Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Sites Is Reshaping Beliefs | Hacker News Reader

Threat from Climate Change to Some of India’s Sacred Sites Is Reshaping Beliefs

worldsensorium.com

43 pointsdnetesn37 comments

My family is from that general area and the description feels a little Orientalizing

> The gods of this region are closely associated with the land itself; and these gods, nature and humans are intimately connected

While plenty of people are religious, everyone there know it's a mix of climate change and unchecked construction and logging mafias destroying the local ecology and leaving it ripe for massive disasters.

For example, take a look at the recent floods in Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, and Jammu Kashmir. It was triggered by climate change but further exacerbated by a mix of shoddy construction, unpermitted construction of hotels on ridge edges, riverbed mining (done by both the INC and BJP - both Agnihotri and Satti are part of the mining mafia back in Una) and the Indian Govt building highways in a manner that works for plains, not high altitude ridges. [0][1][2]

The scary thing is, Himachal Pradesh is pretty well governed by developing country standards - it's developmental indicators match up with Kerala and most Provinces within China.

Imagine if climate change disasters and unchecked development happens in weakly governed areas (eg. The Medicane in Libya - 7 dead in Türkiye, 10,000-100,000 dead in Libya)

[0] - https://theprint.in/ground-reports/himachal-floods-a-perfect...

[1] - https://theprint.in/india/himachal-to-consider-controlled-ri...

[2] - https://theprint.in/india/as-rains-kill-20-in-himachal-resid...

That’s interesting. I didn’t realize had HP had a development factor close to Kerala (74 vs 75)

It's around 0.723.

I might be biased but the poverty alleviation work done in Himachal Pradesh (and also Tamil Nadu and Haryana to a certain extent) are much more impressive than Kerala, which already had higher than average developmental indicators at independence.

When Himachal became a state in 1971, there were only 1,000 MI of roads total, and the literacy rate was around 6-7%, yet by 2023, the literacy rate has reached 82.8% (it's near 100% for those born in the 1990s onwards), rural healthcare and electrification has reached even tiny hamlets on the Tibetan plateau, and there is a massive biopharmaceutical industry with a annual revenue roughly comparable to Telangana despite being a much smaller state (6 million Himachalis).

Tamil Nadu and Haryana are 2 other states that made amazing leaps from undeveloped to industrialized.

Here's are good reads on the governance apparatus in Himachal:

https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/Asian_Survey_550...

https://documents.worldbank.org/en/publication/documents-rep...

> One significant theological change that appeared to be underway within Himalayan Hinduism as a result of climate change was the transformation of the primary conception of the gods from those who bless to those who punish.

This is not a new view in Hinduism. There is a concept that the world goes through cycles and we are now in the end stage [Kali Yuga](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga)

No one talks about Kali Yug stuff in folk Hinduism in the Himalayan region. All that "Wikipedia Hinduism" stuff is weird esoteric content that everyday Hindus haven't heard about.

Source: am part of the Pahari diaspora

It’s funny how shallow the understanding of everyday believers in religions frequently are. Whenever I read about historical Christian schisms especially really early ones during the Roman Empire, it occurs to me how so few of the modern faithful have any understanding or interest in these theological issues that caused so much bloodshed and tears.

The biggest bible thumper in Alabama probably hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity and if so, at what points, but that sort of thing can be geopolitical dynamite when the right elites fight over it.

Most people never had a deep theological understanding of religion.

Mass Literacy only became a thing in the 20th century.

