There were no humans at all in New Zealand until about 1250AD
teara.govt.nz
teara.govt.nz
I am unsure why there wasn't earlier immigration from Australia, possibly technological or cultural. Australia is huge, so maybe there wasn't population or resource motivation to explore and settle new lands.
They did have boats (dugouts), but they weren’t suited for the ocean.
https://australian.museum/learn/cultures/atsi-collection/cul...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Canoes
Also indigenous to the Sahul
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torres_Strait_Islanders
who lived on islands and travelled between PNG and Queensland, Australia but didn't venture south past the Great Barrier Reef and to New ZEaland - but did have the boats and seafaring skills.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassar_people
who lived in (modern) Indonesia but routinely traded and fished between Northern Australia and China
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanging
again, they never (to current knowledge) travelled around and past the Great Barrier Reef.
Indigenous Australians were not mariners, they reached australia by island hopping, and at a time when the sea levels were even lowers and thus the distances between islands were lower (Tasmania was a peninsula at the time).
While NZ is close to Australia by air, the Tasman sea is 1700km of open unforgiving ocean. This is not a distance you can reasonably cross as a people with little history of navigation, or even a lot of it. Scandinavia to Iceland is 2/3rds that distance and Iceland was only colonised in the 9th century, by a reasonably maritime culture (mid-era norse).
Indigenous Australians never reached New Caledonia either even though it’s much closer to Australia (~1200km), as far as I know the earliest arrivals were circa 1500~1000BCE at the earliest and from the other side (the Lapita reached New Caledonia from through).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Sydney_to_Hobart_Yacht_...
NZ, Easter Island, and Hawaii are most recent.
They mention immigration towards the end - it's pretty impressive the speed and scale at which the population is changing towards much more asian. There was a census this year (results to be released in 2024) so pretty curious about the numbers.
When watching reaction videos to the country's first Costco, I was amazed at how many Asians a) appeared in the videos, and b) created the videos.
Most peoples have been displaced at some point. My Brythonic ancestors, if I have any, had their land settled by the Romans, the Danes and the Saxons all in the space of ~500 years.
I'm not an expert, some facts may be wrong, but it's something I have wondered about.
No, the length of time doesn't matter. The guilt is appropriate due to the violence and inhumanity in the way the displacement was carried out (even if that was the norm at the time), and the continued oppression and erasure that occured.
That's only part of the picture, though. Some bad things happened, but as a consequence, some arguably much worse outcomes were avoided.
The sole reason that slavery and cannibalism do not exist in New Zealand today is precisely because it was colonized. The British outlawed those things (and brought Christianity, which also had an impact).
The "displacement" wasn't extensive, either. The link says the "population may have reached 100,000" prior to colonization, in a nation of 100,000 square miles. Much of it, particularly in the south, was never occupied or controlled, the terrain was neither hospitable nor accessible until colonization brought roads. Now that area is highly productive and exports from there pay for hospitals and schools.
It's also basically unfathomable that if the British hadn't colonized NZ, it would have been totally left to its own devices to develop. Another, less friendly colonizer may have come. What if it were, say, Belgium?
It gets a little tiresome to hear one side of the argument for decades on end, while people fear ostracism for even thinking of mentioning the other half of history.
Yes there were tragedies, and they went on for a very long time. Land sold by people who did not own it, children forbidden to speak their own language, fisheries robbed, an infinite list of terrible things. However, a great number of other terrible things ended. Why can we only discuss half of that?
Should it not infuriate one and all for some conman to proclaim to the media a "Maori worldview". Nobody ever comes on TV and asserts that all Pakeha share a worldview or that they should. Politicians and pundits put words in the mouths of others and lie and romanticize a past that never existed while literacy declines and moldy homes grow more expensive.
Rawiri Waititi (of The Maori Party, which is shamefully named considering most Maori vote Labour) was on twitter the day a Maori man died talking about how that man was wrong for not subscribing to Waititi's particular imagination of what a "Maori foreign policy" is and engaging in Russian apologia. (see https://www.facebook.com/RawiriWaititiMP/posts/i-hope-this-i... )
We preach the tikanga and the kaupapa and pretend that all Maori must necessarily believe those are the right way, a historical absolute that has gone unchanged since time immemorial and was corrupted only when the British arrived. Yet we abandoned slavery, cannibalism, feudal hierarchy, and reserving a large portion of education for men only.
We're the first nation to give women the right to vote, and yet it's questioned whether it's right for the prime minister to be allowed to speak on the marae simply because she's a woman, but hey, the tikanga, the evil Europeans, if only we'd stuck with slavery everything would all be better...
