For the first time in years, I’m excited by my computer purchase
changelog.complete.org
changelog.complete.org
I'd take a higher resolution OLED display over 16:10 IPS every day of the week.
The track pad rocks, not as in is good but as in a seesaw because one of the mounting springs/hardware came off and now it rattles on one corner.
The mainboard completely died on me and I had to replace it. Granted, I could do this myself and they shipped me a free one, but I've never had a device straight up kick the bucket on me like that. Although after board replacement, the laptop can no longer detect when it's closed so I have to use the power button to suspend it manually.
The charging cable is pretty bad. I have to plug the cable into the charging brick multiple times a day because it always falls out, I have debated super gluing it in there.
The overall build quality feels extremely flimsy. There is a ton of board flex.
Battery life kinda sucks but I'm not going to fault Framework for that, I am running Linux and have done nothing to improve the situation on my end.
Now I'm happy I bought one and that Framework exists, but I feel like a crazy person when I read nothing but stellar reviews. It's a very mid laptop.
I want to add that this is not buyers remorse, just a reflection on the early adapter tax. It's my understanding many of the issues I have are fixed in recent editions. It's still a daily driver after about two years and will probably last a few more, which is better than many laptops.
Just in case you haven't yet looked into it:
It really depends on the distro you are using. I assume that some willship with great support (read: automated) out of the box, but others might require a bit of manual setup.
The "powertop"[1] tool from Intel is a CLI app which let you see where energy is going and tune the system to reduce consumption.
From my own experience, the automatic tuning mode does fair job, but the mouse setting was a bit too aggressive for my taste (I think that the tool only saw it as a lambda USB peripheral), so I had to override that setting. I also wrote a simple configuration file for a systemd service to have it executed at boot time, but I lost that lately because of a drive crash, so I cannot help you more than just telling you it's doable, if you're willing to dig through the man pages.
https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/optimizing-fedora-bat...
I don't know, I had nothing but problems with my (8th gen? Don't remember) XPS. Mostly small things that have workarounds, such as fan being always on when running Linux, but still annoying. My current MacBook pro feels much better in terms of build quality.
Real question: Do you truly think the XPS is comparable to the Framework? I’ve no experience with the Framework so genuinely curious. OP seems less than impressed?
And yes, I'd say an XPS compares in build quality to a MacBook Air, and has so many benefits over a Mac that it's not worth listing.
I don't know about the Air but I've used both and it is certainly not a match for MacBook Pro.
> has so many benefits over a Mac
Curious, such as what? I'm not invested in the Apple ecosystem at all, but I think MacBook (Pro) is the best developer laptop available.
Definitely a bit worrying, since this is practically the first real test that someone can perform and feel when picking up a prototype.
Whereas the old MacBook 15s feel like they were carved out of a solid block.
Consider giving the male plug a soft whack with a hammer. Mild deformation can lead to better retainment
> <p>I like small laptops, so I ordered the Framework 13. [...] <p>I’m glad I [ordered the DIY version], because assembly was actually FUN.</p>
I think in total, the curl loading time was about half of the in-browser page. Both loaded in the end, I just happened to be more patient with curl because I know the server is busy and it's not just a stupid javascript dependency that I'm waiting on.
And finally an optional discrete graphics card. (And not NVIDIA, at that.)
Interesting stuff. I’ll pay definite attention to their products when seeking my next laptop.
Other things I’d like: option of touch/stylus support on the screen; option of more keyboard buttons, like the extra four my ASUS Zephyrus G15 has (dedicated volume-up/volume-down/mic-mute/something-else buttons is so good and I mildly dread going back to something without this); and cluster the function row please! (that is: Esc, gap, F1–F4, gap, F5–F8, gap, F9–F12, preferable gap, Delete). I’d also prefer taller arrow keys, extending lower than the rest of the keyboard, but understand that the basic modular design is incompatible with that. And maybe better speaker arrangements… 180° or more screen hinge… yeah, I suppose I could keep on going, it’s definitely still some way off my ideal laptop, but it’s looking pretty good.
