Racist Twitter user jailed for 56 days
bbc.co.uk
bbc.co.uk
1) It's a tweet (of all things)..
2) Which incites nothing, and is an expression of opinion
And the guy gets hauled off to jail for 2 months because of it? This is the kind of behavior I'd expect from China, not an ostensibly first world nation!
*edit
I meant that literally, too. My mind simply ceases processing the circumstances under which a completely harmless tweet, in a place like Great Britain, can be grounds for legal action. I thought (mistakenly) that freedom of speech was recognized a bit more with the US's allies.
Why incitement to racial hatred might be an issue in the UK?
The usual figure given is 1 in 10 people living in the UK is an immigrant. This does NOT count descendants of immigrants.
>Why incitement to racial hatred might be an issue in the UK?
"Let's go roam around and beat up some old people, clockwork orange style!"
any different from
"Let's go roam around and beat up some old black people, clockwork orange style!"
Both are conspiracy to commit a crime, both are likely to involve someone being injured to the point of near death, yet one is somehow worse and will lead to harsher sentencing because it's motivated by a different kind of hatred?
I am legitimately ignorant on this matter, could someone enlighten me?
Because the latter terrorizes the subgroup and gives social proof making it "more acceptable" to target that group for both crimes and less than crimes.
I live in an area that still has streets named after what they did to black people here (And I didn't realize it while I lived on that street what it was named for): Lynch
I think you need data to support this assertion. Following the Skokie march was there more violence against Jews in Chicagoland?
As far as terrorizing the subgroup, I guess that depends. As a Jew I don't feel terrorized by Neo-nazi mailing lists, despite many of them being public. Moreover, even if I felt uncomfortable, I don't believe that my feeling overrides their right to express themselves in methods which don't constitute harassment.
Demonizing an outgroup to turn them into acceptable targets is exactly what this law is to prevent (and there is something to prevent: see the British National Party).
I find the British reaction to this tweet appaling, that they jailed the racist twit.
I however fully support the lengthening of sentences when a subgroup bias is determined to be likely.
While nothing easy popped up via a google search, here is another reason: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/hate_crimes_study...
Apparently, victims of bias based crimes have more trouble getting over the crimes as well (as they can't very well stop being that thing).
While I'm sure such cases do exist it also happens that Lynch is a very common Irish surname.
I don't know the full story, the tweets are gone and the BBC didn't reproduce them.
Also, "fighting words" is not simply inviting or inciting violence, it's "those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace."
Here's the Wikipedia article on US hate speech, they call out specific forms of hate speech which are illegal.
Second, it seems that your own link reinforces exactly what I said. Inciting violence is not a crime in the United States. Incitement to riot may be, but this is not what you said. US law requires an immediate threat of violence in order to censure speech outside of defamation and obscenity.
Incitement is a related doctrine, allowing the government to prohibit advocacy of unlawful actions if the advocacy is both intended to and likely to cause immediate breach of the peace.
You seem like you're reaching for something to argue about. "Yes, but you didn't use the proper legal term!" You also seem to be confusing the statement I made about civil suits vs what can be considered a crime. But, since two people have been willing to argue semantics in what is obviously not legal advice, I will say you must be right. I concede. Hateful comments could not get you sued civilly and inciting violence is not the same as advocating a breech of the peace. I guess.
Happens everywhere.
This is a British citizen who was jailed for things that he posted on Twitter that did not incite violence. This does not happen in the United States. This is unconstitutional in the United States.
I wasn't comparing the severity of the reactions though. I was just pointing out that tweeting can land you in trouble. It is _not_ like sharing something naughty with a buddy over a pint. People just need to be more cautious of what they tweet or put on their face book wall.
Irrespective of severity, the level of overreaction in both incidents is comparable (IMO). Deporting tourists because they tweeted something harmless in hipster-speak is a bit naff.
I don't know much about the government there or what people have rights to, any clarity would be much appreciated.
