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Comment by pedalpete | Hacker News Reader

Does anyone else have no idea what macOS version is which? Which came first? Is there some hidden naming protocol that I just don't grasp?

I've only started using a mac part-time while I've been developing an iOS app over the past few weeks, and I keep seeing different names for the OS version. I have no idea what version I'm on, or if Big Sur came before Sierra, or what. I know I could look it up, but it seems that in the name of good user-experience, I shouldn't need to.

You'd think they'd at a minimum say "people aren't going to be able to figure out which is which, so let's go in alphabetical order with our naming.

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Yeah, at this point I wish they'd just use numbers like iOS.

So we're at iOS 17 and macOS 14.

Because honestly I stopped caring about keeping track of the names long ago. It's cute if you care, they can still put it in the About window for the sake of tradition, but it would be a lot more helpful if it were just referred to as macOS 14 in the press and documentation.

It says the <Name> <Version> in the "About This Mac" Apple menu item. In this case, it will be Sonoma 14.0.

Historically versioning is weird due to the integration of NextSTEP after Job's return to the company. First it was versioned up to 9, then the NextSTEP integration was 10, then subsequent major releases were minor bumps (ie 10.1, 10.2) as OSX was a brand unto itself until 11 which rebranded to MacOS and full versions were used again. So Sonoma is the 14th release from the NextSTEP integration. I think referring to them by names eased the confusion some.

This gives a good rundown:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS_version_history

I went to the wikipedia page, which is kinda the point. No other OS requires you too look it up. Even WatchOS and iOS directly use version numbers.

Saying it's due to NextStep integration sounds like a strange defense of this naming strategy (if that was your intention). They have version numbers, but they decide to use the "code name" as a product name.

See also Windows Me, Windows XP, Windows Vista

MacOS versions have a number, which counts up, the same as iOS and WatchOS. "Sonoma" is a cutesy name for "MacOS 14", the same way that "Jammy Jellyfish" is the cutesy name for Ubuntu 22.04.

The version number is shown in the About This Mac page, which is the top menu item in the Apple menu at all times.

At least Ubuntu's names are alphabetical.

Off the top of my head I couldn't tell which was later out of Big Sur, Ventura, Monterey ...

I constantly get Mojave and Monterey mixed up.

And I'm completely lost with Debian releases.

As mentioned in my post the NextSTEP integration - OSX - was a major branding effort for Apple. It was the reason for Job's return to Apple and was seen as the savior of the company. I think Apple wanted something to hang their hats on that lived for many years.

It's weird and clunky, but makes sense in the history of the company as all previous OSes were numbered. Yes, they probably should have moved off that convention earlier, probably by the time the Intel integration had happened at the very least.

Have you been following Windows 10/11 versions? macOS’ naming scheme is a breeze in comparison.

How do you figure? Windows had 7, 8, skipped 9, 10, 11, and now 12 is coming.

Windows thought they'd never do a major update again, and tried to hold on to the 10 label, but then realized that wouldn't work. So 11 is a bit of a branding stumble, but we know, it came after 10.

You are conveniently ignoring any Windows release before 7.

But Windows never used a separate name for minor versions, so there are only 6 exceptions (and hopefully no more). And a half of them are year numbers.

You’re ignoring all yearly updates to Windows 10 and 11, most of them with news features enough that would be a major version if they were on macOS.

I mean[1]:

>As announced in July, the Windows 11 2023 Update (version 23H2) will be released in the fourth quarter of 2023. This new update will have the same servicing branch and code base as Windows 11, version 22H2 and will be cumulative with all the newly announced features. For devices on version 22H2, the 2023 Update will be delivered via a small enablement package (eKB)7. This continues the annual feature update cadence, with new feature updates released in the second half of the calendar year. This new version resets the 24 months of support for Home and Pro editions and 36 months of support for Enterprise and Education editions.

[1] https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2023/09/26/how-t...

> No other OS requires you too look it up.