I own a Thinkpad X1 Carbon from 2018 and to be honest I've never had to upgrade it so maybe modularity and upgradeability isn't as important to me personally...
I don't understand how you're supposed to use it. All but one of the six "expansion slots" are used to have a normal laptop: charging port, card reader, headphone jack, HDMI, ethernet, and finally you get to choose between having 1 USB A port for your mouse or 1 USB C slot for charging your phone. Connecting a keyboard just is not possible without disconnecting your mouse. Yay?
Dongles at excessive price points (45 euros for a network jack that comes standard on any old laptop?!) is something I associate with (web comics about) Apple people. For years I was so hoping Framework would launch a ~15" version at a reasonable price by the time I needed a new laptop, and now it has (well, still a ~9-month wait if you order today(!)) but then it was actually announced and, while geeking out on pre-release footage, I noticed it's not actually a usable laptop without a bunch of dongles :'(
The bonus is that you get to pick your i/o. I have a display port adaptor because I definitely do not want HDMI and I don't know of many laptops that come with that at all.
I do think they could find a way to cram two USB C ports into a single card or come out with a 1.5x sized card that could fit two USB type A. I understand why this is difficult, but there is plenty of space in the chassis for it. The cards themselves are not space efficient (but the size they are does give designers a bit of flexibility, so it's a game of trade offs).
So then I guess µSD is the next to go. While a regression from the status quo (when you buy, y'know, any other laptop for half the price), I could live with that being external. Then there's 3 slots available for USB, which is what I have today as well. It's fewer than I would want, and would thus expect from a hacker laptop, but it's workable.
I fully understand what you're saying about the advantage of picking what you want to have on it (let's ignore that every port costs extra and isn't just a configuration). Laptops used to come with both VGA and HDMI: being able to choose is indeed a boon. I don't know what happened to dual video output (how many hackers use multiple monitors?), but I'm old enough to feel like it being an either-or situation is also a regression from how I am used to things being. (I am reading HN currently via a VGA-to-HDMI adapter because, indeed, this laptop has no VGA anymore and replacing a functional screen at the optimal-for-me resolution felt wasteful for both, well, waste and for my wallet.)
It's built into the 13" version as well.
> when you buy, y'know, any other laptop for half the price
Reading some of your comments here, you seem to have a huge misconception about the point of these laptops, and who they are for. If you are price sensitive, you are probably not going to buy a Framework laptop. They are not trying to compete with the $700-$1000 range of laptops.
If you are the kind of person who routinely uses most or all of the 10 various ports present on some laptops with fixed ports, this laptop is probably not for you. Most people do not need all those ports. Four or six ports is generally fine for most people, and it's a bonus that the Framework lets them customize what those ports do.
You seem to be constantly arguing about these shortcomings, when they are not in fact shortcomings to most people. Please... let it go?
A cost always has to match the value that the product brings to either the buyer themselves or to a cause they care about.
For a modular laptop that has real hack value and good Linux support, I really am willing to pay a rather large premium. For example, I also bought a Fairphone which easily costs three times what comparable specs would otherwise set you back, but I really do value what these products both aim for (support for open software; sustainability through longevity). I don't think I'm being "price sensitive" if I say that ~double is too steep for a product that is neither significantly better for me nor for the planet¹. Am I?
¹I never had a laptop physically break in some way, so non-modular hardware that I own also simply lasts until developers decide they want to have another layer of indirection and we collectively get to upgrade anyway. Fairphone's premium partially goes towards more sustainable material sourcing and fair wages
> You seem to be constantly arguing
It feels like that, yes. I don't know why. Is there a better way I can approach these topics? Some way to frame it differently in my head so it's not arguing, but more constructive somehow. Not that everything here has to be constructive and helpful, like, discussing a topic is not necessarily only saying how wonderful everything is because it simply isn't always wonderful, but it still feels like all I do online is argue and complain. The option that I can see is to simply not post when the message isn't positive, and I've tried that in the past, but being a passive observer is also rather meaningless or dull. Is there another way to improve this that you know of?
