Samsung unveils monobloc heat pump for residential applications | Hacker News Reader

Samsung unveils monobloc heat pump for residential applications

pv-magazine.com

30 pointsdanboarder55 comments

For other readers, this unit is a water heater, not an HVAC heat pump.

It would be interesting to compare it to other heat pump water heaters to get an idea if the performance is that much better, of if the interesting feature is its operating temperature range.

It is for an HVAC that heats via water - i.e. a radiator system. It heats water, but not for your shower.

It might though; lots of boilers are combi systems that do your hydronics as well as on demand hot water. For example another air-to-water system that competes directly with the one in TFA:

https://www.viessmann.co.uk/en/products/heat-pump/vitocal-ra...

That might make sense, but as it doesn't mention any cooling features, I assumed it was purely for (faucet) hot water. The fact that there's no tank is weird if it was for residential hot water, I think you're right that it's for heating. (or combo, with a separate hot water reserve for showers)

I think it is targeted to cold weather markets for home heating retrofits that have gas boilers driving radiators.

Why do their diagrams include faucets and tubs/showers?

https://www.samsung.com/levant/business/system-air-condition...

Notice the 3rd party DHW tank. There are ones with heat exchangers.

My father uses heated water to run this through his radiators and floor heating. Heats the space in the winter and chills it in the summer. Warm water is just the carrier.

Does this mean it can generate chilled water at peak solar generation time and cool the room in the evening?

If heat pumps are pretty much "fridges with reversed orientation" why is it that they're so much more expensive compared to them?

Genuinely curious about this. Do they have to use different materials? Is it because they have to be outdoors? What is it?

Fridges cool a smaller contained space and don’t need as big of a compressor. ACs need to dissipate a lot more heat and you need to move that heat outside. You can get a decent mini split AC for $500 these days, and pretty much all mini splits have the valve to reverse the flow to make it heat pump.

But I guess the $500 won't be enough to warm your house in the winter ... ?

A $500 minisplit is often a ~6,000BTU unit. Most houses require more like 48,000BTU depending on their size, insulation and climate. More expensive mini splits use higher pressure and fancy inverter technology so that they can deliver 100% of their listed capacity at very cold temps where the $500 one is likely downrated below something like 15°F

heat pumps are bidirectional - they can move heat into or out of the same space. fridges are unidirectional.

The ability to be bidirectional only requires a $20 valve (first result from a search is https://www.amazon.com/Fdit-Conditioning-Reversing-Refrigera...). That's not the reason for the cost.

I don't believe that this is correct. Yes, you need the valve.

But at each end you need a device capable of either radiating heat to the atmosphere or absorbing heat from the atmosphere. Although the principles behind both processes are similar, heat pumps & minisplits (the indoor part of the system) are fairly distinct from each other.

Others have already mentioned the much greater volume of air that a heat pump typically provides service too, additionally.

Your house is a lot larger than a fridge. Also, fridges rarely have things like windows in them, and do not usually contain breathing humans who need their air ventilated.

Size, your fridge needs a compressor and cooling system that is an order of magnitude or two less powerful than something needed to heat/cool your house. Even a car aur conditioning system is way bigger and more powerful than a fridge/freezer.

I think two things. One is just size. The other is complexity.

A fridge uses a few hundred watts. A HVAC heat pump uses a couple thousand watts.

A fridge has a simple hermetically sealed compressor. With a condenser and evaporator that are just long tubes. All the connections are brazed at the factory. Dirt simple.

A heat pump has a external motor driving a compressor. So you need seals on the shaft. And then the condenser and evaporator are more complex. Some designs need blower to blow air over the evaporator. And because it's reversible you need valves as well. More complex.

Nice, if this can do on demand water heating to 70C then this is what I've been looking for.

Instant/Continuous flow water heaters are great because they only heat up what you need when you need it. So far the only ones I've found that are suitable for running a home hot water system are gas based. If you want electric, which I do because I have to get gas bottles delivered, then you're either stuck with low-pressure single-tap systems or a tank system that is either heated traditionally or by heat-pump.

A heat-pump beefy enough to do continuous flow would be awesome (though I guess potentially very expensive)

You may find this video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npqzHpeIvhM

> It is also equipped with AI Energy Mode

.... well of course it is!

"As an AI language model, I'm unable to optimize energy usage..."

Are there system where excess heat from AC is used for heating hot water, ala octovalve style.

I think tesla did mention entering this niche - what are other places where heat or cold can be scavenged? Wastewater? Solar panels? Rain water tanks?

Yes. This video posted two days ago about CO2 heat pumps talks about heating both water and the air in your home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npqzHpeIvhM

Is Samsung considered a reliable brand in other parts of the world?

My Samsung TV, electric range, and fridge have all been repaired or replaced under warranty several times.

Currently my electric range is out of warranty and one of the burners has broken yet again.

Was, maybe - i wouldn't touch anything Samsung with a ten foot pole.

