Ask HN: Why don't more middle-class Americans emigrate to Europe?

As an American that has lived in Europe for nearly a decade now, I think you vastly underestimate the cultural differences between the two continents. I think the average middle class American would feel boxed in here, annoyed by the constant bureaucratic action required to get things done, and somewhat confused by the general lack of "can do" attitude.

Moving here requires the ability to be a kind of permanent outsider who nonetheless is reminded by the dominance of his culture on every corner. It's a strange feeling and not one that I think most people are prepared to deal with.

Edit, in case I was unclear: by "dominant," I mean that American culture is everywhere. McDonalds, Starbucks, Hollywood celebrities, Netflix shows, hamburgers, popular music, on and on. European youth culture is probably more influenced by American culture (via the Internet) than any other single source.

Your post is the most on point. The culture is way too different and especially for this community it should be obvious: the risk averse culture, the pessimism, the crabs in a bucket mentality and the relative lack of economic opportunities, especially in IT.

That sounds like Pennsylvania? Naturally there are key cities that you can't get on other continents and for many IT people that's usually San Francisco. But if you aren't actually in one of these key places it's often a matter of imagination that you think the place you are in is similar culturally, etc.

Amish country sure but Philadelphia accepts a level of risk europe wouldn't

I suppose throwing dynamite from helicopters is a choice, but I still see Philadelphia as more of a living with risk place than a place that benefits from intelligent risk taking.

> somewhat confused by the general lack of "can do" attitude

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and this rings so true it hurts. Sometimes requests (for anything from another glass of wine to government bureaucracy with big stakes) are simply met with a shrug and "nope, I can't do that." No solutions, no apology, they just go back to looking at their phone. This is nearly nonexistent in the US.

In general, living in southern Europe it's a big adjustment to a culture where time essentially has no value, or at least is valued way less than in the US. Just wait another 30 minutes, why are you in such a hurry?

It’s strange you write this comment, but then in another acknowledge the US rat race culture and time poverty.

Why are you in such a hurry? Europe is to live slower and enjoy life.

Because it's difficult to unlearn a lifetime of habit :)

I believe in you! Enjoy what you have. Slow down and smell the flowers.

I have 2 stories of the 'no can do' in Europe vs USA.

Was on a business trip to Oslo Norway. Meeting involved a bunch of people, from around Europe. A couple of Finish guys joined my wife and me at a very nice restaurant. Not coat and tie, but definitely a major step up from a USA chain steakhouse. One of the Finns wanted a hamburger, but he was a big boy and was very hungry, it was 7 hours since we had lunch. So he asked that his hamburger be made with 2 patties of beef, not one, happy to pay whatever the price was. Waiter left, came back 15 minutes later and said sorry 'we cannot do that'. Excluding fast food, I cannot think of any place that would sell a hamburger in the USA that would not have accommodated my friend.

2nd event is the UK mobile phone service. At least my experience when you go to a brick and mortar store (not a kiosk), the manager there has the authority to do pretty much anything. Not literally, but they can get a lot accomplished if you need help. In the UK the people at the store do not know, and are not authorized to do anything beyond sell you a phone. And God forbid you want to terminate your service. Hours and hours later.... if you are lucky .... they will let you end your service (assuming contract is fully paid) in 2 months from now.

> I think you vastly underestimate the cultural differences between the two continents.

On the contrary, I think the cultural differences are huge, and lead to an enormous advantage in health and quality of life for Europeans.

As someone who hates bureaucracy, I can certainly see how many Americans would be infuriated by European culture in this area. But you have to balance these issues against enormous American problems like obesity, opioid addiction, suburban sprawl, poor government services, crime, the mental health crisis, racial tension, political polarization, etc.

A lot of these things are just as big of problems in parts of Europe. There are many other problems unique to Europe.

Sorry but I don’t think going somewhere on vacation gives much insight to how it’s actually like living there.

I'm an American and moved from the US to Portugal a year ago, though I still spend a lot of time in the US. Here's what my biggest challenges have been:

- Family and friends are now an 8 hour flight and 6 time zones away. Staying connected is difficult, particularly given American rat race schedules. I don't have children, so this is a challenge but manageable.