I am a bit surprised that this can be enforced without the person in question actually taking action. (hes still in the hospital in critical condition, so I suspect he didn't)
What I am missing in the article is what he actually said.
All in all, the height of the sentence surprises me as well.
This is a fundamental tenet of criminal law. Crimes are taken to be against society, not just against the victim, because it is in the interests of everyone to stop criminality, not just the victim. The state prosecutes, not the person in question.
> All in all, the height of the sentence surprises me as well.
Race-related crimes are taken more seriously here (as opposed to the equivalent crimes without a race-hate component).
Yes, I am aware of this distinction. But still, saying "*hole" to someone wouldn't most likely be a crime (whats the proper English term for this), so I was just surprised about where the line is drawn.
> Race-related crimes are taken more seriously here (as opposed to the equivalent crimes without a race-hate component).
Yes, but 56 days of jail is a lot. Different countries, different handling. In Germany, this would most likely lead to a hefty fine and social work hours, which would still be a pain for a first offender.
I didn't see anything in the reported tweets that would be considered criminal in the US, though. We'd certainly jail someone for making real threats or inciting a crime, but not for mere racism.
Besides, from my cursory reading of the Brixton riots, the protestors were mad at police inaction, not hate speech.
The fact there was no right to free speech in English law until 1998 may also be related. (",)
It is also maybe difficult to get across to someone viewing in the US what a major news story Muamba's illness has been in the UK, the universal condemnation of the remarks, and more generally the efforts that have gone into eradicating racism from football in the UK. It is very difficult to divorce this from its societal context.
Is it illegal to be ignorant in the UK?
I'm probably using out of context example here but WBC protests at dead soldiers funerals regularly, everyone knows that, and they're not touched. Though I suppose protest and direct prejudicial comments aren't in the same ballpark entirely.
It's all circumstantial I guess.
Well, it's not clear cut. What can constitute "racism" or not is quite open to interpretation.
Even statements of fact or plain arguments can be interpreted as racist.
For example, if you are against illegal immigration in my country (and many others) you are labeled as "racist", even if the reasons you are against it have nothing to do with race, but say, with border control, lack of supporting infrastructure for too many immigrants, possible use of minorities as a political weapon from surrounding countries, etc.
There is NO doubt the statements were racist in this case.
I don't see that this is any different from the US First Amendment. It has exceptions too (eg. shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre). "Inciting racial hatred" is an equivalent restriction. You may disagree on this law specifically, but I don't see how this affects anything fundamental like freedom of speech or anything like that.
They clearly aren't the same though, which is why I said that you can disagree on the specifics.
> One is an expression of ideas, the other is an incitement of panic.
This is pure sophistry. I could just as well argue that I wanted to express the idea that there might be a fire. That it incites panic is secondary, just as inciting racial hatred might incite violence. You are still welcome to disagree, but you've failed to make an argument.
Some people shrug and say, “Inciting a crime indirectly shouldn’t be a crime.” Others say, “Inciting a crime indirectly might be a crime, it depends on how indirectly, we need to talk about where to draw the line.” Others might say, “Inciting a crime ought to be a crime, but because there’s no unambiguous way to draw the line, we can’t make a law against it” and so on.
So there’s plenty to debate. But I don’t think anyone is saying that “hate speech” is just the expression of ideas. It’s the expression of ideas that is held to incite criminal and/or illegal behaviour.
Not always. Hate speech is just that - if you're dumb enough to go and do something stupid based on what someone else says, that's your fault, not his.
Neither. It's an opinion, which should not only be allowed, but there should not even be a debate. Also, people seem to forget that, up until recently, it was okay to say that you wanted the death of an entire group of people. What wasn't okay was to single out a specific, identifiable person. Now, the former is becoming the norm, and you can see this actually covered in many online Terms of Service, which is, on its face, ridiculous in the extreme.