For what it's worth, it did help me to post this because someone pointed out the headphone jack is actually built in, and that made me think "okay and then I can also forfeit the SD slot and then it works out". So Framework is still an option, and maybe I'll love the product if I decide to get one. But how to get to this point without making people feel like... well, like this I guess:
> Please... let it go?
Hmm probably my taste in laptops but every laptop that's come into my household over the past decade (about 8?) have had HDMI ports. Unless you mean ones that don't come with DisplayPort? Then yeah, I only seem to see USB-C ports that you have to use a dongle for outputting to DP.
- Charging port? Agreed.
- Card reader? Nope. I haven't used a card for data storage in a decade.
- Headphone jack? Nope. One is built in, but I've switched to bluetooth headphones, so I wouldn't waste a slot if it wasn't.
- HDMI / Display Port? Nope, see the comments below about a hub.
- Ethernet? Nope, see the comments below about a hub.
I use a USB-C hub at home and at the office. They have an HDMI port, an ethernet port, power in, and two USB-A ports for my mouse and keyboard. I leave them at the desk, so I just have to sit down, plug in the one cable and I'm ready to go. I can drop down my Macbook or my Framework in the same spot and I'm ready to go. It's convenient enough that I don't understand why you wouldn't want to go with a hub.
My older Framework only has 4 slots. One slot is USB-C for power, video, keyboard, mouse, ethernet, etc. My second slot has a USB-C FIDO key in it. The other two slots are for.... uh.... nothing? I keep USB-A slots in it just so that the bays aren't empty.
Hmm sounds like your preferred ports!
While I have used HDMI and Ethernet, the vast majority of the time, I need
> charging port, 1 USB for headphones
So that's 4 ports left over for me. (I use Bluetooth mice, WiFi, and my laptop's screen.) Of course that's for a gaming laptop. If I used a laptop for work, I'd want screen outputs and probably Ethernet while I'm at it.
If you're on the go (i.e. using your laptop to charge your phone) then how are you using Ethernet and HDMI?
Of course, in my use case, having all those "expansion slots" doesn't really appeal to me anyway.
But I do think that the repairability is still a big plus.
Please mind your ergonomics if this is genuinely what you use a lot of the time
> If you're on the go (i.e. using your laptop to charge your phone) then how are you using Ethernet and HDMI?
The office has no wifi, and I don't work on a laptop screen all day long. If you mean in a train, then indeed I could go without, but if you mean to disconnect them when not in use, we get back to the point about web comics about dongle folk
But yes when I worked in the office and used a laptop, I plugged it into a dock to split out to screens and connect to the network. (At home I just use a desktop that has all those ports and a dozen to spare!) Never found the need to plug my phone in at work, but I get it if you need all those ports - it makes the modularity a pretty weak selling point for you!
I suspect the vast majority of people out there who use a laptop at work have wifi in their office. Certainly some people might prefer to use ethernet while at their desk, but that sort of thing is always what docking stations have been for.
Maybe I've been buying some strange laptops, but I haven't had a network jack standard on a laptop in more than a decade (and no, they weren't all Apple laptops).
> Connecting a keyboard just is not possible without disconnecting your mouse
I really don't get this. Isn't the most common use case for a mouse/keyboard on a laptop when you're at your desk? What's wrong with leaving your mouse and keyboard (and anything else you only use at the desk) into some sort of dock or hub, and then plugging just that single thing into the laptop when you sit down at the desk? Personally I'd find that preferable; better to only have to plug/unplug one thing when switching between stationary and mobile.
