The vital art of talking to strangers (2021)
economist.com
economist.com
Not my kids, they talk to anyone. When they ask me a question about someone I encourage them to ask the person. When the want something I encourage them to ask (respectfully). They always, always get nice responses and I get friendly conversations afterwards. Think of yourself, how would you react? Well 99.999 of people would react the same.
I would also genuinely, deeply, and silently dislike every second of the forced interaction.
99.999% of people might react the same, but that doesn’t mean we all feel the same.
No verbal interaction is forced, especially one initiated by a child toward an adult.
Act as you wish. Young people need to see examples of persons who are abnormal, maladjusted or even insane so that they can recognize them and learn how to deal with them in the future. Their Dad can explain that too.
Well no, they probably wont a lot of the time. That's somewhat the point though. To learn you have to practice. To learn you have to fail.
Your assumptions certainly appear to demonstrate the inappropriate views many have towards those of us who do not particularly value their company.
Also, out of sheer curiosity, may I ask why you would dislike the interaction?
As to your last question, the “why” is simple. I find small talk to be both pointless and exhausting. I prefer to be left alone, and for those with nothing to say to say nothing.
You have no wisdom (great or small) to impart while using others to assuage your need for external social validation.
It was isolating for a while until we sort of gave up and accepted that people are just different out here. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're moving back to Chicago (for other reasons). We're looking forward to not having to jump through hoops just to have a meaningful convo with a stranger again.
Those who aren't used to it often don't appreciate it.
For the record, I'm not trying to get into a 45 minute convo. It would just be nice to have a little friendly banter from time to time. I appreciate that different places have different cultural norms, otherwise the planet would be a very boring place. But getting consistently iced out by strangers is kind of a bummer.
Edit: typo
On the other hand, Texans are far more open to speak with strangers and shoot the shit with people in public. There’s less rush to keep moving and people are far more open to chatting.
My theory is that population density may have an effect on this behavior. Boston is far more dense and when you ride the train or bus everyday people keep to themselves. It’s far more emotionally draining to keep interacting with everyone that you meet so people conserve their energy.
For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money, either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time. Even those interactions could have always just been a ruse to see if I have a watch worth stealing, or as a distraction to help enable pickpocketing.
Since smartphones became widespread and nearly everybody has access to the time and directions on their own, pretty much 100% of the time I've been approached by strangers in public is because they want me to give them money. One person mistook me for somebody they knew.
It's just not worth me spending any time responding to random strangers because it's almost guaranteed they just want money.
> For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time.
That's selection bias.
You are interacting with the most desperate, entrepreneurial, and lost people, who are not a random and unbiased sample of the whole city.
I think it’s something other than weather.
Yes, this is mostly an urban/rural divide. I've lived in several small New England towns where people talk to each other in public all the time.
But I've also lived in Boston. And I've learned that if a stranger strikes up a conversation in Boston, there are two possibilities:
1. They need directions or emergency aid.
2. Or they have absolutely no grasp of appropriate social norms, and I am about to have a deeply weird conversation. At best.
In theory, I am perfectly happy to speak with strangers on the subway. In practice, I do not wish to hear about how lizard people rule the world.
hold it right there, jabroni
Maybe a better analogy is starting a lawnmower.
In my neighborhood it’s very much the opposite and there’s little/no eye contact and chatter.
Day to day is more much reserved and insular as we go about our business.
Many years ago, I was riding on a nearly empty city bus. A guy got on and sat not too far away. After a bit, he looked my way and sidled over to be in conversation distance and said, "Excuse, I moved here from Florida about two months ago. Nobody here will talk to me, and I'm starting to go crazy. Is there something wrong with me?"
Edit: the downside of this, in my experience as well, is getting pigeon-holed in some activity with others. Especially when something like alcohol is involved
One of the funniest lines of Dumb and Dumber to me is "well big gulps eh, see you later!" [1]
i.e, random convos in bars here are not a thing - or at least not comparable to e.g the east coast of America.
If you'll pardon my french here: the PNW is the most clique-filled bar experience I have experienced worldwide and it's really very boring to deal with. You can make it work, but it winds up being more work than is ideal.
pronounced goo-morn in Danish, and written godmorgen :D
Last month someone asked me which track the train leaves from. I answered and that turned into chatting with someone from Lebanon visiting the US who was nearing the completion of their PhD in theoretical physics mixed with quantum computing. Out of no where a 90 minute conversation ensued around programming, life in different countries and a bunch of other assorted topics.
