
I can’t begin to know your experience. The fact is that I live with an unyielding fear of people. So even as I’m grateful for the joy in the house right now I’m deeply uncomfortable, bordering on panic.
Im grateful that I can see the fear is unfounded but that doesn’t make it less real. That knowledge extends to knowing the fear is only impactful on others if I let it manifest in my actions. It always will, but insomuch as I choose my actions it doesn’t have to make much mark on the world.
Reading that now it feels a little awful but I absolutely don’t mean it so. I hope you can find peace for yourself.
The winter can be much colder for those without warm memories of summer.
Actually, grandparents have it good. They get the fulfilment of family without the relentless grind of parenting.
Who cares for the childless?
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4104138-one-qua... ("One quarter of adult children estranged from a parent")
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.12898 ("Parent–adult child estrangement in the United States by gender, race/ethnicity, and sexuality")
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-23124345 ("New China law says children 'must visit parents'")
Also, self-reported happiness surveys are BS.
I’ve been to Scandinavia. They are definitely NOT among the happiest people in the world. They simply think they should say they are happy.