Hacker News Reader

Comment by Varloom | Hacker News Reader

Do you honestly expect that they would admit it and face millions of lawsuits ?

France has a huge "cellular EM waves are bad" movement so I wouldn't trust them about this either. It's weird that they are the only country where these iPhones seem to misbehave.

> France has a huge "cellular EM waves are bad" movement

What ?

I don't know the spread of this movement but it does exist. For example, the national electric company deployed a new generation of electric meter (Linky) which can communicate data to your supplier using PLC. This communication of course emits EM waves so some people objected to the installation of this meter.

IIRC the EM thing was marginal, a bigger deal was privacy (behaviours could be inferred and resold), and most of the outrage was that people feared being charged more.

I know, I’m French. Those movements exists but they are no more widespread than in any other country.

Sounds similar to the '5g rollout caused covid' movement in the states.

5G panic was absolutely not limited to the US, honestly it's probably more prevalent in France, the UK, and Australia

Yes I don't think people realize how widespread stuff like homeopathy, cellular EM scare, antivaxx are widespread in Europe and the rest of the world. The US gets the spotlight but in other countries those opinions are often not even controversial (especially for less obvious stuff like radio waves etc)

It even predates 5G by a long shot, I recall anecdotes running the news headlines about some folks claiming newly installed (2G? 3G?) cell towers were causing them debilitating headaches, and covering walls and windows with tin foil made it better. It was later revealed that while the tower was indeed up it was entirely unpowered the whole time but that bit of news of course did not make it to the headlines.

But ironically those people were truly and seriously getting headaches and tin foil really made it better. People get to experience what they believe deep in their subconsious. See the Nocebo effect: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

Having 2 doctor parents and some amount of experience in the field of hypnosis, I can say these sort of things happen all the time to people.

Yeah we had a huge movement in the Netherlands called "stopumts" (umts = 3g)

Now those same people are complaining if they only have a 3G connection because they're out of 4g range :)

5g isn't really a thing in the Netherlands yet because of some deal with Inmarsat that has a base station there and is worried about interference.

IMHO manufactured panic. psyop

Wasn't Italy and Wuhan amongst the first places to roll out 5G?

Downvote me all you want, it doesn't change the fact about 5G rollout there.

Maybe it's just my own perception but it is one of the more widespread "out there" belief in France. It's even supported by national agencies, see my other comment.

Yeah, but these people typically target antennas, not 3 years old phones. And don't work for the ANFR. Source: french, living in a small town with its own anti-EM association.

Well if it was for the "cellular EM waves are bad" movement as you put it they would have a problem with most cellular phones and not specifically with the iPhone 12 don't you think?

Maybe, I'm just saying that the country has a different... opinion on EM waves so that might reflect on this type of action. Just as an example, if you go to their "CDC"'s (not exactly) website, the faq about em exposure from cellular waves starts by saying that there's no real proof for harmful effects buuuut... then goes on to basically say the opposite for the majority of the answer and the article in general.

(Q3)

>In the current state of knowledge, the Agency's work does not demonstrate a causal link between exposure to waves emitted by mobile communications and effects on health.

>However, some publications suggest a possible increase in the risk of brain tumors, in the long term, for intensive users of mobile phones, which is why the IARC (International Agency for Research on Cancer) has classified radiofrequencies as “possible carcinogenic”.

>Furthermore, the latest ANSES expert opinions have revealed, with limited levels of proof, various biological effects in humans or animals, some of which had already been reported in a previous expert opinion published in 2009: they can concern sleep, male fertility in animals or even cognitive performance.

https://www.anses.fr/fr/exposition-ondes-electromagnetiques-...

So again, it's a different pov. And it's weird that no other country came up to the same conclusion as of now. Q7 is also funny as they recommend not using your phone a lot to avoid em exposure, which is true but in context is obviously implying that there is harm from said exposure.

> it's a different pov

The “some publications” nonsense would literally require overturning century-old radio physics. Some publications will always find everything to be carcinogenic; this is how statistics work.

In the real world, thermal radiation can’t ionise. (Cell phones may be carcinogenic due to their materials and the behaviours they induce.)

It's affecting lots of phones.

"Smartphone radiation tests have so far led to 42 sales stops in the country. It is the first time Apple has been affected by such a move."

From https://www.reuters.com/technology/apple-disputes-french-fin...

42 is very little actually

To put "millions" into perspective based on the value of Apple, that is less than a dollar to the average American.

Of course, a company doesn't get that large by giving out money with no push back. Just some perspective.

If someone asked me for a dollar in an unpleasant and totally unfounded manner, I’d probably give it to them, even if it was inconsequential.

And thus give them more encouragement them to shake down the next person, as well as you again the next time they see you on the street.

The nuisance lawsuit business model employed by all of our favorite patent trolls.

Haha, I missed a “not,” completely inverting the meaning of my sentence. Oops!

OTOH, the French regulator publishing a product removal from market ON THE DAY of the marketing PR for the new iPhone is a distasteful attempt at raining on their parade.

I honestly doubt literally anyone in the government cares about Apple marketing

“The government” is big. Lots of people, caring about lots of things. Did you want to be less absolute in your claim?

The iPhone 12 is a three year old device. I'm not sure what parade they'd be raining on.

Also there’s a good chance Apple had some wiggle room in deciding the date that the iPhone 12 was pulled from the shelves. From apple’s perspective today sounds like a great day to pull the 12 because people would just assume it’s not available any more now that the 15 is out.

> From apple’s perspective today sounds like a great day to pull the 12 because people would just assume it’s not available any more now that the 15 is out.

It's even better because it's not available anymore exactly because of that reason :). You cannot get it in any (online) Apple Store, be it French or not.

ANFR is not the government. It’s a public agency not directly controlled by the government.

Nobody in the government cares about the iPhone 12. And concerning the current government, I’m pretty sure they are all owning iPhones, they all would love a selfie with Tim Cook and don’t even know what DAS is.

Honestly it probably has the opposite effect. I can imagine iPhone 12 owners upgrading because they think their current phone is unsafe.

No, it's Apple's fault for setting up their PR event just when French civil servants have got back to work after their summer holidays. ;)

OTOH the French regulator should not be even aware of marketing PR days for the hundred pf phones they test so your comment is a distasteful attempt to ascribe a meaning where there is none.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com