Never would have happened on a plane or or on the highway.
My dad grew up in the same town, with a similar family situation. And as a result, he knew everyone. He used to drive me absolutely crazy whenever we'd go out because no matter where we went, he'd bump into someone and wind up in a 30 minute chat.
But as an adult I realized it was hugely important for my own social skills to witness and get pulled into those conversations.
I'm an introvert (I take after my mother in this respect), but I think I'm a pretty decent small talker, and since my own kids have started getting bigger I've been trying to make an effort to overcome the friction I feel to opening up to new people so that I can demonstrate some of what my dad did. For the most part I actually enjoy talking with people, but I do really have to push myself to get started with conversations sometimes.
My wife and I actually just forced ourselves to attend a birthday party for a neighbor that we'd been invited to tonight. Our kids landed there ahead of us so our hands were forced. We ended up having a great time and got such a warm greeting from the host (sometimes it can really surprise me how happy a person is to see us, haha).
tl;dr: It's definitely worth the effort to push past the friction sometimes.
Has anyone overcome this problem? Where would you go to interact with strangers–importantly where there’s an appropriate social context that permits interacting.
First: Work a job that is socially embedded. Restaurants, grocery stores, front desk retail, anything customer service related. Getting comfortable with people has a weird out-of-order solution where if your discomfort is visible, the interaction will sour; find something that forces a fix to the initial discomfort, like the jobs above. They'll act as a shim that'll let you bypass the initial anxiety.
Second: The emotions you wear on your face are what perpetuates a conversation. If you can find a reason--not act, not fake--to want to talk to someone, to learn about them, they will immediately, unconsciously pick up on it, and return that excitement. Conversely, if you don't trust someone, or think they don't want to talk to you, they wont want to talk to you, and they won't find you trustworthy, either. It's a counterinruitive, ready-fire-aim thing. You don't need to be perfect at this, you just need to be aware of it. People are excellent at vetting intentions.
Third: The idea that there's somewhere you can go that will make socialization easy is a farce. Interaction is "permitted" everywhere, and you can try it anywhere. Go for several short conversations instead of putting all your effort into one. You should be fishing for enthusiasm: if you get no effort back, then it is unwanted. Drop it and try again with someone else.
The whole point of bringing groups together is to encourage people to interact. It’s awkward for everyone, but you can make it less awkward for others by just being friendly.. complimenting someone, or even just asking a simple question to get some engagement.
As long as you are respectful, friendly, and not pushy, everyone will respect you back.
Try to find some local gatherings in your own community, maybe a church potluck (they won’t care if you’re not religious, they are just happy you are there) .. maybe a local game shop has some DND evenings, or just find something that aligns with your personal interests.
To improve your nervousness about speaking, toastmasters or a Dale Carnegie class are both good options as well.
Most places will start by giving you some training materials on how to initiate friendly, non-threatening interactions with the customers. These are basically to burn some non-business cycles with the customer to prove that you're not trying to hard-sell them by using aggressive and manipulative techniques on them[1].
There are a lot of open-ended, safe topics you'll use for this. But once you get comfortable with the technique, you'll realize that you could use almost any question. Even rather specific ones like, "What's your favorite sandwich" can start a perfectly fine conversation with someone. Most people like new, unpredictable utterances and as long as you present it as non-threatening it can lead to a fruitful conversation.
Along with this you'll learn to time your speech to provide plenty of spaces where your interlocutor can cut away if they so wish. E.g., if you've told 3 pithy little stories which were each less than 15 seconds, they will feel at ease staying for one more before they go away. If on the other hand they aren't able to predict whether your next story is going to be a fun 10 seconds or an excruciatingly dull 5 minute rabbit hole, things are going to get awkward real quick.
Finally, if you don't listen you won't sell shit so you will have a nice daily scorecard on your progress.
1: It's amazing how well this works. Hard-selling commissions must be so razor thin that the salespeople can't even spend 30 seconds to build normal rapport with another human being. I've literally never had the experience of an employee starting out as a human being and then pivoting to aggressive/manipulative tactics. But maybe all the salespeople who excel at that are employed by big pharma and since I'm not a doctor I don't have contact with them.
