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This was my question coming into comments:

Do schools try to mandate installation on personal devices? This extends beyond school supplied devices? Do they have any way to actually enforce compliance if so?

I would never install any software from the schools on my kids device. Never. That doesn’t mean I don’t surveil her use - I most certainly do, and she has no privacy. But she also needs no secrecy from me, I am her protector but not her manager.

I’ve decided to forgo the public school system for many reasons despite being a huge advocate of public education. It’s become a battle ground of control by bureaucrats and ideologues, with a subtext of a police state and pre-criminalization.

But as such I’d love to hear anecdotal stories since I’m unaware of the experiences folks are having.

> I most certainly do, and she has no privacy

That sounds awful

I’ve used the internet for nearly 40 years, and I know exactly what happens and what I was in danger of myself without someone guiding me. The point isn’t to hover over her, and I don’t monitor everything she does. But I’m aware of what she’s into and what she’s doing. That’s my job as a parent. I’m legally and morally responsible for what she does and what happens to her. That’s the burden of being a parent. The flip side is to allow her to do as pleases as long as it’s not dangerous, and I don’t interfere in her life.

What’s worse are parents who either allow their kids unfettered access to the internet, which is awash in dark patterns designed to warp and exploit children for profit, and predators seeking to exploit children for pleasure. Their kids are being psychologically manipulated to their detriment everywhere.

Likewise, the overbearing parents that control all consumption aren’t great. But worse of all is the parent who allows no access.

My job as I see it with respect to the internet is to teach my daughter how to resist the pervasive manipulation and inoculate her against meme and dark patterns now. Letting her be manipulated without guidance now is a bad idea, and letting her build no facility or competence until she’s an adult is worse.

I’d rather not do this, I agree in some sense, but it’s just not the way the world works and and parenting is often about doing what is necessary even though it’s not your preference. That includes disciplining, etc etc, and doing all the things you thought you never would do as a parent but realize why parents do it when it’s your turn.

I sympathize with your situation, and I appreciate that you're trying to be a cool parent who accepts your daughter unconditionally for who she is, but I wonder if it's even possible to know where the limits are on that, or how much she feels that way. Personally, I grew up in a really supportive family, but I still had a whole lot of hangups as a teenager that meant I didn't always want my parents to see what I was doing or looking into on the internet. Some of those private interests turned into major parts of who I am, and I don't really want to imagine the world where I had to worry about what my parents saw.

Would it have been better if I'd talked these things out with my parents? Maybe, but would I have? Or would I have just self-censored my dreams rather than face that conflict?

I guess maybe as a middle ground, maybe keep watching while she's young but pull back as she gets older?

From my experience, kids with helicopter parents never achieve their true potential in life. Trust your own kids, you'll find that they're more capable than you think.

Trust but verify. The art of parenting is giving them freedom within guardrails. The internet is about as safe as an intellectual wood chipper, very useful but can chew you up. While I would let my kid use a wood chipper, I will definitely supervise and ensure she’s wearing goggles and gloves, no matter how much I trust her.

I’d also note that as a male, I assume, gaming culture and chat culture is a lot safer. For females, surely you’ve noticed it’s not quite the same experience. This is probably the biggest tragedy of online culture, the extreme overt misogyny and aggressive sexualization of any girl that dares let her gender be discovered. Girls are broadly predated upon, and the boys parents never believe Johny could do that until you confront them with the logs. Bullying, sextortion, etc, are endemic and rampant. If you’ve not got direct experience with a young girl using these things I’d withhold judgement until you do.

And honestly it’s a bit hard to take parenting advice on hacker news given by non parents, no offense meant.

This is interesting, I'm surprised you can push back on this. Usually even if it's not legal people will just blindly force the issue because they don't fully understand and can't be told otherwise.

Has anyone attempted to force you to allow your kids to use a school laptop full of spyware?

> Has anyone attempted to force you to allow your kids to use a school laptop full of spyware?

Every year. The back-off point is usually when I ask for a meeting with the superintendent and suggest the school bring their lawyer.

Well you're a hero for fighting back against this stuff. Keep it up.

I remember being in grade school. Kids do weird shit and it's easy for adults to wildly misinterpret their actions resulting in absolutely insane reactions and all hell breaking loose for parents.

All that sounds great, but how do you actually assert those things without your child missing out on their classes?

We got enrolled this year and all the kids apparently get chromebooks with a bunch of software pre-installed. I mentioned to the school I would rather just provide laptops for them, and they were not really open to that, legal or no. Apparently the kids have been using them everyday, so I'm glad, on one hand, I didn't push the issue and let the kids get behind because of my pet issue, but on the other hand I clearly got steam rolled by the system.

Only consolation I got was links to all their softwares' individual privacy policies they signed with the school in relation to the kids usage and data. Feels a bit like malicious compliance (reading one of those is a strain, reading one for every single piece of software they use in the year is quite a mental burden).

This ^

I’m all for standing up for our rights on things like this, but in my experience, it usually means losing out in the end if you go against the herd.

Which is why you stand up, fight, and make them pay. Because if you don't, no one else will.

I mean that is kinda different, since the devices are provided by the school.

> All that sounds great, but how do you actually assert those things without your child missing out on their classes?

Just make sure there's no excuses the school can use to deny your kids. Make sure they have a device they can use. The steamroller counts on apathy.

Is #1 legally true in the US the way the courts apply the in loco parentis doctrine in Horton v. Goosecreek Independent School District and Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District? I understand this to be your belief but my question is: does the legal apparatus actually back this up?

Not a lawyer, but I would imagine it matters a great deal whether or not the kid is on campus, and who owns the hardware.

I've had to deal with this over the past six years with five kids in school and every time they back off. Honestly, I would love to litigate this one (the bill will suck), but there comes a point where we are no longer taking care of kids and are in the zone of policing without a badge.

Also, even if I lose point #0, I think 1-3 are good enough.

Go ahead and show me the part of the constitution where it says it doesn't apply to children.

"but courts have ruled!"

If they ruled in violation of the constitution, they were wrong.

I never claimed it didn't. You can scoff at it but applied law has much more material implication compared to an individuals interpretation of the constitution. You're free to tell a judge they're wrong but it doesn't work very well in practice.

What exactly does pushing back on this issue look like? What are the conversations you need to have along the way? Did you ever seek legal guidance, or were in a position where legal counsel would have been useful?

It usually starts with an email, and is resolved pretty quickly when these boxes are checked:

[ ] We are supplying the hardware.

[ ] We wish to protect our kids and our own rights. Letting the school surveil my home network or office (when the kids are doing homework there) is a no-go.

[ ] Parents are not wingnuts (helps that I'm a developer and business owner and my wife is a teacher at another district) and can afford to lawyer up.

I've only had to have a lawyer get involved once, and that was a 15 minute call with the school district's attorney. I think the conversation was pretty much, "is he serious about this?" "Yes. I'm on retainer."

Thank you for actually protecting our kids and setting a president for all. Do you have any involvement with PTA or other public forums where these issues are discussed before being implemented?