Household appliance we got are all Siemens/Bosch (same group - BSH) and i couldn't be happier. They last a long time, are reasonably priced, available and if you go all in price-wise also got the latest and greatest and fanciest features...

Samsung TVs seems to be getting problematic, but at least Samsung air conditioning here in Brazil it's considered very good.

I've had a Samsung HDR tv for ~7-8 years, it started showing some damage last year, and the smart part is not great.

Comparatively, my parents Sony TV is some 20 years old and flawless.

So yeah I didn't have a great experience.

I'll point out that Samsung is a massive organisation that builds everything from TVs to Artillery to Ships.

10 years ago I bought a Samsung 4k TV, Bluray+Surround system, Fridge and front-load washing machine at roughly the same time.

All of them are still working.

The washing machine is flawless, despite being basically neglected most of the time.

The fridge is great so long as you don't over-crowd it.

The TV and surround system look and sound great, but the software got worse after purchase and they now work better as 'dumb' devices. HDMI CEC audio dropouts went away when I switched to Optical.

I will in the next 6-ish months be replacing the TV and surround system, but not with Samsung despite their still amazing looking TVs, I don't trust their software not to do dumb/annoying things.

I've seen some Valliant, Edel Auer Air, and Itho Daalderop heat pumps using propane have compressor issues. First generation issues, hopefully.

What's....the power input on this thing at full load? And hourly hot water output in litres?

what happens if you need to heat your house and it's below -10?

I use my 15 year old Panasonic heatpump down to -20 C. Add some wood to the fire on the coldest days. Works great although the «free energy» is really low at those temperatures.

If you can get refrigerant to a lower temperature than -10, you can still grab heat from the outside environment thereby heating your house.

It works less efficiently but it doesn't stop working.

From the article: “As a result, it boasts a reliable heating performance, enabling it to deliver a 100% heating performance in temperatures as low as -10 C.“

The freezing point of propane is -188C. So, it should continue to compress and expand just fine at extreme temperatures. It's just that the heat transfer probably gets a bit less efficient and it might not heat all the way to 70 degrees anymore or require more energy to do so.

Nothing. Your heat pump will still work. Modern heat pumps typically have a COP of 4 with some of the newest ones approaching 5.5. With a COP of 4, you can still heat your home when the outside temperature is -30C. The colder the outside air is, the less efficient a heat pump is so below -30C, the heat pump will still work, but the COP may have fallen to 1 or below and so may not be as energy efficient as resistive heating at that point.

Another point to consider is the capacity of your heat pump. If it's capacity is not enough to heat the room or home at -30C, it may not be able to keep up, even though it keeps up fine at -10. Make sure you have enough capacity to heat the area you need, down to the lowest outside temperatures you typically get in your area.

Absolute zero is -273C at which point there is no heat left, so at -30C, there is still a lot of heat left for a heat pump to extract to heat your home.

No way in hell would I buy something as expensive and vital as a heat pump from Samsung. Every repair technician I’ve ever talked to says Samsung appliances are awful.

Might depend on what division of Samsung makes it, and there are _many_. Among other things, they make earth moving machinery, and freight ships.

In this case it's Samsung Electronics, same division that makes the home appliances.

I wonder if the new heat pump could somehow interface with my old Samsung refrigerator so that ice no longer forms on the bottom of the freezer

It’s great your Samsung freezer still makes ice. Mine stopped a few months ago.

I don't know about Samsung refrigerators, but if you've got ice at the bottom of your freezer, it's probably an issue around the drain --- either the drain is clogged or the drain heater isn't working well enough to keep condensation liquid and the ice then blocks the drain. I had this problem and was able to figure out the drain heater just needed to be bent a smidge closer to the drain, and then I haven't had a problem since.

Is there any big brand of appliances that are actually good nowadays? It’s all designed to break in few years and make repairs unfeasible.

There are, but less so in the American market for some reason. Hitachi and Mitsubishi are pretty good.

If you go really expensive, I don't think that's always true. SubZero keeps the same model fridges for years (although some of the parts do change), they come with a diagnostics screen, and they should be repairable.

I'm happy with my Viessmann boiler, but that's all they make; they're not a multinational that tries to do everything.

Bosch is pretty good. Miele too, but they're more expensive.

I'm happy with my Panasonic appliances.

We replaced our 4 year old Samsung dishwasher with a Bosch and it is an incredible machine.

Can't comment much for Samsung quality, but that's a very slick looking matte design that will.. not match many residential units.

This uses propane [1]. Many millions of people and I burn methane to cook and heat our house so propane is not that a big change but I don't expect that we'll be able to put its piping inside our houses except for a short length.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propane

Millions of people have counter top ice makers in their home that use propane as a refrigerant. If you have a gas line that brings gas to your stove, having a heat pump circulate that same gas as a refrigerant isn't much of a stretch. Especially if its replacing a gas boiler.

Propane is the refrigerant (R290). That would be closed loop not consumed.

It doesn't "use up" propane - it's a closed system that uses the propane as a heat transfer fluid. The hot water generated by the system is what will get piped around your house.

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