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Comment by agloe_dreams | Hacker News Reader

I'm not sure framing it as a joint venture is the right way to frame it, though they use the term to describe it that way. VAG put Mate in charge of a new division - Bugatti Rimac Automobiles. They are the parent company of Bugatti and Rimac. In it, Rimac holds 55%, VAG owns 45%. However, VAG also owns 22% of Rimac below, so VAG has technical controlling interest here. By any regards though, they basically did an Apple/NEXT type of takeover, where VAG bought much of Rimac but Mate took over Bugatti. Obviously, I think this all makes your point stronger.

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They didn't buy Rimac, they bought a stake. It used to be 24%, not sure if it's bigger now https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36920070/bugatti-rimac-po...

I updated the comment, It's really weird. They bought a part but also effectively gave Rimac the Bugatti company. One can argue that they basically leveraged Bugatti to acquire some control of Rimac and board seats without spending actual money.

They have a glorious flowchart on their site. https://web-cdn.rimac-automobili.com/wp-content/uploads/2021...

That IS a glorious chart, thank you; am I the only one who would REALLY want some arrows there? :)

It would be hilarious if it also had the fact that Porsche is owned by Volkswagen, and Volkswagen in turn... owns Porsche. https://www.bosshunting.com.au/motors/cars/volkswagen-group-...

That chart reminds me of Korean chaebols ownership structure right before the big crash of 1997

Asianometry How the Rich Ate South Korea https://youtu.be/hWCcvOE84Ao?t=489

Porsche has a 45% stake in Bugatti Rimac and a 22% stake in Rimac Group, which has a 55% stake in Bugatti Rimac. So it's complicated.

I like my conglomerates like my datastructures, directed and acyclic :p

Not that complicated. Porsche was once described as "the hedge fund that happens to also build cars".

Porsche did this stake here and there thing precisely to gain > 50% of Rimac voting rights.

It's simple really: Porsche controls Rimac.

Then there's the whole "VW took control of Porsche after the short squeeze made by Porsche to try to acquire VW failed" (it failed due to the sudden crash during the 2008 banking crisis IIRC). And now Porsche is apparently spinning out of VW and shall be independent again.

They only own 22% in Rimac, that's not a controlling stake. Therefore they don't have > 50% of Rimac (Rimac Bugatti I assume) voting rights.

I missed where VAG bought Rimac. Are you sure this is true? Here is an org chart for Rimac Bugatti, and AFAIK the ownership structure has not changed since:

https://www.rimac-automobili.com/media/press-releases/rimac-...

It's not Volkswagen AG who took control of Bugatti and Rimac, it's Porsche.

And Porsche is spinning out of VW and becoming independent again:

https://capital.com/porsche-volkswagen-vw-demerger-spin-off

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a36933399/did-porsc...

(answer is "yes" btw)

Huh, why would VAG just give up on Porsche like that? Especially that Porsche holdings owns a big part of VAG itself.

Because the people controlling VW are the same that arw behind Porsche, namely the families Porsche and Piech.

Ah but Porsche is not Porsche but instead Porsche AG and Porsche SE.

It is pure insanity in need of many flow charts.

Independent, except VW AG still holds a majority of the ordinary voting shares and the rest of the Porsche AG voting shares are held by the family holding company that also holds the controlling shares of VW AG. At the moment, the same person is also CEO of both companies.

So what happens if you have 22% of a company that owns 55% of a joint venture? I don't _think _ you actually get to take a decision on 22% of the 55%, do you? The 22% company's board would probably get together, decide on a single vote for the 55% percentage and your ownership would not be useful in decision making?

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