- Windows 3.1

- Windows 95

- Windows 98

- Windows 98 Second Edition

- Windows 2000

- Windows Me

- Windows XP

- Windows Vista

- Windows 7

- Windows 8

- Windows 10 1507

- Windows 10 2004

- Windows 10 21H2

- Windows 10 22H2

- Windows 11 21H2

- Windows 11 22H2

Compare to

- Mac OS X 10.0 (Cheetah)

- Mac OS X 10.1 (Puma)

- Mac OS X 10.2 (Jaguar)

- Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther)

- Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger)

- Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard)

- Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard)

- Mac OS X 10.7 (Lion)

- Mac OS X 10.8 (Mountain Lion)

- Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks)

- Mac OS X 10.10 (Yosemite)

- Mac OS X 10.11 (El Capitan)

- macOS 10.12 (Sierra)

- macOS 10.13 (High Sierra)

- macOS 10.14 (Mojave)

- macOS 10.15 (Catalina)

- macOS 11 (Big Sur)

- macOS 12 (Monterey)

- macOS 13 (Ventura)

- macOS 14 (Sonoma)

Also,

  Android 1.0
  Android 1.1
  Android Cupcake
  Android Donut
  Android Eclair
  Android Froyo
  Android Gingerbread
  Android Honeycomb
  Android Ice Cream Sandwich
  Android Jelly Bean
  Android KitKat
  Android Lollipop
  Android Marshmallow
  Android Nougat
  Android Oreo
  Android Pie
  Android 10
  Android 11
  Android 12
  Android 12L
  Android 13
  Android 14
  Android 15

Notice how Android clearly was alphabetical, until they realised people weren't getting that (or got sick of coming up with names of sugary foods), and went back to the number system.

Mac has not gone with alphabetical, but seemingly random names related to cats or places in California.

Various projects do the Alphabetical thing. If you're going to have names, it's a great way to do it. OpenStack, Ceph & Ubuntu all do that.

However it's still a challenge. I work with all of those daily and I often think about the project over-all and it's features or bugs in terms of the alphabetical name, but there is also a numerical name and I have to lookup and translate from it - when looking at diagnostic output from customer installs, or git tags, etc. I keep some subset of the translations in my head but not all them :)

Just think of how fast you'll be with a1z26 ciphers!

I could have sworn the dessert names were code names and they did numbered releases too the entire time but they did drop the 1.x numbering for just whole versions.

> No other OS requires you too look it up.

Debian and Ubuntu frequently refer to releases by codename rather than number

Right, how am I supposed to know "buster" is newer than "stretch"? (wait, it is, right?)... I've never understood this approach.

Sonoma is the 21st release of a Mac operating system based on NeXTSTEP. The switch to 11 marked the transition to Apple Silicon. The code names have been used as an alternate name since 10.2 Jaguar as a way at the time to differentiate from and shame Microsoft’s Longhorn (Vista).

1. Mac OS X Public Beta (Kodiak) - 2000

2. Mac OS X 10.0 (Cheetah) - 2001

3. Mac OS X 10.1 (Puma) - 2001

4. Mac OS X 10.2 (Jaguar) - 2002

5. Mac OS X 10.3 (Panther) - 2003

6. Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) - 2005

7. Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) - 2007

8. Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) - 2009

9. Mac OS X 10.7 (Lion) - 2011

10. OS X 10.8 (Mountain Lion) - 2012

11. OS X 10.9 (Mavericks) - 2013

12. OS X 10.10 (Yosemite) - 2014

13. OS X 10.11 (El Capitan) - 2015

14. macOS 10.12 (Sierra) - 2016

15. macOS 10.13 (High Sierra) - 2017

16. macOS 10.14 (Mojave) - 2018

17. macOS 10.15 (Catalina) - 2019

18. macOS 11 (Big Sur) - 2020

19. macOS 12 (Monterey) - 2021

20. macOS 13 (Ventura) - 2022

21. macOS 14 (Sonoma) - 2023

> 4. Mac OS X 10.2 (Jaguar) - 2002

Or “Jagwire”, as Steve Jobs said:

https://youtu.be/nXJsS4B42_Q?t=708

That's how Jaguar is pronounced in American English.

Because of course it is.

I've never heard someone pronounce it that way in my life until I saw the video. Maybe it's a regional thing, but it sounds like the wrong vowel sound at the end to me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/fsseq2/comment/f...

> For fuck's sake, you invented the language, why do you suck at it?

A question for the ages.

Yes, I agree with that post that the USian pronunciation as given there is better than the British one. But Jobs' rendering of the American pronunciation also sounds wrong to me because the final syllable doesn't generally rhyme with 'wire' as I've heard most Americans pronounce the word.

It may be regional. Jobs grew up in Mountain View and I grew up in Santa Clara, just a few miles down the road. My parents and teachers always said something resembling "jag-wire" in pronunciation.

That makes sense to me. Ahr/ire is a pair that gets swapped or blended in other American accents as well, after all! Many Southern accents basically do the same kind of blending but in the other direction.