"But I don't think anyone is saying that 'hate speech' is just the expression of ideas. It's the expression of ideas that is held to incite criminal and/or illegal behaviour."
I AM SAYING THAT. I am not liable for the thoughts which you have when you see the swastika on my arm, yet that same swastika can get me arrested in some places. Likewise, I am not liable for the thoughts which you have when you hear certain words that I might say. I don't control what goes on inside of your brain when certain auditory or visual impulses hit it.
I AM SERIOUSLY UPSET THAT THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE LIKE YOU IN THIS WORLD. You actually believe that the mere conveyance of opinion should be banned because it might cause someone to do something. Think about what kind of world your children and their children will have if this kind of thinking becomes even more pervasive.
The true meaning of life is to continuously evolve towards some end, of which we are presently unaware. Said evolution requires unfettered communication to proceed apace, especially given that "evolution" is now becoming less rampantly biological and more self-directed, such as through technology, particularly nanotechnology. When said communication is censored, in any fashion, evolutionary progress is hampered. Thus, any act of censorship stands against life itself, and is therefore "evil" in the truest sense of the word. That is my belief. It's extreme, it's in the minority, it's completely at odds with yours, and I will firmly hold onto this belief until the day I die.
Eh, by that logic we should jail all Marxists due to their belief that a worldwide Communist revolution will require violence. Or anarchist newsletters for even discussing the violant takeover of the United States. Or any of many legitimate political viewpoints which incorporate violence as a possible solution to ideological problems. Even Malcom X would fall under this purview.
I don't think this is a very strong argument at all.
This is why the US law generally allows even inciting speech as long as it does not cause an immediate threat of violence.
It is a freedom of speech issue because we should be allowed to write what we want on our personal social networks. I think it is absurd that mommy government can read your tweets (whats next? blogs, emails?) and give you jail time for the 'naughty' things you say.
I think what bothers me most is that the person he made fun of is a pro-athlete, part of the job is to take abuse from haters and rival fans. European soccer is notoriously rowdy, fans shout any and everything they can from the stands. It's part of the game.
I’m not sure how I think about this particular verdict (or whether making such comments in pubic should be illegal or not), but I do get very angry when people tell me that racism (or homophobia) is part of the game. No. No it's not. Being racist or homophobe is not being “rowdy”. It’s disgusting and no one should do it. Tradition or any other such nonsense is no valid defense.
Insulting fans and players of other clubs: Ok and expected.
Being racist while doing it: Not ok.
It’s quite simple.
—
† In most cases and in this case.
I don't know if you're aware, but the user posted the comments shortly after Muamba suffered a cardiac arrest on the pitch during a game. He was in critical condition in hospital for days, and remains in serious condition now.
The scenes were broadcast live on television, and the incident has received extensive media coverage, leading to an outpouring of support from all members of society, including players and supporters of rival teams.
Personally, I don't think these facts should have any bearing on the legality of making such statements. As far as I'm concerned the relevant legislation is absurd — I don't believe offensive speech should be prohibited — and this was a knee-jerk sentencing, the severity of which seems almost entirely divorced from that of the crime, but you have to admit the comments were in pretty bad taste...
I think you'll find, posting it on Twitter is the same as getting a tshirt with it written on and walking on the streets.
In the US that would be legal, there was actually a media uproar about the very issue this week (note: the article has offensive language in it): http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-martin/cracker-t...
I think what bothers me most is that other citizens reported him to the authorities for such, which means a percentage of the population agrees with speech being restricted so long as it restricts speech that is contrary to their dogma. Racism is a slippers slope too, I once witnesses a person being lambasted as a racist for calling an obvious blood gang member a thug. What people feel is the definition of racist varies widely and is very much perception based. I could easily see a law like that being used for witch hunts.
In the US you can never be jailed just for speech, you must be jailed for speech in conjunction with physical harm or targeted harassment.
If the words themselves do not cause an imminent and immediate threat of violence they are protected.