- The visa -- among the easiest to get for Americans with no family ties to Europe -- took 5 months and TONS of paperwork. I had to lease an apartment for an entire year in order to APPLY for the visa. In total, it cost about $40k to get set up there. Most middle-class Americans don't have that laying around.

- The language/culture barrier is real, even in a place with lots of English speakers. I'm diligent about attending lessons and studying, but it takes time. Learning the culture is even harder and I quite regularly make a fool of myself in public.

- Above all, I've gained an appreciation for how optimized for convenience life in the US is. I dry my clothes outdoors on a line just like everyone else. This alone is a nonstarter for most Americans I know.

Why did you move there?

Lots of reasons, in no particular order:

- I've wanted to live in Europe for as long as I can remember. I can apply for a Portuguese passport after 5 years of residency, which unlocks the entire continent.

- I'm from Chicago and can no longer handle the 6 months of no sun and debilitating seasonal depression during the winter.

- I'm at the age where I'm no longer invincible health-wise and the US system is a comically expensive dumpster fire. The Portuguese health system has problems, but it is unlikely to literally bankrupt me like in the US.

- The US has had (on average) multiple mass shootings _per day_ this year [0]. Portugal has had _one_ and is one of the safest countries on the planet.

- Cost of living in Portugal (for an American) is low. This allows me to work less and live more.

- I'm a guy and I've never fit in to the dominant American (particularly midwestern) macho culture. Expectations for men are different in Portugal and Europe in general, so I'm much more comfortable.

- US politics. No further comment.

[0] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mass-shootings-days-2023-database-...

Interesting, thank you. How are expectations for men are different in Portugal?

Did you go with D7 visa or golden visa?

D7, because I actually want to live in Portugal. That was before the new DN visa, though. I'm told that anyone with active (ie employment) income needs to apply for the nomad visa.

I'm a middle-class person from the US. I've even had several short stints of living in Europe. I'd love to live in one of the countries there, but being a little bit older now I really don't want to start over again. Making new friends is hard, and it gets harder the older you get. Not to mention family here in the states. I've spent a few holiday seasons alone and it sucks.

To add to your QoL statement I feel as though European countries have a different kind of QoL. Here in the states the material quality of life is high. Things here are cheap compared to the rest of the world. Whereas in say, Germany, the social QoL is higher. People are more taken care of there and overall have less stress. Cities are walk-able, trains can actually take you where you want to go in a reasonable amount of time, a sense of community still exists. I think of lot of people from the US value the type of QoL we have here over what they have in various European countries.

> ...I'm amazed by how healthy and prosperous the average European looks.

Are you sure you're seeing the "average European?" Europe is a pretty big, diverse place. If you're spending most of your time in the wealthier parts of town in a big city, you're going to see a very different Europe than the poor section of a rural village.

1. Family and support systems are here, not Europe.

2. Cost. I do not thing you understand how unfathomably expensive it would be to move from North America to Europe. Heck moving around the States can be extremely expensive already.

3. Unfamiliar culture. The average American is steeped in American Culture and is ignorant of anything elsewhere.

4. No ties to Europe.

5. Desire. Americans are blasted every day about opportunities here. We constantly hear about immigrants coming here but we never hear about opportunities over there. Our news plays into this, as they only cover bad things, so if we hear about Europe it's epically bad.

Good ordering. There's also the entire topic of visa's and right to work in places in EU that may have restrictions on foreigners taking jobs away.

Vacationing to places in EU is fun but you won't see/hear about the large issues the people living there have on a daily basis. You're a tourist doing sight-seeing.

Cost depends on how much you own. A colleague moved here from Canada with two suitcases. Someone else brought an entire container of furniture.

I moved here with 1m³ of stuff sent by road/sea and three suitcases on the plane, but some years later and I somehow own an apartment full of stuff.

Define "middle class Americans"? Hard to give a precise answer otherwise.

A few (other) explanations:

* QoL is hard to be rational about, and is something that (I think) has to be experienced first-hand. European salaries are most probably lower for comparable jobs (they certainly are for high-wage workers) but pack more punch because of better social benefits and, depending on where you live, lower CoL. However it can be hard to convince yourself that 40 k€ in Spain affords you a better QoL than 80k$ in California unless you've experienced both. I mean, 40 is much less than 80, right?

