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Comment by enragedcacti | Hacker News Reader

For anyone who is upset with the performance of their dishwasher there is a really really easy thing to try.

First, replace your pods with a box of powder detergent, then add some detergent to the prewash cup on your dishwasher in addition to the normal dispenser. If your dishwasher doesn't have one you can just put some on the door before you close the washer. This gives your dishwasher detergent to work with on two of its cycles rather than just one and in my experience it makes all the difference on really difficult dishes.

The pods are effectively identical to the powder detergent but at a huge cost premium and don't give you the ability to adjust your amount of detergent to match the water hardness in your area which can result in a film on your clean dishes.

for more info there is a great Technology Connections video covering it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Alternatively you can test this by just throwing an extra pod in the bottom of the dishwasher to start with. If it works well then you can consider switching to powder to save costs.

View on HN

Technology Connections' videos are a bit long for my taste. This one and its follow up really only have a few takeaways:

Dirt sensors might mean that deliberately leaving crud on the dishes (rather than rinsing first in the sink) leads to longer and better washes

Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher

The first cycle is just water, before the detergent tray pops open, so put detergent into the pre-wash tray or just straight into the tub to make it do more cleaning in that cycle

But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder

I really don't understand why people espouse this channel. If you watch it for entertainment sure, I suppose this video is better than watching some guys video essay about Man of Steel, but if I just want to learn about something asking me to watch 30 minutes of drivel makes no sense.

Different people have different tastes. I like his videos.

I love his videos. They are not tutorials and so do not need to be concise and to the point. They are video essays from which I learn many things in a good amount of detail, and i have a fun time doing it because he writes entertaining scripts.

I almost always learn things for fun, not because I'm deliberately trying to better myself (turns out self improvement comes easily for me when I don't overthink things).

I'd much rather watch a 30 minute video that's entertaining and teaches me something than skim read a document for a few minutes.

He also tends to go into all sorts of interesting tangents that I probably wouldn't have even found out about if I was researching this stuff myself.

Most youtube videos stop at the "what", whereas his also go into the "how" and "why". Some of us are interested in answering those questions.

Learning how's and why's also gives you tools to think about future things you encounter as well. You get a greater understanding of the world.

I think his videos go much deeper into topics I didn't realize I cared about and I find them fascinating for it. It's not about the destination it's about the journey.

> Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher

Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).

> But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder

I'm not sure damaging your plates is the reason to avoid the extra pod. Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.

Don't know about the pods, but for a while we used DIY dishwashing powder with soda crystals as the main ingredient, and after a while you could definitely notice slight scratching of glassware, and any printing would fade pretty heavily. Not sure if that's a chemical process or simply the abrasiveness of the powder.

Oh, dishwashers are definitely hard on printing on glasses.

I'm not sure about scratches. I can imagine you would get scratches if your detergent (especially crystals) doesn't completely dissolve? I mean, people even sometimes use sugar as a scrubbing agent. Dissolved sugar can't scratch anything, but sugar crystals can.

It's likely chemical.

https://www.maytag.com/blog/kitchen/how-to-prevent-etching-g...

> this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).

American dishwashers heat their own water too - I think this is for cases when the dishwasher has a time limit on how long it will spend heating up the water (perhaps to meet expectations on cycle length).

American dishwashers hook up to the hot water line, vs the cold water line in some other countries. They do have their own heaters, but household models are limited to 1200-1800 watts.

The pre-wash/pre-rinse cycle may only give enough time to raise the temperature 10-15 °F before the regular wash cycle starts. I do not believe they will delay the start of the wash cycle due to the water not yet being to target.

Starting with cold water reduces the effectiveness of the initial rinse, and may reduce effectiveness or prolong the wash cycle.

The initial rinse cycle never heats water. Running hot will help.

Hot and cold is run totally separate in the UK, I still don't think this would do anything...

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I'm assuming you mean they run each source in separate lines. That's the same in the US. The point is that these pipes aren't well insulated so the line has probably cooled even though it is a "hot" line. Running the water a little bit flushes the cooled water out so that only hot water goes into the dishwasher. Because even though it is a "hot" line it gets cold over time if it isn't being cycled. Maybe in the UK you're much closer to the hot water source, but in the US houses are often so big and poorly designed that you need to run the water a bit before you get really hot water from the tap.

At least in Germany, dishwashers are hooked up to the cold water line. No matter what I do with my sink, the dishwasher will never get hot water on its inlet.

Thanks, that was the context I was missing from the parent post. Makes total sense.

> Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.

The edges/sides of my Corelle plates (a layered tempered glass) are rough due to the dishwasher. Also, those with prints have faded significantly.

Yeah this is a common problem with dishwashers and certain types of glass, it’s called “etching.”

> > Run your kitchen sink hot water a little before starting to get warmer water into the dishwasher

> Note: this only makes sense in the US (or wherever else it's common for your dishwasher not to heat its own water).

I don't think this is a US-vs-world issue. Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.

Rather, Technology Connections is suggesting a hack.

Your dishwasher, wherever in the world you may be, will start up by using whatever water it can get for an initial rinse of the dishes, and it will measure how dirty the water is after this initial rinse.

Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water, the dishwasher will detect more dirt, and so it will assume the dishes need more aggressive cleaning, and adjust its program accordingly.

> Your dishwasher, wherever in the world you may be, will start up by using whatever water it can get for an initial rinse of the dishes, and it will measure how dirty the water is after this initial rinse.

> Normally this water will be tepid. But if you make it hot by running your hot tap first, the hot water will rinse more dirt off the dishes than tepid water ...

I might be misunderstanding you, but this definitely doesn't apply everywhere.

