Electric cars probably are the future, but I don't like this future. They don't have a soul.
Electric cars probably are the future, but I don't like this future. They don't have a soul.
I've driven in dozens of countries, sometimes very far from fuel stops, but I've never once had the need to carry any additional fuel inside my vehicle. I think the furthest I can ever remember being from a petrol station is about 120 miles.
This is the big advantage.
> not 5 hours
This one is mixed. You can charge the EV at home for ordinary use. That's better.
For road trips, you can use DC fast charging to add a bunch of range in 30 minutes. This is worse, requiring combining charging and meal stops.
PHEVs are a decent compromise, though: you can do basically all of your driving electrically, and then burn a little bit of gas on road trips.
> It does not get worse with every year
Sure gasoline vehicles become more maintenance heavy and terrible over time. EV degradation is probably around 10-15% range lost after 5 years typical today.
> May be except maintenance
Odds are you don't deal with brake pads anymore, and yes, no oil changes. The sheer torque of most models feels like a spaceship when you press down the gas pedal.
Furthermore: for all the whining people do about "sitting around waiting for it to charge", those people conveniently leave out all the time they spend driving to/from and waiting at a gas station...whereas many EV owners just get home and take about 30 seconds to plug in.
So, for the tradeoff of having to wait ~20 minutes instead of 5 to fuel up on a long trip, you get to not spend ~5 minutes every week or two driving to a gas station and filling up.
Most Americans don't even drive enough per day to make it necessary to have level 2 in-home charging.
Leaving home on full charge gets me around 280 miles on freeway (Circa 310 just pootling round town ev’s are opposite to ice like that).
It’s better to drive at normal 75mph ish freeway speed and just fast charge rather than worrying about range and ‘hyper miling’.
The 800v system is great real world.
We are on west coast and charging infra is decent though even non Tesla.
No, absolutely not. Who brings 160 lbs of gasoline with them anywhere? That's twice as much as an average cars gas tank. How many people do you know that have ever brought any gas on any trip ever?
The "advantage" of being able to drive 12+ hours without taking a couple hours to charge is absolutely ridiculous. It's not something people do or should do. The only reasonable circumstance is if you're on a camping trip or something, and somehow driving hundreds of miles without passing a source of electricity- in which case yes, use a gas/ethanol car.
In my honest opinion, it's a ridiculous demand that you should be able to drive 800 km without taking more than 5 minutes to stop. It's minimum 6 hours of driving, and like 30-40 minutes of charging. It's petulant to complain about that like it's a real issue.
The real advantage is cost. It costs a lot of money to get a large battery that can charge quickly, when a $20k Civic can do it. Smaller the EV, the slower the charge, and the more inconvenient it is.
One person shouldn't drive 12 hours, but it's not bad for two people to split. It's not unreasonable at all if you have three drivers.
Yes, you'll probably stop somewhere to eat and use the restroom. If that somewhere happens to have decent food, and a fast charger, and the fast charger doesn't have a line longer than your mealtime, then an EV would probaly work out. If those stars don't align, your long day of driving got even longer.
I don't bring gas cans on long trips, because gas stations are ubiquitous; but I have enough gas equipmemt at home that I keep them at home, and I use them to fill up my cars at home regularly to keep the gas fresh, and avoid paying the markup of my nearest gas stations.
PHEV is a better choice than either IMHO. You get two year maintenance windows, you get long distances between fueling, you can use electric for local trips if it makes sense, you can live in an apartment with no charging infrastructure, you get reduced brake wear, you get a lot of low end torque if that's relevant to you. You probably lose out on cargo space though, cause PHEVs tend not to have handy places to stash the batteries. Oh, and internet people will argue that it's the worst of both, and you'll have to ignore them.
I pretty regularly drive between Washington, D.C. and northern New Hampshire. That's about a 9hr drive under good traffic and weather conditions, 575mi. My truck gets about 13.5mpg and has a range of around 300mi, so I have to stop for fuel once. It's nice to get out of the car every 4hr or so anyway. If I was driving, say, a Rivian that gets ~400mi/charge I would also only have to stop once, but the stop would take about an hour and a quarter [1]. I could probably live with that, and I'd appreciate not burning as much dino juice.
However, I recently did that trip with the truck totally freighted, towing a two axle trailer. I got 9.5mpg, which is about 65% what I get empty, putting my range at ~200mi/tank. I had to fill up twice. A Rivian under similar conditions will be getting about 260mi/charge. That means I'd have to charge twice, adding 2.5hr to what's already a 9+hr trip.
