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Comment by thegagne | Hacker News Reader

Any recommendations for #3? Particularly with low barrier of entry for kids? Something you can use a midi keyboard and a mic with?

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Take a look at Reaper. It's a professional quality tool, but easy enough to get started with for kids too, its license is very friendly and the trial version isn't limited in any way. The Windows version always worked for me under Linux using WINE with very low latency, but they made a Linux port which is great. If you use the Linux port, you may want to use Yabridge to load Windows VSTs in a transparent way.

http://reaper.fm/

https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge

I'm a heavy Reaper user since I love the experience of editing with it, but when I'm fooling around writing songs, I use Garage Band specifically because it has so many great instruments and sounds, and also because I find I interact with it much differently than with Reaper or Pro Tools because of the simplified interface and I don't get sucked into fiddling with the details of what I'm making.

Before Garage Band, I used Tracktion (I think its now called Tracktion Waveform Free) in the same manner. It's been ages since I used it but if you're a Windows or Ubuntu user I think it'd be worth checking out.

Ableton has like a 3 month trial and honestly the stuff it comes with out of the box is way more than enough to determine if you want to continue with such a hobby or if it's not something you'd be interested in long term. The tutorials are plenty and easy to follow as well.

I use Reaper as well, but it takes a while to get that "useable" for modern(ish) music production. The benefit is there's plenty of free virtual instruments/VSTs to download. All of them have downsides though as does reaper itself. In Ableton I can make an EDM track relatively fast given the out of the box presets - especially synth drums - but in Reaper using a free VST like HELM makes it kind of a pain to use. YMMV.

No matter what you choose, I do HIGHLY recommend downloading Spitfire LABS though - the free instrument packages are massive and highly customizable. It's truly amazing.

Here's some good VSTs for Reaper:

https://plugins4free.com/instruments/ (when the site works)

https://web.archive.org/web/20181203014924/http://sonic.supe...

https://guitarclan.com/best-free-vst-plugins/

EDIT: oh also trying to master a track in Reaper with free plugins is frankly pretty bad for a beginner vs Ableton's preset limiters and other utilities. The Cuckoos plugins are messy to deal with in my opinion.

Ableton and Reaper are way too complicated for kids. I'd say they are 14+ software.

Don't undersell kids. If they get interested in something they can learn it scary quick.

But having said that, sometimes the thing that grabs the interest is recording your voice in the windows built in recorder then playing it back backwards. Try audicity?

Some cool (albeit pricey) devices to toy with are the AIRA compact series by Roland[0].

In the same vein, the Novation Grooveboxes[1] offer some expanded capabilities that don't require a computer. Second-hand pricing is quite reasonable for both.

[0]: https://www.roland.com/au/categories/aira/aira_compact/

[1]: https://novationmusic.com/categories/samplers-grooveboxes

I always find GarageBand to be an easy-to-pick-up app that can be used to generate fun sonic blurbs in a short amount of time. It has its own limitations, but the lack of complexity contributes to its ease of use.

When I was trying to figure out something on GarageBand I ended up on YouTube looking for tutorials and was astounded to see what people are doing with GarageBand on their phone. They play the DAW itself like an instrument and build songs in realtime. It was very humbling to see.

Absolutely, REAPER. While it may be a little obtuse to learn, it is absolutely as powerful as the big guys in music production such as ProTools. Plus it works on both Windows and Mac, unlike Logic.

There is a big community around REAPER also, and tons of YouTube videos around it. Plus, you can download it and work with it for free, but after a while, it will want you to pay for it, which is only $60...but you can keep using it if you don't (though I would encourage you to pay for it if you like it).

Works on Linux too! https://www.reaper.fm/download.php

Reaper works on Linux, but a warning to anyone thinking of trying that, DAWs are all about adding and using plugins. And you'll need to confirm your favorite plugins run on Linux as well.