I don't know how this works in the rest of the world, but in the Netherlands at least my dishwasher is only hooked up to the cold water, running my tap will have no effect on the temperature of the water my dishwasher receives.

I bought a new dishwasher (and it's not as good as the old one :/), in the instruction manual it says you can use some configuration to tell it it's hooked up to hot water.

It makes sense to hook it up to a hot water line, given things like solar collectors and heat exchangers heating / pre-heating water.

I can't speak for every person's experience, but what I believe is that most dishwashers being sold today, anywhere, are capable of being connected to domestic hot water, or cold water. They will work with both. That's not the same thing as saying every dishwasher being sold can do this, but check your instruction manual. Perhaps it can. As per a sibling comment, decide holistically if that would be a good idea or not.

Unless someone can point me to the existence of regulations saying something like "it's illegal to connect a dishwasher to a hot water line, it's gotta be cold water that the dishwasher heats up itself", then my expectation is that most dishwashers can be connected to either hot or cold, and will heat the water to the correct temperature.

Looking at EU regulations, as far as I can see, they don't regulate the intake temperatures that dishwashers have to accept. What they do regulate is energy usage labelling, and mandating there must be an "eco" mode, what the eco mode must do, and if you get to select multiple modes then "eco" mode must be the default. https://commission.europa.eu/energy-climate-change-environme...

> I can't speak for every person's experience, but what I believe is that most dishwashers being sold today, anywhere, are capable of being connected to domestic hot water, or cold water. They will work with both.

This is not my experience. Nowadays appliances such as washing machines and dishwashers, in Europe at least, only have a cold water inlet.

Apparently modern appliances use so little water overall that it's no longer efficient to connect them to a hot water supply, since they will stop drawing water before the hot water runs through the pipes, and therefore it just wastes the hot water.

Many European machines accept hot water. Any Miele does, and my entry level Bosch (in UK) accepts up to 60C but you have to set some obscure setting on the machine (the manual explains). But I find even cheap machines wash pretty well even without this, and you are right about it it being hot only if the machine is right next to the boiler.

> Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.

No? I'm in Germany, all dishwashers I've ever had were connected to cold water and heat their own water.

That's OK, that's your choice. I believe most dishwashers will work with either.

My dishwasher is connected to a hot water tap and also heats its own water to exactly the correct temperature... it just doesn't need to heat it as much because it's connected to a hot water line.

Here's the install guide of a random dishwasher selling in Germany right now: https://media3.bosch-home.com/Documents/9000521334_L.pdf

It says to connect to a water source with these characteristics:

* Pressure: 0,05 - 1 MPa (0,5 - 10 bar) * Temperature: max 60°C

It doesn't specify a minimum temperature although I assume it'd have to be >=1°C. But it is clear you can connect to either a hot or a cold water line.

Sure, it optionally supports it, but that's an extra water line that'd need to be run.

And what for? Whether the instant water heater or the dishwasher heats the water, it's still going to be the same amount of electricity, the same cost.

Have a look at the overview on Geizhals.de - Almost all current models have optional hot water intake nowadays (like 95%+ of the models from AEG/Bosch/Siemens/Neff/Bauknecht/Miele). This is to further advance the energy-rating. Doesnt apply to the cheaper manufacturers though.

981 of 1027 models from a number of well-known brands have an optional hot water intake: https://geizhals.de/?cat=hgeschirr60&xf=1069_AEG+Electrolux%...

Whether you heat the water in the dishwasher or in an instant water heater, it's still going to be the same amount of electricity for the same cost.

I think in the US people might heat water with natural gas, which is cheaper, but that's not really the case in most rental apartments in Germany.

> Other countries' dishwashers are also connected to the hot water supply.

I think it is more a 110V vs. 230V household power issue. For 110V countries like the US the amps needed to heat up the water would be pretty high or the heat up would take very long. In Europe however I have yet to come across a dish-washer that is connected to the hot water supply.

The US actually has 220V available in most households.

Yes, virtually all US households have 240V service. But virtually none of them have a 240V outlet where the dishwasher goes.

>I don't think this is a US-vs-world issue.

Which country are you in?

I'm in the UK and we only connect dishwashers to the cold supply. Other comments in this thread from NL and DE are the same.

I'm in the UK and have a dishwasher connected to the hot water right now. There is not some country-wide uniform "we".

The manual makes clear this is quite OK.

They work with either hot or cold water. They will heat the water to the temperature they need. They don't work with _too hot_ water, hotter than they would heat it themselves (e.g. >60°C), but that's also outside the range of most domestic hot water supplies (which per BS 8558 should have a draw-off temperature of 50°C at sinks).

As a quick sample, here's the Argos dishwashers page: https://www.argos.co.uk/browse/appliances/dishwashers/c:2961...

Pick any dishwasher at random, go to Specifications -> General -> Water fill. Every single one I picked, all from different manufacturers, said "cold or hot"

Looking at one random choice's data sheet: https://documents.4rgos.it/v1/static/3425118_R_D010

> Maximum temperature for water intake (°C) 60

I wasn't able to find manufacturer recommendations from Argos, but I did find two Swedish manufacturers that support either hot or cold water, but recommend that you use the cold water line. One of them claims that detergents are designed to work better when starting with cold water (presumably this is not the case in the US, where hot-water-only machines are the norm).

> Connect the machine to cold water if possible. Then the dishwasher itself heats up the water during the washing phase and the final rinse, which means that you save about 20 percent of energy. Today's dishwasher detergent works best and tablets dissolve better when the program starts with cold water.