What kind of therapy do you look for for things like this? As someone deeply inverted, prone to "creatively interpreting" things in a negative light, who dwells on imagined sleights, etc. I've thought maybe I need some professional help. But I'm kind of afraid of talking to people about my issues in general so I don't know what kind of therapist would work for me.
The most important (and hardest) part is finding a therapist you trust.
Love yourself first. If you truly believe that you have value;
that when you open your mouth and speak to others, you brighten their day;
that when other people meet you, they are happier or smarter than they were before they met you;
then it is your natural obligation to talk to other people (don't dehumanize them by calling them strangers), because you are giving them the gift of your own special human light.
I realised that after the COVID lockdowns people were so starved for contact with other people that any interaction would make their day. You don't need a pandemic for that, you can always make peoples' day just a bit better by saying hello.
If they don't want to talk you should be able to recognize it instantly.
It is amazing how a talk to the person next to you on a plane can turn a boring, multiple hour long flight into a nice experience that feels way shorter.
I've had many fantastic conversations with people on planes and few meh ones, it's deffo worth putting a bit of effort in.
where is the risk?
I would just put on some headphones and read in that situation
I always have some noise cancelling headphones where ever I travel, great for reducing the noise of screaming kids and people trying to facetime
If I dont start talking to the person, I don’t have that problem.
When people see my seat and see that it’s better than theirs, and simply ask me for it, sometimes I cave in in the interest of being nice. It’s cool that they want a nice gift from me, but even if I say a polite “no,” it makes me feel defensive about occupying a seat that I picked for a reason, under the same rules by which they picked theirs.
I've also had the opposite situation, where I was desperate to switch but couldn't. The worst case was when I got the last seat on a flight and found myself between this completely asshole older couple where, it came out, the man would only fly in a window seat and his wife would only sit on the aisle. They bickered at each other over me for 3 hours as if I wasn't even there, and both refused to switch with me, going so far as to claim they both got airsick if they sat in a middle seat. Obviously, it wasn't even worth asking anyone else on the plane to switch, but I've never wanted to kill anyone as much.
I remember having lots of random conversations with my seatmates on planes, and I’m not the type to talk to strangers myself.
It used to be normal to always ask something along the lines of “where are you headed?” and maybe let that evolve into a chat about shared experiences about cities and places. I still remember some of the fascinating people I met this way and will never see again.
But in the last couple of years all my flights have been purely transactional where not a single casual word is ever exchanged with anyone.
It was fascinating and amazing how with hours with nothing else to occupy us, we overcame boredom by exchanging this story despite the language barrier.
but those days also had a darker side, like having a dress code for passengers...
And let's not forget public transport...
Anyway what does it matter? Those all happened to me, I suspect they're living their lives indifferent of my opinion.
Similarly, non social people aren’t that way because the data suggests it’s better, and data isn’t going to change that
Rather some mix of biological differences in attention, cognitive arousal styles and environmental conditioning determine sociality
The more interesting question to me is “what are the environmental and structural contexts that maximize ‘high engagement’ prosociality?”
With the follow on “via what means would we modify our current environment to realize that optimization”
For an example, take this quote:
> But that is not the whole story. In mid-life and beyond people can still experience the joy of a random meeting, however short, which somehow touches a nerve.
What exactly is the joy? Is that joy not something I can obtain more easily via the “traditional” social channels I’ve cultivated over the course of my life thus far? And won’t a social interaction in one of those channels have a much greater chance of lasting positive impact given that person is more likely to be someone I interact with regularly, enabling me to build off that initial interaction over time?
Moreover, what’s the downside of the encounter? I suspect a lot of asocial people like myself strongly dislike the much more common awkwardness and self-doubt that accompany a social interaction that goes poorly. Is enduring a lot of that really worth the few instances where you feel a fleeting sense of connection?
Putting effort into that social interaction also means I will have less energy to put into other pursuits that mean more to me: my marriage, playing piano, reading, career goals, riding my bike, existing friendships, etc.
I don’t disagree with the article necessarily, but I do think it’s mostly an “ode to random social encounters” more than a serious attempt to make a case for why people not predisposed to doing so should try to have more random social encounters.
