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Comment by stkdump | Hacker News Reader

No word on price. When Raspberry Pi first launched, this was the prime feature of the thing. Can we expect same price as the Raspberry Pi 4? (at the respective RAM level)

Edit: found it here: https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/introducing-raspberry-pi-5/

So the 4 GB model is 60$, which is 5$ more than the 4 GB model of the Raspberry 4 when that was launched: https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/raspberry-pi-4-on-sale-now-... . I guess that is fair, especially with inflation nowadays. So they stay true to the idea of making this available for cheap.

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> I guess that is fair, especially with inflation nowadays.

The accumulated inflation in the US since June 2019 is c. 17%.[1] This means US$ 55 in June 2019 is "worth" c. US$ 64.35 today. So it seems that you get a 4GB Raspi 5 for c. 7.25% less today.

The "US Real Average Hourly Earnings" have increase by ca. 22% in the same period, from US$ 27.75 to US$ 33.82.[2] So an average person needs to work c. 12% less to buy a 4GB Raspi 5 today.

However, I think the issue is more complicated: There is inherent deflation in electronics, which is included in the inflation rate. you can observe it when looking at the current price of a 4GB Raspi 4 at Amazone, which is c. US$ 67. So if the introductory price for a Rapsi 5 is really going to be US$ 60, you get something better for more than 10% less now.

[1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-infl...

[2] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/realer_07112019.ht... and https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t19.htm

Please stop using “average” for wage comparisons. It’s an utterly useless metric for showing if wages are moving or not.

If you must use average, then you should remove the top 5% from the average.

> If you must use average, then you should remove the top 5% from the average.

5% is too arbitrary, just use the median.

Given outliers in a skewed dataset, wouldn't median be a worse description than mean without outliers?

https://openstax.org/books/statistics/pages/2-6-skewness-and...

I think the median works better in this situation because the huge population means that both the outliers and the skewness have much less effect than they do on the mean. The problem with using the mean “without outliers” is that you have to make arbitrary decisions about what data to exclude as an outlier, unlike with the median.

The answer is always "it depends", which is exactly why I prefer the median in most cases. Once you choose to use the median, there are no more choices/degrees of freedom - it's just the median. On the other hand, "mean without outliers" requires you to make a subsequent value judgement on what exactly is an "outlier".

> "mean without outliers" requires you to make a subsequent value judgement

Do you think that comparison of outliers to interquartile range is not a relatively objective method of determining outliers?

The interquartile range is a number that indicates the spread of the middle half, or the middle 50 percent of the data. It is the difference between the third quartile (Q3) and the first quartile (Q1) . . . The IQR can help to determine potential outliers. A value is suspected to be a potential outlier if it is less than 1.5 × IQR below the first quartile or more than 1.5 × IQR above the third quartile. Potential outliers always require further investigation.

https://openstax.org/books/statistics/pages/2-3-measures-of-...

5% is not arbitrary. It is removing massively skewing outliers who also see a massive growth outlier compared to everyone else.

Looking at wage movement as slices of where one falls gives a clearer picture.

Additionally, the reason it doesn’t make sense to remove low wage outliers while removing high wage outliers for average is because the median wage is closer to low wage outliers than it is to high wage outliers.

For example, if you take the median and then +- for your dataset (if median is 48,000, then use 0 thru 96,000), you’ll be removing more than just the top 5%, and yet, this also gives a far far far better picture of the dire economic position and what is happening with real wage movement.

It's arbitrary because why not 4% or 6%. 5 just happens to be a pleasant number but there's nothing special about it in an economic sense.

Why would you cut off a fixed percentage rather than use a standard deviation range?

Because wages are non-Gaussian, standard deviation doesn't mean anything in this context.

Interesting. Most income graphs I've seen appear to be normally distributed -- could you explain what would cause them not to be, or provide any examples that demonstrate non-Gaussian distributions?