> Dishwashers connected to cold water use around 30 percent less energy than dishwashers connected to hot water. A dishwasher connected to cold water only uses hot water when it is really needed.

https://www.cylinda.se/produktguide/kok/diskmaskiner

https://www.electroluxhome.se/vitvaror/diskmaskin/inspiratio...

Just a note on the hot water supply: Whether this happens depends on three factors:

- Does the dish washer support it? Not all do in the EU.

- Did the plumber install a warm outlet when they set up the connection for the dish washer?

- Does it even make sense from a holistic perspective?

The latter depends on the specific circumstances. For instance, I live in a country with district heating, and here it makes sense, because then I can use cheap heat. My dish washer supports it. But there's no warm outlet installed by the plumber, and currently the heat is mostly from coal, whereas the electricity is mostly renewable, so for the time being I just let it be.

> Plates are often made of some glass-like or ceramic-like material and not that easily damaged by chemicals.

A ceramic is a glass (or the other way around), just of a different material composition. And yes, a dishwasher can easily damage both glassware and ceramic dishes depending on how the glass (or glaze, in the case of a ceramic dish) was formulated.

A common durability test for ceramic engineers is indeed — placing it in the dishwasher.

My US-sold, 2015-purchased Bosch dishwasher handles its own heating.

The first water cycle does not get heated, but all subsequent ones do. I’m tempted at switching it to the cold water line.

Also, try using less soap. Too much soap can interfere with the cleaning or leave soap residue.

FWIW, his videos are long because they're not designed to convey a few practical takeaways—they're usually deep dives into the way that the tech works, and he gets into all kinds of details that aren't useful if all you want is the tl;dr "what should I do with this" information.

However, those details are exactly why I follow his channel! I'm a million times more confident repairing my own appliances than I was before I found his videos, and it's not because he has videos on how to repair my specific appliances, it's because his deep dives into a wide variety of appliances have given me a good intuition for how these kinds of machines work.

He also shows off good features that are worth owning, making us more confident buyers as well. For instance I feel his video on smoke detectors should be required viewing to any responsible homeowner/renter. And he showcases the decline/lack of adoption of proper features in consumer appliances, i.e. all toasters should be variations of the Sunbeam T-20B IMO.

Yes! I actually found him through his Sunbeam toaster videos after my wife and I inherited one—I wanted to better understand how it works. They're every bit as cool as he says.

I've seen a handful of his videos but not the one on smoke detectors. I replaced our batteries this week (once one of them chirps and I hear it, I replace them all, or else they end up with drastically different states of battery power -- which is at least a little bit funny... How do they all not drain power at a similar rate?) and it got me thinking about how very little I understand about these critical devices.

  > How do they all not drain power at a similar rate?

I do not know if each smoke detector drains power at a similar rate (maybe some are in hotter or colder locations in the house), but I do know that the total energy in each battery can vary as well.

Slight variations on the electronics give slightly different characteristics, and hence different power draws... but also, the batteries are also going to have slightly different capacities, so you have random amounts of power draw clustered around a given value, and random amounts of capacity also clustered, so combined you might end up with a detector drawing 70uA on a 540mAh cell, and one doing 50uA on a 560mAh cell, but the cell voltage they start chirping at is exactly the same.

>But don't put two pods in, i.e. one in the detergent tray, and another detergent pod into the tub because these pods are very concentrated and harsh and will damage plates. Only add a little extra powder

This is a strange optimization choice. I'd much rather replace plates slightly more often vs. spend time each night handwashing or rinsing dishes. My philosophy is to put everything in the dishwasher regardless of 'diswasher safe'. If it breaks, I replace it with some other dish/cup brand. In a short time you are left with durable cook and glassware that the dishwasher can clean by itself.

There’s also doubling the environmental impact of already pretty nasty dishwasher detergent.

Dishwasher pods are a lot worse than powder. The pods contain plastic which dissolves in the water. The powder used to contain phosphates (which caused a major disruption to aquatic ecosystems) but doesn’t anymore.

Interestingly I believe in many countries (but not the USA) phosphates were removed from laundry detergent but not dishwasher detergent.

Just as a data point, in the EU phosphates in dishwasher detergents are banned since 2017. Laundry detergents are phosphate-free since 2013. All other detergents are limited to some amount, but I can't find which.

As it is often the case in the EU these regulations are aimed at consumer level products. Industrial level products are regulated differently, if at all. I don't know details.

In France, the "lower-end" pods are wrapped in plastic, but it doesn't dissolve, you have to remove it manually. The more expensive ones use that as an argument: "no need to unwrap! just stick in the machine!". I'm not convinced that for the cheaper ones the wrapping is necessary, but at least it doesn't go (directly?) in the water.

Are you sure? The only pods that has a wrapping that is not supposed to be removed by the user are wrapped in gelatin here (EU).

> gelatin

Wait, does that mean that dishwashing pods are not Vegan?

Apparently not! But there are specific vegan labeled dishwasher pods on the market.

I pay county tax so that they process wastewater before putting it back into the environment.

How dare you use our highly efficient wastewater treatment facilities!

> In a short time you are left with durable cook and glassware that the dishwasher can clean by itself.

While I quite like this Darwinistic approach, I've not actually had this problem other than with printed or gilded patterns. Although I need a better solution for my grandmother's EPNS spoons.

This method fails with aluminum baking sheets and other cookware.

good dishwashers heat their own water

But not for the pre-wash cycle.

Many people also don't clean their dishwashers regularly. You need to remove the filter on the bottom and wash it clean once a month, at least.

Also, the nozzles on the spray arms can become clogged. The easiest method to clean everything is to add one of those "cleaning" tablets to a normal wash. These are just Sodium Hydroxide, which chemically converts accumulates fats and greases into soap.