* the "American Dream" is still a big part of the American (and global, for that matter) psyche. I would wager most Americans think the US is a place to emigrate to, not from. I don't know if many middle-class Americans would spontaneously envision emigrating to Europe. This is probably even more true for descendants of recent immigrants: if your family struggled to get to the US, why would you consider leaving?

* Ability to live abroad, in particular mastering a foreign language well enough to live and work in the country

* I'm not sure how well employability travels. You can work as a developer in just about any country but I think this is an exception. A medical diploma does not transfer well between countries (e.g. you probably need to start again as an intern, re-take exams, etc.), neither does a law diploma. More "middle class" jobs will have similar barriers to entry. E.g. if you're a plumber in the US and move to Europe you have to deal with different construction codes, installed base, local habits... Same thing if you're an auto mechanic: different car manufacturers, different regulations, etc.

Americans in HCOL locations have a third option to Europe, and that is the rest of the United States. RoUS provides close to a factor of two cost savings, you speak the language, same level of bureaucracy, close (enough) to family, similar enough culture to be comforting but with enough differences to make it interesting (desert Southwest, Deep South, New England, Florida Keys, Midwest, Appalachia, PNW, Intermountain West, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas…). Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean a drive/cruise away and provide their own long term opportunities. The United States is much more culturally diverse than the few places Europeans choose to visit for extended stays.

The United States offers a political stability that Europe has yet to demonstrate long-term (cherry-picking here, but let’s say over the last 150 years, two modern lifetimes). The comic opera/snuff film of European wars in the 1900s did provide 104366 young Americans with a forced permanent relocation to Europe. Not a positive memory for Americans.

And Americans can develop a community in the United States that achieves many of the charming aspects of European life. Americans have both the freedom and gumption to do that, if they wish. Americans are not limited by land nor resources, intellectual, cultural or otherwise, nor vision.

- Perceptions matter. A lot of Americans think it's best here. Those that say how bad it is here, tend to not be the types that would be qualified for EU visas (i.e, you're not going to move to EU on a skilled worker visa if you're an unskilled, unhappy worker in the US) - Family matters. People leaving family usually emigrate for more money, and US -> EU isn't a more money situation most of the time. - It's not so easy to just emigrate. You need to be highly qualified or have ancestral ties. If you're highly qualified though, you can probably earn better money in the US. For the wealthy, US is subjectively "better".

I think ultimately it's just a matter of opportunity. If people are generally comfortable with their life, why would they move? They will only do it if a fantastic 10/10 opportunity presents itself; there aren't many 10/10 obvious opportunities to emigrate to Europe for.

I'd say impulsivity and asymmetric extra opportunity.

A European can usefully learn English before knowing what they'll use it for, pounce on whatever opportunity arises in the more impulsive US economy, possibly multiple times in different places, make some extra money for some years, and then eventually return home to a lower cost of living. Going the other way requires more planning and more specific goals for no bigger a payoff than can be found domestically, which naturally filters out many people.

Most Americans wouldn't be eligible for a resident visa to move to most European countries (and vice-versa); and when they would the process is long and expensive.

I don't know why people from the US often, even knowing about their own country's strict immigration requirements, assume that they themselves can just pick up and move to any country they want (e.g. Europe, Canada, Australia, etc). 9/10s of the US population aren't in high demand jobs, most countries don't want you.

This. Actually the US has one of the most PERMISSIVE immigration regimes IN THE WORLD. Everywhere is very far to the right of us, including Canada.

Immigration is pretty restricted in many European countries, with things like employment and language requirements. As they should be I suppose; I am not sure these countries want an influx of millions of Americans. Not to mention, there are tax implications for American citizens that make it economically unfeasible.

The tax thing is not something to be underestimated. If you want to keep an American citizenship you have to pay income tax on all the money you make living abroad at the same rate as if you made the money in the US. The doubled tax burden makes it very expensive to legally live abroad without giving up your US citizenship (which many people want to keep for a large number of reasons).