Is it? I browsed a bunch of YouTube videos this way and no one said it like jagwire:

https://youglish.com/pronounce/jaguar/english/us?

It may be regional, but I was born and raised in Silicon Valley / SF South Bay, like Steve Jobs, and my parents and teachers all said "jagwire." I don't pronounce it that way myself anymore, but that's because if I say it I'm often talking about the car brand, and I know the brits pronounce it differently so I do the same.

Do some google search for "jagwire" and you'll find tons of results about Americans pronouncing it that way.

EDIT: The word comes from a Native American language via Portuguese. I'm not sure about the indigenous phonetics, but the Portuguese pronunciation is closer to "jagwire" than the British pronunciation.

Mac OS X Server version 1.0 was Rhapsody 5.3. It still doesn't make sense even if you know the MacOS System was renamed to OS 8 to kill the clone license.

No, I have no clue. I don't even know my current version (number nor codename). But when I need to check, I click the Apple logo in the top left, "about this mac," note the version number and then search Google for "latest macOS version" (it took a long time to break the habit of typing "OS X").

The name is meaningless. It’s just marketing; every version is named for another location across California. Before that they were named for big cats.

Each version has a number that is sequential though. I think it’s just an effect of sheer quantity. They release a new version every year. It’s hard to keep track.

I wish they’d just get iOS, the iPhone, and macOS or whatever it is called now all the same. Today I should be running iOS 15 on an iPhone 15 talking to macOS 15.

Why? They're different operating systems with different backgrounds.

Because numerical consistency is nice.

(It's already happened before where Windows jumps versions for various reasons, but one is to not sound too far behind other OSes.)

I do wonder the longevity of alphabet-based naming...

It _sort of_ reminds me of a time I spoke to a colleague and said I wanted to try a project (only a couple of years ago) that required Red Hat Linux 5 and he said "oh sure, here's some CDs" and realised, "nope, not RHEL" (to which the response was.. "oh, here be dragons")..

If you loop the alphabet and I reckon you'll inevitably get confusion.

"Hey, Android Juniper has been released" - "Ah cool, I can upgrade from Ice-cream".. "oh no, wait, mine's 27 releases old!".. "No, sorry, it's actually 53 releases old"

At least better than random naming.

> If you loop the alphabet and I reckon you'll inevitably get confusion.

These releases tend to be yearly or half-yearly at most (e.g. android or ubuntu). So a wrap around happens after 13 years at the earliest. Having a 13 year old completely un-upgraded phone (or AR brain worm or whatever we will have in 13 years) wrapping around seems quite unlikely to cause any surprise.

If you have weekly releases or something, then I would see your point.

Yep - I agree - I guess just more generally, for example chrome releases ;)

When there were multiple years between Mac OS releases, it was not as difficult. I also found big cat names easier to remember (perhaps because I’m more familiar with them than California landmarks). I also liked the Leopard/Snow Leopard and Lion/Mountain Lion cadence.

Perhaps I just don’t put as many cycles into following Apple anymore.

These pages help identify your Mac model and the newest compatible operating system it can be upgraded to:

MacBook Pro https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201300

MacBook Air https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201862

iMac/iMac Pro https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201634

Mac Pro https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202888

Mac Studio https://www.apple.com/mac-studio/

Mac Mini https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201894

Usually...

It works like airplanes. Some people see Tomcat and know immediately what it refers to. Others prefer the numeric F-14. I still remember NATO codenames from 40 years ago, without the letter/number. Sidewinder, for example.

I have the issue you describe with Ubuntu and (less so) Debian codenames and also with Android codenames. With Ubuntu though, the number is descriptive, like Russian tanks (T-90 etc), so using it is worth more.

Wait the Tomcat and the F-14 are the same?

Reminds me of getting horribly confused reading War and Peace h til I realized one character had like fifty names.

I think you have to either maintain a map between names and version numbers in your head or dispense with the names entirely.

> in the name of good user-experience, I shouldn't need to.

That ship has long since sailed with Apple, on so many fronts.

Instead of sorting by alphabet there's a pretty good thing called time, so adding the last two digits of the release year would solve the issue

No, I also have no clue, but it's no more annoying than keeping track of which Ubuntu version is called something inane like Jaunty Jackalope.

At least Ubuntu has an LTS version you can use to ignore the names for a few years.

But it's alphabetical, if you see Ignorant Ibex and Jaundiced Jackalope, you know that (after singing the alphabet song to yourself quietly) that II came before JJ.

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