But if wages are non-Gaussian, how would trimming the top and bottom 5% off of your sample be any better than using standard deviation ranges to control for outliers? The assumption that outliers are to be found on the top and bottom of your range is one that seems to apply to Gaussian distributions, and doesn't necessarily hold for others, regardless of whether you are using fixed percentage values or standard deviation thresholds. For example, in a bimodal distribution, outliers might be found in the center.

median is a type of average. the parent commenter means the mean

Is this correct? I know no definition where median can be interpreted as an average.

It's frequently used in when talking about incomes specifically. [0]

> For example, the average personal income is often given as the median—the number below which are 50% of personal incomes and above which are 50% of personal incomes—because the mean would be higher by including personal incomes from a few billionaires. For this reason, it is recommended to avoid using the word "average" when discussing measures of central tendency and specifically specify which type of measure of average is being used.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

The median minimizes the L1 norm and the mean minimizes the L2 norm. (Of the error made between the estimator and the data roughly speaking.)

In this sense yes, median is some kind of average.

But then it is insensitive to the outliners, which is the reason it is suggested above.

e.g. M-w.com:

> 1 a > : a single value (such as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values

Average isn't well defined-- if you have to guess, people probably intend "arithmetic mean" when they say it. But if you're using it in the sense of a single number that represents the typical value of a dataset, you may want the median, mode, or midrange, or even a geometric or harmonic mean depending upon circumstance.

So it's best to use that term. And it's best to be charitable to not jump on people saying "average" when the median might be the best measure of central tendency for a task.

HN tangent threads are the best.

Hopefully no one nitpicks my use of "tangent" on a digression of an aside...

"Real Average Hourly Earnings" is already an adjusted metric to make sure that it's not skewed to the top earners (hence why it's called "Real Average" and not just "Average"). In the linked post you'll note the following explanation of what "Real Hourly Average Earnings" means: "Data relate[d] to production employees in mining and logging and manufacturing, construction employees in construction, and nonsupervisory employees in the service-providing industries," which apparently covers roughly 80% of private sector jobs in the US.

You are right that this metric excludes things like capital gains income, and covers just hourly earnings.

“Real”, however, refers to it being inflation adjusted, not an exclusion of high earners (who are excluded anyway because of the hourly earnings metric).

Amazon is not a good place to get prices from for a comparison. All the enshittification has ruined the prices. As it forces prices up outside Amazon too even outside prices are not useful. To do a proper comparison that doesn't include changes forced by Amazon IMO you need to look at non-US non-Amazon non-Amazon-sellers prices and work with those. Quite annoying really.

I've seen the word "enshittification" three times in three days now, and it is already rubbing my last nerve raw.

we make fun of business jargon and buzzword fads, and we do it just as much as anyone else, and it sickens me.

Why does it sicken you?

We make fun of business jargon because it’s an attempt to imbue authority where it isn’t due. “Enshittification” is… not that.

If you were on HN a decade ago, you would have seen "pivot" all over the place. Times change, but we are still human (mostly) and it seems to be part of who we are to mold language to fit our needs and circumstances.

Take "bipping," a word I had never seen before a month ago, but that is now all over the place. (At least in some communities in the Bay Area; I guess all the car break-ins helped it's adoption).

Never heard of that, and when I do I will gleefully mock whoever is using it.

It’s almost as if the English language adapts over time. I’m sure in the 1580s when the word “Gleeful” was seemingly introduced people felt weird about it too, heh.

That's a convenient excuse for the lazy and ignorant.

How so? The vast majority of the English language we use today, that’s “formal,” has been the evolution of what was “slang” back then. I don’t understand your argument here..

It'll always be a subjective argument. On one side you can have rigid formalists who hate any change. On the other there's no rules at all.

I'm not at those extremes. I consider the origin of the word. A few years ago I started seeing "griefer," and it quickly became apparent that these people didn't know there was already a word for that: spoilsport. It's those instances that I bitch about, because it reflects ignorance and an unnecessary obfuscation of the language.