There's a reason why folk religions and customs exist (eg. Folk saints in Mexico and Southern Europe, the entire Chinese Folk Religion, Pir Darghas and Dervishes in Islam, etc)

Also "Hinduism" is a broad term for general folk religious practices in the South Asian subcontinent. For example, in the Himalayan region I am from you will see people revere an Iranian origin Muslim preacher who came to the area in the 13th century (Lakhdatta) despite also being "Hindu" or "Sikh"

The Wikipedia article for Lakhdatta is at “Syed Ahmad Sultan”.[0] Thanks for reminding me of him, I definitely saw his image hung in businesses in India whose proprietors otherwise seemed very Hindu or Sikh.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Ahmad_Sultan

Yep. He's commonly revered in the Pir Panjal range. For some reason, Hazarajat, Derajat, Jammu, Half of Himachal, Gurdaspur District, and Sialkot area all revere him. Heck, even the traditional language in Swat (Torwali) before it became Pakhto speaking in the 19th century is intelligible for anyone who can speak a Western Pahari language (eg. Dogra, Hindko, "Pahari") after seeing my dad surprisingly understand a BBC documentary about the Swat insurgency back in the 2010s. I wanted to dig into the cultural connection a bit deeper in college, but the RoI on graduate education on Sociology or Anthropology ain't there

My (Ahmedi) family is originally from Gurdaspur district, and while we had a picture of Nanak around, I don’t remember hearing about Syed Ahmad Sultan (although I have heard of him by the name of Sakhi Sarwar) but rather Data Ganj Bakhsh, Hz. Khizr (especially), Bulleh Shah and the “Char Yaar”

Make sense!

Khwaja Khizr and Ganj Baksh are also venerated in my area - often at the same time with Sakai Sarwar (eg. This random whatsapp forward - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XFZuubbGNXQ?feature=share)

By Gurdaspur, I meant the undivided Gurdaspur division, which included the hill regions of what's now Pathankot District in East Punjab and I think some of northern regions in West Punjab

You are thinking of Shakargarh tehsil which was detached from Gurdaspur and given to Pak (Narowal)

NB: casteist but still funny - https://www.facebook.com/RaahEHayatOfficial/videos/457120242...

> thinking of Shakargarh tehsil

Yep! Exactly this! A lot of Paharis immigrated down the hills to that area in the 19th century with the canal colonies. Similar thing in Jhelum as well!

> NB: casteist but still funny

Lol. Gotta love Desi social media. Our clickbait is what unites us

There are enough Bible thumpers in the USA at least vaguely familiar with early Christological disputes, that non-trinitarian denominations like Oneness Pentecostalism[0] were founded. But otherwise, presumably there isn’t much interest in those disputes, whether because sola Scriptura denominations would claim that mainstream Trinitarian views were already set out in Scripture and therefore no need to study the later debates, or because the patristic literature is written by obvious Byzantine Orthodox and sometimes in very atticizing Greek, both of which would make American non-mainline-Protestants uncomfortable.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

> hasn’t ever worried about if Christ was made of the same material substance as other aspects of the Trinity

And if he does, he's asking the wrong question. "Substance" does not imply "matter" in Platonic, Aristotelian, or Scholastic philosophy. The heretical belief that God is made of matter is a distinct heresy from the heresies concerning the procession of the Trinity, which are themselves distinct from heresies which deny the existence of the Trinity.

Catholic doctrine is full of distinctions, the understanding of which are not necessary for salvation (praise be).

One could say the same of followers of "scientism". Every belief system has it's know-nothing followers who just parrot whatever they hear.

The concept of Kalyug is hardly esoteric. While I am not from that region, it is bit of a surprise to hear that.

If I'm at a puja for a local devta, Kalyug stuff doesn't come up. When you're praying to Baba Balak Nath, Jwala Ji, or Digu Wazir, stuff like that doesn't come up. It's a newish cultural import.

What's an "everyday" Hindu?

Kali Yuga began 5,124 years ago and has 426,876 years left as of 2023 CE.[11][12][13] Kali Yuga will end in the year 428,899 CE.[14][b]

Not sure how long humans are supposed to be involved but that’s quite a long time!

Agricultural revolution and its consequences...

Also known as Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times

author David Haberman tells a first-person story, with more context in his recent book

https://iupress.org/9780253056047/understanding-climate-chan...