I have owned my current dishwasher for about 15 years, and I have never once cleaned it. It's working just fine.

Conversely, my wife insists on not pre-rinsing the dishes and that filter gets real gross, real quick. Unless you mean the spinny arms, never cleaned those before.

Next you’ll be telling me she doesn’t pre-rinse the laundry before putting it in the washer!

I guess the best comparison would be, if you have stuff all over your clothes, you'd probably shake the clothes off before putting them in the washer.

EG, I use the 'weed wacker' to cut up stuff, or I am racking leaves, I get pants with plant debris on them. I tend to shake them off first.

That'd be the equivalent of scraping your dishes, not rinsing them

Well, sorta. I find it easier to rince small stuff off, and that doesn't work with fabric really, but your point is fair.

I don't generally have food waste on my clothes though.

you must not have young kids. Food gets everywhere for a while when they are learning to eat.

Giving the filter a quick wash once a week is way less work than pre-rinsing all your dishes.

Presumably plates had the leftovers scraped off into the compost bin before putting into dishwasher anyways.

Some dishwashers have a built-in grinder (similar to garbage disposal units). Yours might be one of those.

At 15 years old it probably does have the grinder. They starting going away about then though, so hard to say without doing more digging than I care to.

> need […] once a month, at least

This strikes me as an abuse of the word “need”, in my opinion.

I keep telling my customers that they don't "need" to patch their Internet-facing Windows web servers in the same sense that they don't "need" to replace the oil filters in their car.

Look, yes, you ought to replace the filter every six months to a year, but will your car stop dead the very next day if you don't? No!

It also won't stop the day after, or the day after that. Ergo, by induction, we come to the conclusion that the 2012 R2 server on RTM patch level is not professional negligence.

It's just simple logic.

It’s a difference of degree, doses of magnitude of degrees. In fact, you should patch your serve on the order of years, just the same as your should patch your fridge filter.

Disclaimer: I live in EU.

I don't like cleaning the dishwasher during normal cycles. I don't like eating more chemicals than I have to.

I clean the (German made) dishwasher when it tells me to using products designed for this.

https://shop.rema1000.dk/varer/145820

and

https://www.fjordbutikken.dk/sterling-citronsyre-til-afkalkn...

The first on removes dirt .. mostly fat I think.

The second removes lime using citric acid crystals. You could use vinegar instead I think.

The water hardness has something to do with the amount of salt the dishwasher uses so it needs to be set correctly.

I don't have any issues with the dishwasher.. I had it for 5 years.

I just do a wash with CLR once every year or so.

https://clrbrands.com/Products/CLR-Household/CLR-Calcium-Lim...

This is probably a 'different problem', in that I have hard water, and calcium buildup is a thing here. It also builds on the plates and everything. So.. I do a full load, all dishes, with CLR. Yes, I do a second wash after.

To give an idea, if I put a pot full of water on the stove, and boil it to empty, I'll end up with a solid disc of calcium and other elemets at the bottom, about 1mm thick!

Wow, that's a lot of dry residue on water. I guess that you don't get much foam from soap and/or shampoo.

Do you use filters for drinking water or just bottled water?

I have to use a lot more soap, for example, if I wash my hands, I have to wet them, then soap them up without them being near the water, then after they are very agitated, put them under the water. The soap instantly disappears.

I have a cooler with delivered water. I probably could drink the well water, how much calcium and such does milk have? But I'd have to test it more often.

Our water also contains a lot of calcium.

The cleaning program is probably executed every two months or so. I'm assuming that the dishwasher can sense if the pumps it contains use more energy to pump water (I know pumps that can give the user this info but I think this is an estimate based on some magic numbers from the designers of the motor control software).

It might be also a simple timer. :)

Phosphates keep the dishwasher clean for much longer. I just add the phosphates back to my powder. So much simpler and the environmental concerns have proven to be total bullshit. Phosphates can be managed at the waste water treatment facilities. Unless you are washing dishes in a river, the regulation should happen at the discharge point.

There's an entire follow-up video to this that points to errors in his original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&t=2223s

None that go against the thesis- though there's a lot of additional information that's pretty interesting.

That's incorrect -

1. He points out that a powder Detergent by itself is less effective than a combination of powder and gel. Something that the pods provide built in.

2. His own experiment with the prewash were completely underwhelming, showing nearly identical results in addition to not proving any different in the final result.

I couldn't find where he says the powder alone is worse than powder and gel. There is a section discussing how any gel detergent will have at most one out of enzymes and bleach- is that what you're thinking of? The actual test you refer to happened in the first video. I don't think it's too surprising. Dishwashers work pretty well!

Also worth checking your dishwasher manual to see if it has a minimum temperature requirement for the incoming water. If it does, run the kitchen faucet till the water gets as hot as it can before starting the dishwasher. Many cheap dishwashers have a heating element which cannot heat the water to the required cycle temperature unless the incoming water is hotter than a certain temperature. More expensive dishwashers can work with cold or hot water.

My belief is that manufacturers use the same heating elements between europe (240V, but often piped to the cold water line) and North America (120V, but usually piped to the hot water line).

No matter what, North American dishwashers will only be able to draw 1500w, and probably less because they're not always on a dedicated circuit, and have other power needs than just heat. So it's probably not a "cheap diswasher" vs expensive one issue.

I’ve seen no models that are the same across the US and EU market, do you have any evidence for this?

The amount of water heated up in each cycle is small enough that 1500W is not the limiting factor. Maytag recommends connecting to the hot water outlet and recommends a minimum temperature of 120F [1].