I'm down with adding words, including slang, that didn't have an equivalent. One example of foreign origin, "bokeh," really serves a purpose: to describe the aesthetic quality of blurriness. Cool.

This is how I feel about the word "literally". I just assume at this point it's from an emotional person probably over indulging in politics.

I feel this way about “jargon” and “buzzword”. If you couldn’t clearly explain something to Chaucer just don’t post it on the internet.

It is a pretty stupid word, I agree. The replies are correct, English changes over time, but I still get to think it's stupid regardless.

Your exhaustion with the word mirrors my exhaustion with the practice, but ending use of the word will not quash the creeping shit

Worth mentioning Raspberry Pis are designed, and in most cases built and assembled, in the UK.

> The accumulated inflation in the US since June 2019 is c. 17%.[1] This means US$ 55 in June 2019 is "worth" c. US$ 64.35 today. So it seems that you get a 4GB Raspi 5 for c. 7.25% less today.

Included in that 17% figure is the price increase for e.g. corn, rent and steaks.

Why should the change in price of either of these things be relevant to the price of a Raspberry Pi?

How else would you define how much a dollar is?

That my point: you can’t define how much a dollar is worth in dollars because it’s a circular definition.

You can, of course, calculate the change in price over time of a specific basket of goods (rent, steaks, corn). But there’s no reason this is connected in any way to the change in price of an entirely different basket of goods (Raspberry Pi’s).

In other words, if you try to define how much the value of a dollar has changed over time, you’ll get a different answer depending on the basket of goods you choose. So the change is clearly not inherent to the dollar.

My gripe is that the original Pi cost $35 at launch and while they have made a better Pi...They have not made a Pi at that price ever again, even accounting for Inflation. Furthermore, increased power consumption and features have added big price jumps to the required Accessories. Now you need miniHDMI adapters rather than more common HDMI, you need cooling, you need more expensive power adapters. a fully set up Pi 1 was simple USB, SD, and HDMI All possible in a $50 budget or less if you had some stuff. Now you are $90 in to run it.

Do the modern Pi Zeros not compete with the original Pi at a stupid low price?

Not really, the small size adds the need for all kinds of adapters to have the same functionality.

No need for the wifi and bt dongles anymore, are they are integrated in the Zero 2 W. You can connect keyboard and mouse either via bt or via a single usb otg dongle to connect a wireless keyboard/mouse set or a keyboard with integrated usb hub. In my opinion this is superior to the original B. And far superior to the original A anyway, while still being cheaper. Remember even the original B had just two USB ports, so in practice you needed an extra hub almost always, because of missing functionality that is now integrated.

The Pi Zero 1 performance is pretty bad and it doesn't support 64bit OSes (so no Ubuntu). The Pi Zero 2 looks pretty decent for the price, performance should be ok-ish and it'll run Ubuntu... if you could actually get one.

It depends on the use case. I have several I put around the house with sensors for IoT stuff. ESP32/8266 (and newer) devices would probably be less expensive since they don't need an SD card but are more work to program. The Zero has a full OS with dev tools built in. But for running a desktop, they're not so good.

They're not as cheap any more at $15US for the Zero W. I miss the days when Microcenter had them on sale for $3.14US on Pi day. They did recently have them priced at $10 to celebrate the grand opening of a new store.

Raspberry Pi 4 1GB available to buy for $35 https://chicagodist.com/collections/raspberry-pi/products/ra...

I don't see how this is true. $35 in 2012 is roughly $47 today. You can get a pi zero 2 kit today including the adapters, case, and PSU, for $49.95. Just the PSU, which the original didn't come with, is worth more than the $3 difference.

Besides, both the pi 3 and the pi 4 were $35 at launch, so they were actually beating inflation when they were launched.