The tax code allows for deducting the income taxed by a foreign country from your US tax obligations but as I understand it's complicated, only certain types of income can be excluded, there are caps on how much income can be ignored, etc. Basically everything from retirement savings to starting a company or changing jobs becomes a big hassle that you definitely need a specialist stateside accountant to help you with.

The US is almost unique in this regard: only Eritrea and North Korea also have similar laws. Most places will only tax money you make when you live in that country.

Many countries have tax treaties with the US. UK, Germany, Ukraine, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Poland, etc.

Here is a complimentary question: why don't Americans living in state X move to state Y whereby state Y would be clearly better for them?

I think it answers most of the original question.

Not answering the original question, but as often seen in these discussions a lot of the debate is revolving around QoL & cost of living comparison.

QoL is hard to measure and subjective to individuals desires/needs/etc.

When it comes to cost of living Ashton did a great job explaining in a detailed example how USA vs Germany on income/expenses/taxes/savings fare with all the short/long term implications. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWJja2U7oCw

As someone who graduated in Germany long time ago, lived and worked in the last 24 years here in the USA/Silicon Valley and visited this summer Europe for 2 months it also made me realize how much my perspective has changed to the high QoL in Europe. I am torn if I should go back or not. For me easy it is an easy move to make, but a tough choice to decide on.

I like how not one of your considerations is family and familial support. I can’t move because I can’t abandon my child, and if I could somehow take my kid with me (legally, but that’s not happening since other parent would never give up her rights), I would arrive with no community or family to support me, emotionally, as a parent.

As someone who immigrated to the US, the US has a standard of living that is "different" than it is in the EU. It's not better or worse than the EU, just different.

It's not big stuff but rather a combination of a bunch of small stuff.

- Houses are typically older, smaller and most scrunched together. This might be normal for someone in Europe but it's jarring for an American who expects a house with a lawn and white picket fence.

- The cars are typically smaller, again not something that's objectively better or worse but different. American's are used to big cars and the compact car culture in the EU is also jarring.

These are just two examples but it comes down to just about everything. I am not saying the standard of living in the US is better than it is in the EU, it's just different, and that difference is why most Americans will never move to the EU.

Europa is kinda big. It would help us to point out where you saw this average European citizen. (was it in the Swedish Capital or in the south of Italy in Sardinia?).

In my experience, Americans are often conditioned to believe that they are living in the best country in the world, and that all other countries are inferior and not safe. They were also kept busy by their system and most don't even have their passports.

The not safe one is ironic given how staggeringly high gun deaths are in the us.

I never intended to grow old in the states, emigrating eventually, but as I near that benchmark... I grow skeptical.

I have no idea where to start - fear the costs, bureaucracy, and so on. It surely depends on where you want to go... and changing your mind is likely incredibly prohibitive.

Anyway, more probably don't do it because it's nebulous.

Something to consider, too - six years ago I was upper-middle class, now I'm just hanging in there with inflation. External pressures put one in survival mode

How did you go from upper middle class to just hanging in there, considering it sounds like you're close to retirement? Lose all your money in a startup? Health issues? In my mind, upper middle class has substantial real estate, a plump 401k, and plenty of savings.

Perhaps my pride inflated the self-assessment :)

I'm nowhere near that established but also relatively young (mid-30s). Retirement is a solid 20 years away or something, but I'd like to sort a lot of this out beforehand.

My sole income is on the higher-than-average side, but not quite on the level of FAANG+benefits; around 170k. It's hard to say exactly, it may vary 10% with some share kickbacks.

The cost of things has generally been a squeeze; renting, running costs, etc.

It's likely overstated; I more went from lavish not-caring to now having to mind my footing. No change in income or expenditures aside from their cost :/ Inflation has outpaced every raise.

The growth of my savings has slowed considerably... I'd like to make my first steps into real estate! Really just as a place to live, not as income. I really need to leave this city; my rent has nearly doubled.

ah, Ok, I see what you mean. Maybe not quite as dramatic of a fall as I was envisioning. Yes if you're renting, that once fat salary can seem just passable.

I lucked out by buying when I did, and I was able to do well by renting out an extra room for a while until my income helped me be able to 'afford' the place I was in.