The questions you ask in your last two sentences really get at the interesting stuff. But of course they are too nuanced and complex to answer in any comprehensive, generalized way within an easily digestible length.
You might ask why I don't start such conversations. I simply do not think im capable. I wish I were, but ive spent a great deal of stress trying to get myself to talk freely at things like conferences, parties, etc. I just can't do it. This affliction I think is more and more common.
There is stuff there that can help you get people to talk to you without initiating the conversation yourself
That book changed my life
I'll try to read that book, hopefully I'm not let down by the hope there is a social magic trick I have never been privy to.
I’d recommend to not read any further until you’ve done the exercises, every chapter has 1-3 different ones
Reading the book might help you understand some things about yourself or about people, but by far the most important thing is to do the exercises
Thanks for the recommendation, I will give it a try.
If you could do just one thing, I’d recommend only reading the intro and practicing the 3 tips/exercises as much as possible until they become a habit
I find the modern "autopilot" social life tends to put me in touch with much the same people. Whether that's through meeting similar friends of friends, similar socioeconomic people through work, or algorithmically-determined similar people through social media or dating apps.
I put a conscious effort to live in a large city and interact with the people around me every day, and sometimes I'm called weird for it. But I think it's weirder that we move around these cities and treat everyone as "strangers to be ignored" until the moment we meet up with our target social group, and suddenly everyone these is "someone interesting and worth talking to".
Um. No. I was polite, but...no. I had no interest in learning who she was, why she was there, or what she did for a living. I heard all of that anyway. Look, I haven't put on my social facade yet and I am not interested.
You're next to me on the train? I have zero interest in talking to you.
a) I'd have to listen to them discuss (probably) the footy, or their Rav-4. That's incredibly tedious.
b) They sure don't browse HN, and to have an interesting conversation, I'd have to explain a lot of things instead of being able to debate or explore them.
That said, I'm pretty sure it was just an introvert/extrovert clash. She couldn't imagine not chatting over coffee. Whereas I have a job working with people (teaching), which I like, but it means outside the job I am even more introverted...
I'd never start talking to a person sitting next to me on a train or a plane, but when they start I'm most often very glad to have someone to talk to...
Today, a woman and I were both looking at the same display in Hobby Lobby, both clearly looking for something.
When she moved over, I used something I've learned recently, which is, "Oh, sorry to be in your way -- I'm just looking for something to build a backpack with." Which is not entirely true, since it's a nopack -- a system which uses everyday components from my backpacking experience to make a carrying system, but close enough. A strange lie that is expected in simplification.
I've learned that this mode of phrasing means "Hi, I'm interested in maybe the same thing as you are, and would like to make potential conversation about [topic mentioned] or [thing we are mutually looking at] (or, as I later realized just now, [topic behind why you're looking at the thing you're looking at]).
She took me up on all three of those things, and we talked about jean zippers, backpacking, safety on the Appalachian Trail (I'm a trans nonbinary woman/gal, I don't think she noticed though from how the conversation went. Places like Hobby Lobby and Chick Fil A can have a different vibe to them when not passing well), and a few other miscellaneous things. It was very nice, we talked maybe 5-10 minutes or so before going on our separate ways.
My day felt more full, I felt more happy, and less isolated.
I wish there was a dictionary, or some kind of book/guide that explained these kinds of things. Somebody on the Appalachian Trail this year taught me how to indirectly ask for things (i.e. "Do you know a good way to get to [X town]?" while wearing a backpack sorta means "Hey, can you give me a ride please?". This was a shocking revelation to me, and made life much easier).
Having a clear, simple guide would have saved me much grief. These things aren't complicated, they're just too complex and too hidden for most of us to sort out through all of the information overwhelm mire.
I'm happy to talk more about this topic, I could really talk about it for a long time <3 :'))))
It would be very nice having a translation guide between how our minds work and the minds of the general neurotypical population work. Sort of like learning a new language -- since in this case, immersion sorta almost has the opposite effect sometimes. <3 :'))))
I do let people know up front that I'm autistic and may miss social cues, and to please let me know directly. I also react receptively to advice, and when I find something potentially useful, I present my best guess from what they're saying. People like correcting when someone is wrong, I've been told, and it seems to be true!