Could you list any points that stood out to you in this context and on the topic of this thread?

my first reaction is that the author is a student of religion, and expands and retells modern religious evolution. You could say that the writing gives "voice" to religious thought. This topic of study and publication alone is in large contrast to many non-religious or even religious-hostile comments here on YNews

second note is that "voice" is not an accidental word.. it is literally human sound, in religious context, to others who understand it that way.. Generally, to read words, almost always means repeating the sounds in your mind with meaning at the same time.

In my view, religion is significant, is not "fake", does provide meaningful ways to see the world and is relevant to human coping and human discovery. The sounds of voice giving names to change, threats, adversity, some-definition of Evil, etc.. do matter in my view and also the view of Haberman. So I chose to amplify that writing, called a voice, with a comment here, to draw attention to the work, its inquiry, its contents and the value system that is related to those..

Anything bad is attributed to immoral ways of the people by all religions. A disaster is something religions don’t waste, and they always point out god is angry. Happens in every country.

I notice there are no named quotes here, it's all "a holy man" "a woman". I admit I didn't read the other sources like the book but it's a bit of a red flag for me.

It’s not clear what your expectation is. It’s quotes from people so even if they name them there isn’t much meaning to it.

While most readers probably won't check further, if they print "mr y from village x said this" there's more chance that either mr y can come forward & say "no I didn't" or other villagers can say "I live in village x and I don't know any mr y" or another journalist can say "I checked the records of village x and there's no mr y listed". Unnamed sources are a great delight of tabloid writers and while not proof of lying, they make a story less credible. This is why credible news programmes/newspapers have things like requiring at least 2 sources for any claim. Journalistic standards are a thing.

It's easier to make up stories to support a narrative when you don't have to be specific about it. Hence the suspicion mentioned by the other commenter.

> The gods of this region are closely associated with the land itself; and these gods, nature and humans are intimately connected

Since these gods don't actually exist, any statement predicated of them has no truth value.

Them not existing didn't prevent them from shaping the world you live in

I know it's cool to be edgy but at the end of the day a lot of things are run on beliefs

The invisible hand of the market doesn't exist either but we talk about it all day long in this forum

One sacred site that was submerged due to rising sea level is the ancient city of Dwarka—-in Gujarat off Indian ocean.

The remains of this 5000 year old capital of Lord Krishna—-archaeologists have found walls, artifacts, and structures off the modern Dwarka.

The city holds immense mythological significance and ancient texts such as Mahabharat corroborate the existence.

> The remains of this 5000 year old capital of Lord Krishna

From Wikipedia, with citations[0]: “Archaeological findings suggest the original temple Dwarkadhish Temple dedicated to Krishna was built in 200 BCE at the earliest.” Any reference to Krishna further back than that is mere legend, and considering that the name Krishna is etymologically from a language family that did not even reach India until more recently than five thousand years ago, your claim is preposterous on its face.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarka

As an Indian, the rise of Hindutva has been so damaging to history. So I appreciate people like you who provide more historical context and grounding.

So much gets retconned with these apocryphal takes on how everything relates to Hinduism. So much of the rich history of the subcontinent has been reduced to religious politics.

There is so much cultural erasure in the name of religious vanity. I was raised Hindu but I just can’t relate to this religious fervour

I’m not claiming anything—-nor an expert. Just reciting the experts[0]

It is laziness to cite a Wikipedia article without doing any research.

[0] https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2021/05/the-mythical-underwa...

The Wikipedia article has citations, which one can follow up on. I would say what is lazy is posting a link to “The Yucatan Times”, not exactly a reputable source on Indian archaeology, without even noticing that that article was sourced from a now-defunct article at New India Express, again not a reputable source on Indian archaeology. That source article, to judge from what was saved at Wayback Machine, does not cite a single scholar’s name or publication in making its claims. Moreover, even if the dating of human presence at the site does date back to the claimed date, your article says nothing about Krishna except the aforementioned legend.

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