In my family it's already happening. I am one of three siblings all of us late 20s early 30s, grew up middle class in SoCal. My brother went to college in Germany because it was more affordable than attending a 4 year university in our home state. He's been in Germany now for eight years. He graduated, got a job, got married. He and his wife are never coming back. His POV is that the things he needs to live (healthcare, shelter) and the things he needs to work and have a family life (childcare, mat/pat leave, safe and timely transit to jobs, more job security) are affordable/attainable whereas those things are expensive and increasingly out of reach in the USA. He jokes that our TVs and material goods are cheaper, but you can't live in a TV.

My sister and I have both weighed moving to Europe. The cut in paper salary vs. cost of living seems to be heavily in Europe's favor once you have 2-3 kids. When we get to that point, we may make the move too.

We have an advantage that my sister and I received Italian citizenship through a great grandmother in 2020, and my brother received his Italian citizenship this year so moving and staying in Europe long-term will be simpler in that respect for us.

"Quality of life" is relative, some people feel being isolated from family/established friends by being several time zones away to be a negative. Especially if a family with school aged kids are involved.

I would guess the biggest factor is cultural: the US was always viewed as the place to immigrate to if you wanted a "good life", not emigrate from. That includes the language issue - other languages were rarely encouraged since there was enough geographic diversity and opportunity that it was't necessary, people came here and learned English, not the other way around. Those US citizens that emigrated were assumed to leave because they wanted to experience a foreign culture, not necessarily because of quality of life issues.

Most people just don't see it as an option because they don't know anyone who has emigrated.

Why don't you move to Europe permanently - maybe that will help answer your question?

You make less money and pay more taxes. It’s a slightly better quality of life but not that much in my experience. Although public healthcare is pretty darn cool.

Anyways it’s not black and white even for me, and visas aren’t that easy to get.

Less taxes? Are you sure?

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2019...

Idk what a cumpolsory payment involves, but for taxes yes I’m 100% sure I’m paying more in the UK than I did in the US.

It means including premiums and other things that you would get for your tax in most European countries.

I'd guess that most of the middle class have not been on a recent vacation to Europe, if they ever have.

Vacation is different than than permanently living there. In many ways there are more freedoms in the US, easier to own property, lower taxes, better economic outlook. Of course all of this depends on which county you're talking about since they are vastly different.

Immigration requirements are often strictest in the best areas, and often exclude those who would most benefit from stronger social support systems.

Agree with the "not been on vacation recently". Things have been gradually backsliding in the US, and when the change is gradual it's easier to miss. There will be a bunch of downvotes on this post, along with "then get outta here" replies, but really: just travel outside of the US and see for yourself.

Also, there is a predominant culture in the US where everyone must always think it is the best country in the world at everything, and if you question this narrative in any area you are somehow a traitor. Shaking this off requires quite a shift in perspective.

Lastly, the taxes thing is mostly false. Sit down and actually do the math. You will be likely be surprised. For one, California taxes are higher than in most of Canada (not Europe, but I have lived in both places). Do your own comparison and don't assume.

But California income tax (14%) is three times what it is in ~95% of states (5%). Seems kind of cherry pickish to call California out specifically for this.

Can you show some metrics on that? Seems like any way you compare it, taxes are higher in other ODEC countries - effective individual rates, overall percent GDP, etc.

A big factor is language. Only the UK is English speaking and it's extremely difficult to get a job if you don't know the native language. It'srare for a Dutch, Swedish, French, or Italian company to hire someone that doesn't speak the native language. All communications (written and verbal) will be in the native language.

Europe is huge and diverse - where are you visiting? I suspect East/Central Europe and the Balkans could make for decent QoL for Americans, especially in regard to property prices (West Europe is getting priced out), but I'd like to know more.

From anecdotal cases here in Sweden I can say that adjusting to a more "socialist" way of life is not always easy. Few American colleagues, all young healthy and unmarried, left after a few years because they couldn't handle the high taxes and more expensive prices.

But as other have mentioned this is a very theoretical question. A software engineer will do just fine, like I did, while a restaurant worker might find it harder.