Check out Korg Gadget![0] It's got an Ableton-Live-style clip launcher that's easy to compose in, and a variety of "gadget" instruments that produce different kinds of sounds. If you balk at $30 for an app, it goes on sale for half price a good 3-4 times a year, usually around holidays. You can hook up any midi devices (BLE midi or via the USB camera kit adapter, if not on a usbc iPad). If you've got an iPad with a headphone jack you can pick up an iRig clone for <$10 that gets you line / mic / guitar input, too.

If you've got an iPad that's probably the best start (it'll run on any iPad 2 or above). It will run on iPhone's but it's a bit harder to play. There's also a Nintendo Switch version (it's more limited, eg no audio recording or export), and a mac version (but it's pricey). Annoyingly, the Mac and iOS versions are separate, but at least the iPhone and iPad versions come together as one purchase.

[0]: https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/korg_gadget/

GarageBand - it's super quick to throw something together, has a wealth of virtual instruments and the user interface is in the same vein as professional DAWs, so there's a growth path if this is something kids enjoy and want to pursue further.

Back in the 90s kids used a variety of sample trackers on their Amiga home computers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_tracker#Selected_list_of...

Oh, and samples? Kids used hardware samplers to rip or record their own:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37376675

And how'd that work out? The end result was a piece of music called a module ("mod"). Strangely enough, I can't find exact (or even approximate) numbers. A snapshot of the MOD archive from 2007 had 120k mods:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod_Archive

So, yeah, a very low barrier of entry... ;-)

I commented elsewhere, but my goal is to hide the DAW as completely as i can and give them a midi keyboard, Korg nanoKONTROL2 and some background config or automation that lets them choose synth sounds and record themselves play. As someone who played piano to a decent level up to my teens, I've always felt that throwing up a DAW just gets in the way of making music. Especially when I'm getting back into it after a long break. Complicated interfaces just sap my time and energy and I eventually find that I've wasted a lot of time without striking a key on the piano.

I believe BandLab is being used in schools to teach music making now. It’s web based, I’ve not used it much myself so can’t comment on how good it is but may be an easy starting point

Sadly, its the group I pay the least attention to. I suspect that today or next week, something browser based might be the best choice, but I can't tell you what. Apologies.

Latency matters a lot. I can’t see a browser-based DAW ever being very compelling.

Depends. For mixing it barely matters. For performance, if you're playing a MIDI controller live, then perhaps not (though browser latency is not that bad these days). But if you're working with clips & samples, it isn't likely to matter much.

Related question: any suggestions on what to try next after LMMS?

I was planning to try Reaper or FL Studio.

My biggest complaints with LMMS are: doesn’t support VST3, can’t see notes for multiple tracks at the same time (although I saw a “ghost notes” patch someone was working on for this scenario).

Honestly, try the trial for both. Give Ableton and Bitwig a go if you have time as well. Or at least check out all 4 on youtube and see if a particular workflow strikes you.

Unfortunately the open source DAWs don't hold a candle to any of the paid ones. But once you're paying they're all pretty solid. It's like asking if you should move to vim or emacs or jetbrains after starting with Notepad++. They're all good and everyone will have their own favorite. Many people also use multiple DAWs the same way people use multiple text editors. Personally I use Ableton and Reaper

Thanks! Yeah, it's subjective, but I thought the chances of someone making the same progression (LMMS to ???) on HN were pretty high. Of course, I left out tons of context that might have helped (e.g. some people want to make music live--I do not).

Really, it might make the most sense to just find music similar to what I've made (or want to make), and then ask/research what they're using. Edit: I think that's how I originally found FL Studio and Reaper, come to think of it!

On Linux, try Ardour (Free) and Bitwig (between $99 and $399-ish but they have a 30day trial)

Anything "free", Cakewalk, Garageband, Waveform, MPC Beats, or whatever license that comes with your midi keyboard. All these are already crazy powerful for a hobbyist.

Garageband - my kids love it.

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