Or do people actually carry around a keyboard and mouse with them wherever they go, and want to use them at coffee shops or wherever you're laptop'ing on the go? Even then, if you're carrying around the bulk of a keyboard and mouse, it hardly seems like a burden to carry around a small USB hub to go with it.
I also just don't get the constant need for so many ports. I have the Framework 13 (four ports), and 95% of the time the only thing plugged into it is a USB-C cable for charging. I get that people use laptops in many different ways, but it seems a little weird to get all worked up about "only" having six ports on the Framework 16. I mean, look at its physical layout! You're not going to get more than six ports without some serious compromises in physical form factor and board design (they'd probably need daughter boards with internal cables to the main board to service any more ports).
The Framework laptop is not for you, and that's ok! It's perfectly usable port-wise for many, many, many people, and your excessive port needs are not all that common.
Old laptop, maybe. How many laptops since 2020 have an inbuilt Ethernet port?
But, yeah in 2018 when buying my previous consumer laptop, I already noticed that some are now trying to be too thin to fit a network port anymore. I really don't care about it being thin, though: I'd rather have good thermals and a big battery for Linux than filling 2mm less of the laptop pocket in my backpack... Still, so far there have always been options with that port
I was figuring that Framework would be a brand to cater to these hacker wishes, hence my disappointment
The X1 Carbon mentioned doesn't have it on current models.
If you look inside a gaming laptop like a Asus G series, the entire back of the laptop is heatpipe and heatsink, shared between cpu/gpu and stretching side to side. The modularity sacrifices this by necessity.
Each connector, slot, screw is a cost and failure addition. Give me all the components soldered on the motherboard with a reasonable price. By the time you want to upgrade all the component are obsolete anyway.
But to each their own, competition and choice is a good thing.
This may be true, but how much will the failure rate increase by? Isn't it worth the added flexibility?
> Each connector, slot, screw is a cost and failure addition.
One distinctive feature of the framework laptop is is minimal use of screws, to make it easier for maintenance (and tinkering I suppose).
I upgraded the RAM and disk in its prime as well, why it lasted so long.
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Dell+Studio+XPS+1645+Battery+Re...
That's actually undesirable for any connectors. Having connectors on separate PCBs is standard practice and lets them flex a little.
Framework improves on that one more step because the adapters are on "rails", further minimizing the movement transferred to the actual USB-C port behind them.
However, framework as a company handled a design flaw on their end in the first gen laptops and more specifically the ones with an 11th gen Intel processor really badly. which is why i won't recommend to buy or buy another one myself. See also Louis Rossmann's video about this.
It has a bad circuit design on the mainboard that can prevent the laptop from starting if the CMOS battery is empty - no matter your main battery charge. The immediate solution is to plug the laptop into the wall adapter and start it. This can happen if you don't use your laptop for about a week or two. Then you just cant start it without external power.
So this turns your laptop with the ability to move and use it on the go into basically a glorified desktop. It cripples its core functionality.
Frameworks offers no fix. They took a while to even recognize that the issue stems from their side. The community forum was already quite pissed. Then framework insists on sending new CMOS batteries which will change very little once that battery drains. They don't accept returns, they dont offer mainboard replacements. They posted how to solder the mainboard to bridge the main battery to jump start the laptop if the CMOS battery drains, but without warranty for that and they don't offer to do it for you.
So in my opinion, this was a clear way of not caring for customers needs in the end and not even standing up for mistakes they made.
Taking apart Dell commercial builds is often nice, well designed plastic holders rather than screws, and thumb-screws where there are screws. The server airflow also seemed pretty rational. But I had a dell consumer grade laptop and it was a PoS. So.. things vary.
i'm also have been around the sun too many times to fixate on the constant tinkering/upgrading of components. been there, done that, got the experience. now, i just want the damn machine to work. i'm well past getting the hardware, but fighting for days/weeks on getting some niche piece of hardware to work. not begrudging anyone that enjoys that, but i'm well past it.