We're losing the unity we used to have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Manners_Street and it seems like we're slow-motion diving headlong into an unequal system of laws and government in the name of atoning for the sins of those long dead, while not mentioning all the halted evil that democracy and the rule of law stopped.
Our dishonesty will probably damn us to iniquity.
I'll be fine, but I worry about the rest of the people here and the opportunities they'll lose by forsaking modernity.
I agree with you on this, at least. The length of time doesn't matter.
I would argue that the only sensible reason for a feeling of guilt is actus reus. I didn't participate in colonisation, I don't feel guilty that my ancestors did, and I'm yet to hear a clear argument for why I should.
It does seem logical to feel guilty if you benefit from the displacement of existing societies to their disadvantage, are aware of that benefit, and don't work to correct it.
I'd also suspect that the violence and inhumanity inflicted during colonisation are, as far as the "how guilty should descendents of colonisers feel" calculation goes, irrelevant. The thing that many of us are personally responsible for and should feel guilty about is shutting our eyes, and not doing enough to correct the inequity that still exists today.
This is what I meant by the "continued oppression", so we agree with each other. We agree with each other.
While the way 1700s British acted would not meet modern British standards, it's a hell of a lot closer to them than Maori behavior and values of the same time period. In the mid-1800s some Maori invaded the Chatham Islands and enslaved, killed, raped, and ate the population (called the Moriori). Here's a quote from Wikipedia:
A Moriori survivor recalled : "[The Māori] commenced to kill us like sheep.... [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed – men, women and children indiscriminately." A Māori conqueror explained, "We took possession... in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped....."[38] The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days.[34]
If you're interested in learning more you could read some ethnographies of modern-day (or close to modern day) primitive peoples. The Yanomamö work thinks a lot about violence because people (the antrhopology community) couldn't even believe how violent they are. The other way to go about it is to think about the development of morality in humans (like moral universals). One theory goes small gods who are fallible and many --> big gods who always watch and are few --> the kind of normative morality software you have installed right now, which doesn't depend on gods.
Anthropology is divided in two: "biological" anthropologists take evolution and biology seriously and see themselves as scientists, while other types (most notably "cultural") are much within the tradition of postmodernism, and don't aspire to do science (or only pretend to). These second kind aren't concerned much with communicating objective truth (because they don't believe in that); their politics informs their work to a great extent on average.
I don't know which kind Salmond is since I don't know her work, but it's entirely possible to collect all first-hand accounts from pre-$SOME_YEAR and search them for references to how children were treated. Then, assign each one a score based on some measure of how well the children were treated (note: "how well" is in direct reference to the moral system that modern Westerners have, and Salmon takes the same stance without mention in the article). Look at your data. This'll tell you how the people writing thought of it. You should probably also model year of writing and what that means for the writer's baseline, at minimum.
Either way it's interesting. Thanks for sharing!
If instead you actually care about the experiences of the human beings who were and are involved... Then no it doesn't make a single bit of difference.
> there is no guarantee that current descendants would be the ones actually owning the lands today.
Say what now?
Much the same time as John D. Rockefeller was born the Treaty of Waitangi was "signed" in 1840 (there's some conflict over versions and translations and genuine evidence some people signed an English language version after being shown another version in their own language etc.) and birth records and family histories from then until now are pretty solid.
Again, why should anyone respect the legal agreements about the Rockefeller trust if no one can be bothered to respect the agreements made in the Treaty of Waitangi?
That's the problem with collective ownership - nobody and everybody "owns" the land, and you can say they still own it the same if they still live in New Zealand. And, based on my very limited understanding of their history, they themselves couldn't ensure any sort of ownership given that land changed hands based on frequent warfare and conquest initiated by their chieftains.
About the Rockefeller foundation... You can check the laws that govern the continuation of his property, they are laws that apply to everybody and are codified in books of law.
But also, while I agree that you shouldn't feel guilty or responsible for the actions of your ancestors, if those ancestors put in place a system of inequality, and some of that inequality persists to this day, which you benefit from while the descendants of those oppressed are still suffering from, don't you think that's at least worth acknowledging? And maybe considering that those who are still suffering because of an unresolved systemic marginalisation don't deserve to?
It would be impossible to measure how much the descendant in question benefitted from that or continues to.
One might acknowledge that one's ancestors were participants in systems of oppression without judgement...I'll concede to that.
Outside of that, there's just the status quo and "natural causes" (immigration, deaths/births etc). Life goes on.