Apple showed them that an ARM desktop is totally possible. And also that making the pi 2x or 3x times faster would make a great arm linux desktop.

It's more like they're expanding their top line.

$60 for the model with 4GB of RAM and $80 for 8GB.

It's mentioned in Eben Upton's blog post (linked from the announcement):

https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/introducing-raspberry-pi-5/

Sure, if you want the raw board and nothing else. I spent $100 for a starter kit that had an enclosure and some heat sinks. It came with a controller for a retropi installation too which was a nice touch.

Not to mention it now requires a new PSU. Before you could use your standard $5 (android) phone charger at (5W), then you had to buy a 15W one and now a 27W.

To whoever thinks pi's are cheap, you can get more functionality out of a used laptop for less money, but probably worse specs and probably x86.

But, you really only need the 27W supply if you need to pump a lot of power through the USB ports. It'll run just fine (even using less power) on the 15W unit with more modest loads.

The standard charger is 2.5W, not 5W, and RPi3 will happily run from that, for RPi4 2.5W is somewhat marginal, but it will still work. I suspect that RPi5 is going to be somewhere around 3W (non-PD USB3).

The official RPi specs intentionally overblow the power consumption in order to provide an buffer for powering whatever ridiculous stuff people may hang off the USB ports.

Then the other issue is that all RPis need somewhat tighter voltage tolerance than what is in USB specification. So it is perfectly possible that a cable between the power supply and RPi is compliant, but has too large series resistance on power lines for RPi. And well, powering RPi from random aliexpress-grade “Android chargers” is completely another bad idea.

The old standard Pi PSUs output up to 2.5 amps (not watts), which at 5V gives you up to 12.5W.

Older boards with simpler workloads could usually manage at 1A (5W) but it was always preferred to have at least 2A (10W) to work with.

I meant “standard USB charger” from your pile of random chargers, not the one that RPi Foundation sells. Such a thing hopefully provides the 500mA, that the USB2 port is supposed to deliver.

Engadget has the price at $60 for 4gb and $80 for 8gb.

https://www.engadget.com/the-raspberry-pi-5-uses-the-company...

The value proposition is there for me. I bought a "BMAX B1 Plus" for about 70$ including shipping from AliExpress. It's as small as 2 or 3 CD cases stacked together. It is a fully fledged PC that comes with windows 10 (no support for windows 11 but LinuxMint and other distro work well too), an hdmi cable, and a clever mounting bracket to attach it to the back of a monitor. It is passively cooled, pulls about 4 Watts. Biggest downside is the power supply with a cylindar connector. I use it solely to connect to my main PC using RustDesk and it is great for that.

> No word on price.

They link to multiple regional reseller sites [0], where prices are available. I see €73.90 (€60.08 pre-tax) for the 4GB version and €97.50 (€79.27 pre-tax) for 8GB in Poland.

[0] https://www.raspberrypi.com/resellers/

Raspberry Pi 5 4GB - US$60.00 (EAN 5056561803319)

Raspberry Pi 5 8GB - US$80.00 (EAN 5056561803326)

Cheaper to buy in the US than the UK.

We're not called Treasure Island for nothing.

True, it's called Treasure Island because of all the stolen treasure it holds.. but jokes aside (shouldn't be a joke) i'm going to have a friend pick up one for me in UK and send it over to ZA where pricing is so so much worse.

Why do people in text attempt to joke, then pull back on the joke, making it not a joke and simply wasting time with useless banter?

For people like me who enjoy only, and exactly, that.

Presumably due to higher taxes on sold goods in the UK?

Also just that US sales prices are pre-tax. In states with sales tax you will be paying more.

As is tradition.

It's exactly the same before tax: £59.30 GBP incl VAT ~= £49.42 GBP excl VAT ~= $60.29 USD

„ PCIe 2.0 x1 interface for fast peripherals“

I wanna see somebody hook up a GeForce card over to that 1x pci express. Play some Crysis using Box86.

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