With social things, I naturally react incredulously regardless, which often lets people come in and help out with more advice, which helps a lot. Sometimes I'll also go down a "what do you mean by this? I'm not really sure how to _________" and that seems to be effective.
Remember, if you're lonely and in public, a lot of strangers are too. Eventually, like the tide rising, built social skills can lead to more, and more, and more....
I'm not sure if this helps at all. Consider this one interaction with a stranger that may help fill some gaps in your knowledge! ;) (or, maybe not at all, that's okay too, love! <3 :')))))
* How to talk like you have something to say
* How to leave space for others to talk
* Helping the conversation move along
* Saying stuff that is interesting but not necessarily true without being deceptive
* Be funny now and then (YMMV)
https://www.amazon.com/Improv-Your-Conversations-Banter-Tech...
I should probably try more with improv, it seems fun (albeti scary), but a good way to basically 'hit the gym' for some social skills. If I can cross some of those barriers, maybe the others won't be too terribly hard!
For me, what helped a lot was backpacking a social trail like the Appalachian Trail. Every stranger basically talks, you get to know people REAAAALLLL fast, and people that don't talk oftentimes actively avoid it and are seen as a bit weird. People on the trail I was on were seemingly totally fine with me being autistic and trans, it's a pretty accepting place. <3 :'))))
Hah! As someone who used public transport for most of my life, I've suffered through more than my fair share of narcississtic self-obsessed extroverts who don't get the hint.
And some people's tolerance for tedious conversation can be higher or lower. Mine's pretty low, so I know where the P is coming from.
What's really rude is to waste people's valuable time and peace of mind.
No I didn't ask people to stop talking to me. The point I'm making is that I often run into people completely impermeable to social-cues, body-language and other hints.
It has some really good exercises to build confidence and ease social anxiety
How to talk to someone? There are a few ways:
1. Give a compliment that you genuinely mean. It has to be genuine because sometimes you gotta go in-depth with your compliment to show that it's genuine. Such as: "I really like your whole outfit style. I don't want to assume, but it makes me think you're a free spirit playing guitar and I'm just vibing to that feel."
2. Ask a question you're curious about that you think the person next to you might on the off chance know something about.
3. Talk about something happening in the situation that seems to be interesting "do you have any clue why there's such a huge line over there?"
4. Talk about something happening and just make it a statement "I love the fact that Amsterdam has these free water fountains in certain places!" (while everyone is standing near it)
5. Tell a story.
When you talk to someone, you need to be aware that they're on autopilot. This means that you first need to grab their attention. I personally do this by saying "excuse me". When they look up, then I tell my actual thing I want to say.
Responses:
- Good: carry on
- Mediocre: maybe carry on?
- Not interested: don't carry on. Don't internalize it was you. It might've been you, it might've been something else. You don't know. And even if it was you, maybe it really was some projection of their psychological state that goes back to childhood (aka not really you). You just don't know. But yea, learning to be okay with that not everyone is interested is okay.
Other ideas:
* Playfulness helps. Playfulness generates humor. I don't know how to generate humor, but I do know how to be playful (playful = don't take things seriously, don't look for truth, do look for fun and play).
* Curiosity helps.
* Asking questions helps, as long as you're interested in them and you're not asking them to just carry the conversation.
* Statements help. Not everything needs to be Q&A.
* Telling stories help. Just in general, it gives people to latch onto a lot.
I hope this helps some. It's a non-comprehensive guide made by someone who has spend a lot of time thinking about it (but at the moment is quite rusty :P). I fail at it often, I succeed at it often as well. Whatever, I'm talking to people. Failure and success doesn't matter. All that matters is are you sending a ping to the whole wide world, or not? :D
Say at the airport or abroad the chances are essentially 0.0% for friendship and somewhat higher for romantic relationships provided that you are young and wild enough.
More generally guys should strive to build a crew , some sort of small army of friends whose components are stable during the course of time.
I have had a few interesting conversations with strangers on planes. Most recently, I talked to a former government worker from Hawaii. I never saw them again, but I enjoyed just hearing their experiences and views because they were a random person from a completely random walk of life that I would otherwise never encounter as part of my normal weekly routine.