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Comment by caskstrength | Hacker News Reader

And I am perpetually baffled by people crying "Steve Jobs phone open when???!!1" in every such thread, so let me explain in clear terms that even most obtuse people could understand: I spent enough time removing crap like MacKeeper from my GFs/mothers MacBooks and really _not_ looking forward to having to do the same on their iPhones. No, they don't need "freedom" to be tricked into installing crapware on their devices same way as I don't need "freedom" to cut my face with an open razor. _Real_ cool haxxors like you (as opossed to "so-called hackers") can buy an Android device and install whatever software they want like I did.

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> buy an Android device and install whatever software they want like I did

Good luck with that. Hardware remote attestation will fail, outing you to the corporations as someone who "tampered" with the device. You'll be refused service based on that alone, from frivolous content consumption to vital banking services.

What does it have to do with forcing Apple to allow installing iOS software outside of their approved appstore? Manually installed FF from hypothetical non-Apple store will somehow magically pass remote attestation on iOS or what?

It has everything to do with it. Computing freedom is paramount. We should be able to install whatever software we like on our machines. Therefore it follows that corporations shouldn't be able to discriminate against us for doing so.

Things like remote attestation should be illegal.

So it is not related at all either to the article or my previous comment? Okay...

Your comment was essentially "but you can exercise your freedom if you want to". I said they will discriminate against you for exercising your freedom, robbing you of choice. "Whatever software you want", provided they belong in the set of software approved by Google or Apple.

If you still don't see how it's related, I don't know what else to say.

I'm pretty sure I have multiple apps installed on my phone that weren't approved by either Google or Apple.

Then for your sake I hope they don't find out about those apps. It is their device, after all. They don't like it when you do things they didn't approve of. Their methods grow ever more sophisticated. Hardware cryptography is only the latest innovation.

> No, they don't need "freedom" to be tricked into installing crapware on their devices same way as I don't need "freedom" to cut my face with an open razor

But guess what, in the real world you do have the freedom to cut your face with an open razor. Still, you don't see everyone using one (unless they know what they're doing), they rather use a safe razor - they have the sensibility.

I find it demeaning that we "hackers" assume that a certain set of people will never learn about safety when it comes to computing. They can (they did with the razor), but they certainly won't when we give up on them.

You conveniently skipped part of my comment where I suggested that people who want to install software from outside of corporate app stores are free to vote with their money and buy a phone that allows that? I just want to be free to continue buying safe razors and locked devices for use-cases I deem beneficial.

Yeah, just buy a phone that doesn't allow you to run the messaging services you need to communicate with your family and business contacts. Just buy a phone you can't run your banking app on because they only support locked down platforms. The freedom of choice is astounding.

I'm pretty sure my Android phone allows me to communicate with my family and local business contacts. Banking apps also work fine on it. And I even installed bunch of coolhaxxor software like WiFi scanner or a browser with real ad blocker from third-party app store!

Huh? Give it some time then. My banking app refuses to run if I so much as enable developer mode. WhatsApp will permanently ban your number if you use an alternative client. I have access to neither if I choose to run postmarketOS.

How will any of these issues be solved by forcing Apple to allow side-loading?

It's a necessary step. We cannot solve those issues and allow Apple to own the machine. First we must acquire the keys. Then we fight them when they discriminate against us for using them.

Um, you're making the wrong comparison. Apple can just offer a "locked" version of iPhone if you want that. You could buy a unlocked one for you, and a locked one for $whoever. iOS vs Android should not a safe vs unsafe argument, it should be a Gillette razor vs Philips razor argument.

Also, I don't think the only merit that iPhone brings is this so-called safety, it is also a very well engineered device. I'd like to buy one but the only thing that has held me back is how closed the ecosystem is. If the EU is able to force Apple to fix that, I might finally buy an iPhone for the first time :)

> Um, you're making the wrong comparison. Apple can just offer a "locked" version of iPhone if you want that. You could buy a unlocked one for you, and a locked one for $whoever. iOS vs Android should not a safe vs unsafe argument, it should be a Gillette razor vs Philips razor argument.

Yes, that would be great, but I don't see how it could happen with current EU laws.

> No, they don't need "freedom" to be tricked into installing crapware on their devices same way as I don't need "freedom" to cut my face with an open razor.

Are you suggesting we ban razors for public safety then ?

You can buy both open razors and phones that allow side-loading right now and I suggest to keep it that way.

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