The Miele user manual for their USA models recommends connecting to the cold water inlet unless the hot water is known to be heated by a very efficient source [2].

[1] https://producthelp.maytag.com/Dishwashers/Product_Info/Dish...

[2] https://media.miele.com/downloads/05/c4/00_96106053F20B1EDDB...

> recommends connecting to the cold water inlet unless the hot water is known to be heated by a very efficient source

Huh? How does it matter to the dishwasher?

It doesn’t. They just assume that the user is looking for the most efficient solution. There are pros and cons though. The delicate crystal cycle uses a very low temperature and will only work with cold water. Some of the faster cycles will only be as fast as claimed if the supplier water is already hot.

I haven't checked code - but since my wiring had the dishwasher and garbage disposal shared on a single 20A, I would expect that each now have a requirement to not consume more than 1200W.

At 1200W and a 2.5 gallon wash cycle, I'd expect heating from 70 to 130F would take about 20 minutes. Unless the pre-rinse cycle was extended, I would expect this would mean the soap was released at the start of the wash cycle before the water was to temperature.

... And don't forget to check that your dishwasher actually is hooked up to hot water, not cold.

I don't think many people outside of the US actually hook their dishwasher up to hot water? And dishwashers work just fine in eg Germany.

(Though they might have different dishwashers in Europe with better heating?)

I'm rather confused about that as well. My dishwasher is hooked up to cold water because that's the only option.

Why would it be the only option? It seems to be the standard in Europe, but not sure why you couldn’t connect it to the hot water line instead. This is especially true if you have an efficient hot water source like solar or a heat pump water heater.

You have to hire (or be) a plumber to make the change. Often getting access to the pipes can be tricky. Depends on how your house is though. Sometimes this is as simple as connecting the hose to the other valve already in place, sometimes this means opening up the wall to get access to the pipes.

Normally the only pipe that's available to dishwashers is the cold water pipe.

However, even if you had hot water available, it would actually be to hot. The hot water entering can be much hotter than the required 30C for the lowest setting, so the dishwasher would need to cool the water.

In the U.S. dishwashers are almost always installed directly next to the kitchen sink, where either the cold or hot line can be easily tapped with a tee valve. I guess plumbing/kitchen layout is done differently in Europe.

As for heat setting, what’s the reason to be concerned with tap water being too hot? I don’t think plumbing code would allow water to be available at the tap that was hot enough to actually damage any type of utensil/drinkware/etc? I presume the only reason there might be a lower heat setting is simply for energy savings, which is kind of moot if you’re instead pulling hot water from the efficiently heated water supply.

America's Test Kitchen, back when it was good (AKA when Chris was in control), said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors of liquid as possible. With that advice, I've had good results 100% of the time.

>said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors of liquid as possible. With that advice, I've had good results 100% of the time.

this seems like bad advice. Setting aside the question of whether the colors actually do anything, once this "advice" is known it's only a matter of time before inferior brands add a mix of food coloring to their detergent pods to look more premium.

> America's Test Kitchen, back when it was good (AKA when Chris was in control), said that the easiest thing to do was just use the pods that had as many colors of liquid as possible.

1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed.

2. What exactly is so special about the colored liquids? What is the chemical make-up of them and their purpose? And are the liquids the same between difference brands? Is the red of one the same as the red as another? Or is the red of one have an equivalent to another (brandA->red = brandB->blue)?

Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:

> Chemistry expert and former detergent chemist here, chiming in. Modulo some small semantic differences, you're 100% spot on. Functionally, there is zero difference in the formulations. Every powder dish detergent on the market comprises the same functional components, though the exact chemicals selected may vary. It's always some combination of detergent, anti-deposition agent, water conditioners, strong base, oxidizers, enzymes, buffers, "processing aids", and what I call "foo foo juice" - colors and fragrances.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...

> 1. I don't see any/much difference in pre- and post-Christopher Kimball ATK. The rest of the senior staff is basically the same, so I'm not sure what would have changed.

The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference.

> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting. By some account the liquids to nothing practical:

Uh, yeah, by definition I'm appealing to authority. Namely the authority of the people who did the comparison testing in America's Test Kitchen. That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.

> The direction completely changed. Now it's all about fancier foods and restaurant stuff. Compare an episode from 2010 to now. Complete difference.

Is the fanciness of ATK any different that CK's Milk Street? Season six of the latter had Jordanian, Brazillian (pizza), Turkish, falafel, Mexican, Greek cuisine; season five had Ethopian, Japan, Ukraine, Crete, etc:

* https://www.youtube.com/@ChristopherKimballsMilkStreet/video...

If anything it's Kimball that seems to have gone in the high falutin' direction. Regardless: if fancy is where the viewers/audience numbers are now, then that's the direction that either/both shows have to go to. What was done in 2010, or whenever, is irrelevant if the landsacape has changed.

> That's literally why I watch it: because they know better than me and they put in the work.

That's fine, but the authority should at least explain why so the more curious viewer could dig into things more. The YT link to the Technology Connections videos is to a comment by a chemists that breaks things down:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU&lc=Ugxn7pFkryB_j...

For example:

> Some pods, such as our top pick and runner-up pick, contain additional liquid cleaning agents in separate chambers that release when the PVA film dissolves. This design keeps liquid and powder separate until they are dispensed, allowing detergent boosters that best operate in liquid form to combine with powder detergent during a dishwasher’s cycle, enhancing their effectiveness.

* https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-dishwasher-d...