Of course, whatever you or I do, the market will sort it out, and I worry that it won't be kind to ideas like these. (Like, as cool as this is, I probably won't be getting a Framework any time in the next 2 years. I hope they are around and there are even more options for me to pick from when I'm in the market for a laptop replacement!)
Are you and I not the market?
They always come with too little storage, with sometimes (not always) a 400 euros more expensive option having a normal storage size. Better to buy the specs you need and put in an 80-quid SSD yourself, then get that extra RAM a few years down the line when you start to need it and prices are reasonable (example graph https://snipboard.io/r90Bly.jpg for the top result for DDR4 SODIMM 16GB https://tweakers.net/pricewatch/484177/crucial-ct16g4sfd824a...)
I wonder if this is why they started soldering on half or all of the RAM
Its not productive, but it's fun. The whole generative AI field is like a big sandbox full of magic, janky crystal balls.
How about something like OpenBSD?
I've found myself moving back to desktops lately. The price:performance is astoundingly good compared to laptops. And I've found that my computer just doesn't really leave my desk much. As you mention, the ability to upgrade is also pretty great.
I think the big thing, though is that most laptops are "good enough" for most things. So I don't really mind taking an older laptop the few times I do travel.
Most people are probably (mostly) fine with nearly any available laptop you can buy today. Someone that needs battery-driven power might be vastly better off on Apple Silicon. Laptop gamers on a budget are probably better off with something from Acer or MSI. If you need maximum GPU power, then a desktop GPU is probably your best bet. If you need "a lot" of GPU power, a laptop GPU might be enough for you.
And if you enjoy buying some technology and assembling it, a Framework DIY laptop is probably a pretty cool purchase.
I was hoping Intel would disrupt the status quo, but they can't do it if their GPUs are late... or the bigger dies are canceled.
First, it is a huge pain in the ass to migrate to a new computer, so the vast majority of people would be happier with one that lasts.
Second, computers have basically been the same since ~10 years ago for the vast majorities’ needs. Browsing the internet, messaging, watching media, spreadsheets.
The only improvement that really would have made a difference is heat and battery.
And so I was eyeing the Framework 16 announcement, but I'm not sure I'll be happy with the ports situation (especially when a Framework costs ~double what I'd otherwise spend). Luckily, Beyond All Reason (RTS) at my skill level is still playable even at the 10~20 fps that I get near the end of a game.
swap hats, and go into video/photo editing, and the old box feels like a boat anchor to the process.
swap hats again, and start browsing the web, now it's a mixed bag depending on how bloated the devs made the site. my 2019 MBP still handles any and all video streams. it plays back my 4k edits just fine too.
The ports and their positions are configurable. The Framework laptops enable you to have the ports you want in the positions you want. It's essentially dongles but integrated with the chassis and better than PCMCIA cards were.
[1]https://www.who.int/news/item/15-06-2021-soaring-e-waste-aff...
There are external GPU enclosures, so no need for a desktop, even for that case.
Please Framework make Nvidia version!
One thing I’ve learned, most mods just aren’t that necessary. People make mods mostly out of boredom. Once you’ve done enough and gotten over it, you’ll either just use the computer as is or get bored and buy yet another machine to mod.
Lenovo, even with the default warranty, services its ThinkPads around the world. If you purchased a more advanced warranty, Lenovo will send a person to your place of choice within 24 hours on a business day and fix your machine on the spot.
I did get a poor quality ThinkPad one time and it required multiple services; ThinkPads still may be higher quality than those of general consumer brands, but they are far from perfect. the fact that Lenovo is keeping its promise of quality to customers is why I am willing to pay higher prices.
It is not that I do not like Framework. Like the author, I am excited about it. It is the right way to do hardware. However, Lenovo's service (and to an less extent, Apple's) is tough to beat if you are doing mission-critical work especially internationally.