Offensive? Rude? Sure. But it doesn't seem like anything too out of the ordinary. If they had microphones in bars, they'd arrest millions for similar utterances.
However, I still have real issues and concerns with him being jailed for making a racist comment. This seems an awful lot like a slippery slope that we don't want to go down. Any law that restricts what we can say or think scares me when information continues to become easier to pass along into the "public domain."
Somehow I doubt it, although the logic is superficially sound.
So no: there is no way in hell that any US court will order an extradition for a prosecution of a pure act of speech. They occasionally break that rule internally, of course. But no way would any politician allow a foreign court to do it.
The text of the ECHR does explicitly mention "duties and responsibilities" and so is perhaps not as strong as the Bill of Rights in this regard, but it is wrong to say there is no guarantee to free speech in British law.
And that's the point; the gp was, I _believe_, complaining about the perceived lack of equity in a relationship that has the US extraditing citizens of the UK for actions that are crimes in their jurisdiction but not in the UK, when it would never be considered to be allowed the other way.
See the difference?
And the "never be considered to be allowed the other way" bit is silly. The US has extradition treaties with most of the industrialized world, and extradites criminals routinely (although perhaps not necessarily fairly or symmetrically). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_S...
But they won't extradite anyone for this crime, for reasons of fundamental constitutional law. That's not going to change no matter how many downvotes the first amendment receives above.
I've been trying to find a case where the US extradited someone to a jurisdiction where they were accused of committing a crime not on US books. I can't.
You want the US to extradite people for hate speech. I pointed out that no, that will never happen because of the clear text of the first amendment to the constitution. And you started flaming away, I guess because I'm American and therefore The Enemy.
But the point remains that no matter how symmetric and just and wonderful its extradition policy might come to be, US law would never allow such an extradition. It will not happen. So stop flaming and find another shibboleth.
And you're not The Enemy; I don't have any enemies. I'm Irish and therefore neutral and too small for anyone to care about. ",)
And even if it were not, and this was an edge case where the first amendment might not apply: there is no way a US court would order an extradition to a another country and let a foreign court (!) interpret the US constitution. None.
outside of obscenity, defamation, incitement to riot, and fighting words.
Even in the US, you can be sued civilly for hateful comments and jailed for comments that could be construed as inviting or inciting violence. I don't know the full story, the tweets are gone and the BBC didn't reproduce them.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3762691
It really seems like everyone here (including in the other thread) is trying to read more than what I wrote. Both you and the other person I was talking to used the word "crime", when I never remotely hinted at calling it a crime.
Liam Stacey posted racist tweets soon after Muamba collapsed.
Here's a Youtube video which claims to be screengrabs of the tweets. (I have no idea if it is or not.)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA5v2eZ5ZZE)
Huffpo has a screenshot, but it's been blurred to the point of incomprehensibility.
In England most offences are treated more severely if there's a racial motivation.
I post this here because I'm pleased that no-one is saying (as far as I can tell) that Twitter should be responsible for what its users post. No one is calling for Twitter to have more oversight or to control their users. People have been happy for the existing laws to take its course.
"It was not the football world who was praying for [Muamba].... everybody was praying for his life."
What a bullshit - I don't even know who he is and I don't care. I stopped reading here.
1. Extradition of their citizen to US, for creating link aggregator [1][2]
2. Jail for downloading a file [3]
3. Politicaly correct brainwashing in schools [4][5]
4. Sites blocking [6]
5. Jail for posting dumb messages on twitter [7]
These're few things I did remember. When I hear about new case, I don't bookmark it, that's why this list is short.
[1] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/03/copyright-wa...
[2] http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/2012/jan/13/piracy-student-los...
[3] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/02/police-downl...
[4] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223738/Nursery-chil...
[5] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2103175/Boy-7-brande...
[6] http://www.freshtechweb.com/after-uk-high-court-ruling-the-p...