> Because unless you know what the liquids are/do, you're just cargo culting

Right. Specifically, its the kind of advice that even if it works on the market at the time it is written, if it gets popular, it is very trivially subject to gaming in the way that gives truth to Goodhart's Law. "More colors of liquid in the pod = sells better" is an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.

> [...] an obvious target for trivial optimization with no change in substantive composition.

On the other hand, if they care enough to manufacture the pods with multiple liquid compartments, why not put the good stuff in them? I don't think the chemical composition will meaningfully change the cost.

I think the point is that those pods with all the colours of liquid as well as the tablet of powder at back are actually no more effective than plain old store brand loose powder, yet they cost 5 times as much.

> why not put the good stuff in them?

Because the good stuff may cost more than the 'placebo', and given each pod can cost 10-30¢ each, small amounts matter in terms of margin.

Those colored pods made little sense to me. Do those different liquids get released at different times? Saw someone test it out on YouTube that showed not be the case. Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed? If not, then, what's the point?

> Or do they have some sort of unstable reaction when they get mixed?

Yup this is what it is. My understanding is they have different enzymes that clean better but need to be mixed at the time of washing.

That was probably their brand-neutral way of saying to use Cascade Platinum. Not to sound like a shill but that’s the only product that’s actually worked well for my current dishwasher. Everything else leaves a lot of residue or doesn’t actually clean.

I found good results with the pods too - either cascade platinum or the finish powerball ones.

One other thing made a difference between good and bad cleaning in a load - plates near the dispenser.

The detergent dispenser is in the door and putting plates on the bottom rack sort of between the bottom rotating arm and the dispenser seemed to interfere with the pod. It would prevent or delay dissolving the pod and mixing with the water. leaving some free space in the bottom rack in that location was key.

I switched to buying powder from Amazon because the local supermarket only carries pods now. Huge cost premium is right.

The same for washing machine detergent. Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.

In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.

> Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.

I pay so that I don't have to add yet another thing to my increasingly limited free time. The older I get the happier I am to pay extra so I have to do less.

> The same for washing machine detergent. Why anyone would pay $$$ to have water come with their detergent is beyond me.

Because powder detergent (no matter if for laundry or dishes) has a nasty tendency to pull in moisture from the air, leading to it clumping up and getting ineffective. If you have a family with small children that produce a lot of dishes and laundry, you may get away with it but if you're single / DINK no way.

> In the same vein, antifreeze now comes "premixed" with water. Gaaaaah. I just keep looking till I find the lonely 100% antifreeze jug.

That one is because most people don't use distilled water to dilute, but tap water instead... which can carry serious issues, either because it dissolves the piping (see e.g. Flint water crisis) or because limescale builds up in the engine where it's hot and eventually clogs up, leading to engine failure.

I've never had any trouble with either of your points.

I'll have to try Amazon. Anything other than tablets seems to have gone outright extinct in UK supermarkets. Some brands (e.g. Morrison's value) have their tablets in tear-open plastic sachets, so I can break it and put 1/3 straight in for the pre-wash, but I expect they'll switch to the dissolvable wrap type soon (which is probably a good thing for the environment)

> to match the water hardness in your area which can result in a film on your clean dishes.

Or invest in a water softener. They’re a one-time expense and almost no maintenance (aside from a small expense/maintenance for salt), and are beneficial for a number of things:

- improved appliance longevity

- eliminating scale buildup on toilets and faucets

- improving the health of your skin and hair

- everything cleans more easily

I wouldn't say almost no maintenance—the water softener is the single highest maintenance appliance I own. I can never manage to stay on top of the salt input that's required.

I fill mine twice a year, with about 5-6 bags each fill. Maybe there are different sizes, but when I was shopping around, most seemed to have about the same capacity.

So for me, I'd say something that takes me about 30 minutes to do (including the trip to get the salt) twice a year is fairly low maintenance.

Not an option for renters, who also don't have the luxury of the option of fixing or replacing bad dishwashers.

Also, when I lived in the Midwest I could barely tell the water softener was there. I would descale my kettle and the first pot already had a thick layer on it. I now use a countertop RO system.

> when I lived in the Midwest I could barely tell the water softener was there

I guess it depends on how hard the water is, I suppose, but could also be the type of softener. I'm not sure, I haven't done a lot of research on it, as it seems to just work.

But in my experience, I can tell a huge difference (vs. the house we moved from that didn't have a softener). I never see any scale on our appliances, faucets, shower doors, etc.

When showering, I can tell when I've forgotten to refill the salt just from the feel of the water.

When I was setting up our Bosch dishwasher, there was a water hardness option. The machine has a built-in salt tank and is fully capable of regulating water hardness on it's own. You just have to top it up every now and then.

I think that this advice from Technology Connections is bad advice. I was having huge problems getting my dishes clean in early-mid 2020. I thought my dishwasher was broken and needed to be repaired, and then it started working again.

What made it stop washing? I had switched to powdered detergent because I couldn't find pods due to COVID shortages. When I found pods again, I bought them. I've never had problems since.

This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me if it’s true that pods are just water-soluble wrappers around the same detergent.

Is there a case that they’re something else?

I don’t know if this happened here, but sometimes if the soap door is time released water infiltrated the chamber and it cakes up and doesn’t release properly. My observation is this happens less often with pods likely because they don’t dissolve rapidly enough.

The colorful liquids (or equivalent) in the pods are surfactants and other fun things that are not practical to formulate as powders. So they really do clean differently.

Of course, there are other ways to formulate things, but they all have tradeoffs.

Dishwashing powder 100% has surfactants in it.

I can't find any pods that are just water-soluble wrappers of the powdered detergent. All of them have additional compartments in the pods for other chemicals, and all the pods do clean a hell of a lot better than just powdered detergent.

I had switched earlier this year after seeing the Technology Connections video, and I'm ready to switch back. The pods are just better.

I stopped using tablets and started using powder after watching this exact video by Technology Connections. Highly recommend the watch.

The advice from that video to put powdered detergent in the prewash has been a huge improvement to our dishwashing. We now put the powder in the prewash section, but keep using tablets for the main wash just because of inertia I suppose, but it works great.

Also helpful: running the sink's hot water before you run the dishwasher, until it heats up, so that the dishwasher has access to hot water from the moment it starts.

Which can waste a bunch of water. I do mine by hand and am often done before the hot water arrives.

Then your house was built badly. But you can repair it by installing an instant water heater that goes under the sink.

You would need two since the dishwasher usually has its own dedicated hot valve

That, or a tee fitting.

Yea, tee fittings are cheap.

The world outside the US just hooks dishwashers up to the cold water supply and it washes just fine. Are US machines different?

Yes. North American dishwashers don’t heat the water during the prewash cycle because the duration in time is too short and the 120V electrical service can’t supply enough power to heat the water quickly during that time.

European dishwashers use 240V (like everything else in the house) and so they can heat water much more quickly.

This electrical difference is also reflected in the fact that electric kettles (for boiling water) aren’t nearly as popular in North America as they are in Europe. Technology Connections also did a video on this topic [1].

[1] https://youtu.be/_yMMTVVJI4c

As a former British person I'm not sure this is true now. The 220V supply part is true, but you can buy electric kettles at Costco and they boil plenty fast on 120V and everyone who drinks tea has one in my experience.

It's sort of a physical impossibility. If your kettle is limited to 1500W, it's always going to be slower than a kettle operating at 3000W.

Just checking Amazon, most popular local (230V) kettles are 2200W, with some 2400W options. Checking Costco, US kettles are 1500W. Assuming equal efficiency, the European kettle takes between 62% and 68% the time it takes a US kettle to boil the same water

Of course equal efficiency isn't necessarily a given. The insulation and the design of the heating element can have a notable impact on heating time. And for small amounts it likely doesn't matter that much. But assuming equal construction it is still a very notable difference.

The follow-up to the video is worth linking to, if only because it explains why liquid detergent is crap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll6-eGDpimU

Although I generally like Technology Connections, I've always found that particular TC video hilariously wrong. Every dishwasher I've ever owned has been basically a sterilizing machine, not a cleaning machine. I always wash all my dishes by hand to the point where there is no visible food on them before I put them into the dishwasher, because if I don't do that half my dishes come out of the dishwasher with food crud still on them.

And no, I'm not talking about crappy, dirty, worn-out dishwashers. I'm talking about state-of-the art modern dishwashers. I thought it was normal for everybody that you had to wash all your dishes by hand before putting them in the dishwasher. I thought TC was basically making a big joke, but after TFA I'm thinking maybe dishwashers do exist (or did exist?) that actually ... wash dishes?? And don't take 4 hours to do it??

Did you test the recommendations?

I’m able to put dirty dishes in mine and have them come out clean.

What are you talking about? This is either a US thing as usual or you are being duped.

I've always thought clothes washers washed clothes but dishwashers don't actually wash dishes and everybody knows it. I thought it was just a universally shared joke that everybody was in on, like "Grape Nuts contain neither grapes not nuts, and dishwashers don't actually wash dishes because of course they don't."

Only now I'm beginning to think I've been out of the loop.

I think you've been very unlucky with dishwashers.

Yeah, you have definitely been out of the loop. I’ve used at least 5 different dishwashers in the past 20 years, and never had a problem with them actually washing dishes after just scraping off the food. Once in a while I’ll have an issue with something stuck on a utensil that was nested with another in the silverware bin, but that’s a loading problem not a dishwasher defect.

I will routinely make pancakes, have a glass measuring bowl with pancake batter still in it, throw it in the dishwasher, and it comes out clean.

Dish washers clean dishes. If they aren't doing so for you, you're doing something wrong. I have never rinsed dishes. The only time something comes out dirty is if it's an oven pan that has something fiercly burned to it, or a pot of milk or something that I burned.

I think some dishwashers are somehow worse performers than others. In the flat I was in before, the landlord installed Ikea dishwasher was terrible (I don't know who was the actual manufacturer). If I'd put a butter knife in there that still had traces of butter going in, they would still be there coming out. Somehow, this even happened when using the 70 ºC program. I even tried using the most expensive pods, for the same result.

In the new flat, equipped with some mid-range Siemens, I don't have this problem anymore. I use the exact same pods, same butter, and same knives. Hell, even the "quick 1h 45º" program gets rid of pretty much everything, even using the cheapest pods.

I've never done more than scrape the large bits of food off my dishes. My current dishwasher is probably 10 years old.

Our dishwasher washes dishes just fine, and it's just a small crappy countertop model

Sounds like you are choosing appalling dishwashers. I don't even rinse my plates and they coe out absolutely fine. If they don't I know the filter needs cleaning or the machine needs servicing.

Having used dishwashers on three different continents (US, Europe, Asia), I can attest that they definitely do wash dishes. The only caveat I would add is that when my mid-1990s vintage US dishwasher broke, the modern replacement seemed to be far worse. The cycles took longer and dishes came out dirtier. I always suspected it was some energy efficiency mandate that ruined the dishwasher experience in the US as I have had no such issues in Europe or Asia. Maybe I'll try different detergents next time I'm back in the US...

> I always suspected it was some energy efficiency mandate that ruined the dishwasher experience in the US

The three biggest changes I've experienced:

1. Water usage has gone WAY down, especially for energy star washers. You may see 2.5 gallon pre-rinse/wash, 1 gallon rinse cycle usage now. Heavily soiled dishes are relying on the filtration system to remove the particles rather than spraying gunk back on the dishes.

2. Post-rinse drying cycles use hot water and evaporation/condensation (via stainless steel tubs) rather than hot air. For ceramic/glass this is perfect, but plasticware will not get properly dried.

3. Pre-wash detergent cycles have started to go away. I suspect this is because the additional agents in pods have made the pre-wash cycle less effective. However, this means there may be even less time before the main wash cycle for water to heat - it is hard to tell if there is a rule whether to delay washing until it has water to temperature if the source water was cold.

Energy is a factor for sure ( most of the article goes into why), and also environmental.

Dishwashers (and clothes washing machines) used to use phosphates, but those detergents have been banned for residential use at least in the US.

Are you mis-loading them? Unusually hard water? Wrong detergent?

Every surface you want washed needs line-of-sight to a sprayer, so it's quite possible to load a dishwasher in a way that doesn't work properly.

Certain things are particularly sticky. People used to make glue out of fish for a reason; the one thing I will pre-wash off plates is fish skin.

There's industrial dishwashers used in kitchens that do it in minutes!

Using modern, mid-range dishwashers, I barely need to touch them before loading them. It was hard to break the habit of pre-washing, but that uses up a lot more water than the dishwasher itself (and energy, if you use hot water).

When I did clean them before washing them, so to speak, the short wash cycle would be enough. (Now I use the sensor cycle.)

What you're describing just isn't normal. There are some possible explanations. You might have really hard water. You might not be using high-quality, enzymatic dishwaster detergent. It's also possible that there's something wrong with every dishwasher you've owned, I guess.

I still use the pods in the main dispenser, for convenience, but after watching the TC video, I started dumping a spoonful of loose Oxyclean into the washer before closing the door. That also provides detergent during both cycles, and the difference in cleanliness is night and day.

is oxyclean alright for your dishes / dishwasher?

It's fairly hard to find a cleaning product that's not okay for dishes. Glass is very unreactive and quite hard.

Dishwasher maybe less so, but they're usually pretty sturdy too.

I'm unclear on the answer -- are you saying it's a product that is probably fine then? And for human consumption if theres residue?

I would strongly suspect it's not going to hurt anything. If your dishwasher is leaving residue of cleaners, that's another story, that needs to be fixed whatever you're using.

Does anyone turn the powder into tablets at home? I want to do this because I like the convenience of just grabbing a thing out of a bucket rather than dealing with loose powder. Do you do a mechanical press, or make a slurry in an ice cube tray and wait for the water to evaporate, or some other thing?

Either one sounds like more effort than just pouring the powder into the detergent compartment.

I can understand the convenience factor of pre formed pods, but if I have to spend 15 minutes a week making my own pods from powdered detergent, it seems like I’d be better off just using the powder as intended.

The convenience for me would be in time shifting the labor. Sometimes (read: often) I want to sit and zone out for 15 minutes, but I almost never want to deal with transferring a powdered substance from one container to another, especially not after the rigamarole of loading the dishwasher. In theory the powder could go in first, or at some other time, but my brain just isn't like that.

I poured mine in an old plastic soda bottle which makes pouring into the compartment very quick and convenient

Pods aren't just "effectively identical to the powder detergent" they contain the rinse agent in the pod.

Using just detergent without rinse agent has always had poor results, and it's frustrating running out of rinse agent. Pods don't really cost that much more unless you're buying the ultra family size from Costco.

I use powder in both trays, pre-heat the water, clean my filters, and run citric acid regularly. I still had issues when I lived in a place with hard water. I still sometimes get an occasional garbage smelling result now that I don't.

No amount of "aww shucks" and tier 1 support level of suggestion changes or downplays my observations.

I have found that the bad smell is usually a result of water sitting in the bottom of the dishwasher. and I think it may be due to water dripping off all the dishes after it has finished draining. I try to remember to push the drain button a few times a few hours after a cycle has completed to get all the water out of the bottom.

The pods are not the same, in a modern detergent formulation there are some chemicals that can only exist in liquid form and others in powder form. You can get hybrid pods.

( Myself I prefer Whole Foods 365 brand pods because they have all the detergent + enzymes but none of the ethoxylated alcohols or the worst chemicals)

Where I live you cannot get powder dishwashing agents in super markets and Amazon suggest weird imports at 10 times the premium.

I smash between a quarter and half the pod for prewash and the rest in the compartment following that technology connection video where he talks about the problem.

I find little life of quality change.

In my experience it is not the amount but the composition of the pod/tablets that makes a huge difference. My machine (Miele) on the same cycle program has excellent results with Dreft pods, Ok'ish with Sun tablets and very poor with Finish.

I've heard that adding a teaspoon of TSP can be helpful because a lot of the dishwashing detergents are now phosphate free.

I'm not sure how I would go about adding a teaspoon of Thrift Savings Plan.

Actually they mean a teaspoon of a teaspoon

N.b.

TSP == Trisodium phosphate. Available at many stores.

If your water is hard, this will prevent water spots or scale from forming.

Do not use TSP! Use sodiumtrippolyphosphate, aka STP, STPP. TSP is as caustic as lye. You can find STP on Amazon.

Mix 30% STPP with powder for hard water. 10% for soft water.

Isn’t the problem that they regulated the phosphates out of the powder detergent, so it stopped working too?!

Good advice! What are they thinking when they get rid of the pre wash cup?

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