Another thing my truck can do is go off road. It has a mild suspension lift, and locking differentials front, center, and rear. It runs slightly taller than stock tires to give it more ground clearance. I can roll over 2-3ft high rocks without having to think too hard about it. Under these conditions, I expect to get even worse than 65% of my empty highway mileage. 50% is common, and it can even be as bad as 35% in really technical terrain. Ignoring the fact that the Rivian would likely break if I tried to take it places my truck can go off road that translates to something like 150-200mi/charge. And if you're actually taking it off road you better plan for plenty of reserve, because there aren't any chargers there.
> Who brings 160 lbs of gasoline with them anywhere?
Someone who wants to get there, most likely. If you calculate you need to make it a certain distance, and you know your expected fuel burn rate, then you can count up the number of jerry cans you need. In this case they needed 5 of them.
So it's a question of capability, right? My truck is in some ways more capable than the EV alternative. One capability I have is to be able to throw some cans in the back and extend my range. Another capability I have is being able to travel long distances under adverse conditions.
Crucially, though, the capability my truck has that the competition lacks is I can fix it and maintain it without having to hire a specialist. It has simple, impeccably engineered field serviceable systems.
And it cost 1/6 what a Rivian would.
If someone makes an EV with these capabilities, I'll buy it, even if it does cost as much as a damn house. Until then, I'll stick with my old truck.
[1] https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38944499/2022-rivian-r1t-...
10 to 80 is about 40 minutes. So not quite as bad as you're saying.
Let's say I was towing. That would give me ~180mi/charge. On the 575mi trip I'll have to charge 4 times, so 2hr40min.
So that's actually worse than I calculated before in both cases.
EDIT: it seems to me this technology isn't ready for production yet. Or, at least, it's best suited for subcompact vehicles that don't get loaded heavily.
EDIT2: I get it, though. If I lived in a city or a suburb and used my car exclusively as a grocery getter + commuting rig, it might make sense to run an EV--if there was a good one available at a reasonable price. But that's the other thing. They're all expensive, unmaintainable, and packed full of useless infotainment garbage and a whole bunch of plastic--just like everything else built this century. So really what's the point of using electrons from the grid instead of gasoline from the pump if I have to get a new car every 5-10yr? Instead, I'll maintain my (currently) 25-30y.o. vehicles s.t. they'll last a further 20 years thereby having prevented something like 10 cars from ever having to be built in the first place. And I own them outright, so no car payment.
You wouldn't start full? Using your numbers, 250*.9 + 180 + 180 makes the trip in two charges. Stopping a couple of times for meals makes it take no net increase in time.
edit: It definitely doesn't work for everyone and every use case, but it's much better than you calculate. The EV road trips I've taken have been slightly inconvenient but the day to day convenience of at home charging makes up for it.
Also I don't understand why you're continuing to edit your message long after I replied.
Sorry, you're quite right. So towing it'll be 2hr of charging for 9hr of driving, empty it'll be 80min for 9hr.
I don't really buy the meals argument, though... I can't recall when I've ever stopped for a meal while driving somewhere. Even on long road trips (like 4k+ mi) I prefer not to eat whole meals during the day as I find they make me less alert and sleepy, especially given the lack of physical activity driving entails. That's not to say it would be impossible, or bad even, to take a few half hour breaks during a day's drive. I hope some day a car manufacturer decides to make a simple, decent, 25+yr vehicle again. No plastic, repairable, maintainable. I'd love to buy one.
I wasn't aware you had replied, my apologies for your inconvenience.
One of the places I've long wanted to go is about 100 miles from the nearest town with a gas station, but the roads are particularly rough so I don't expect to get highway mileage or anything close to it. In my past off-roading I've gotten roughly half my highway mileage, so let's say it costs 200 "miles worth of gas" to get there.
If it takes 200 miles to get in, it also takes 200 miles to get back out, plus some margin for error, plus whatever I burn while I'm there. A few days of cooking and stuff can burn a few gallons, more if I'm also running the fridge, which is really nice on a long trip. Add that I might want to visit a few sites over a few days, and I could easily see needing more than my existing 500-miles-in-ideal-conditions range.
It's trivial for me to carry another 10 gallons, which doubles my highway range to 1000 miles, and that's with one of the most fuel-efficient hatchbacks on the road. A larger vehicle would need quite a bit more.
I simply don't know a way to do that with an EV.
Now admittedly that's a contrived example, but it's a just-slightly-more-extreme version of some real trips I take from time to time, and it's a trip I do honestly plan to take one of these days.
> The only reasonable circumstance is if you're on a camping trip or something, and somehow driving hundreds of miles without passing a source of electricity- in which case yes, use a gas/ethanol car.
But is it, actually, the only reasonable circumstance? That's an exceptionally strong claim.
> Electric cars probably are the future, but I don't like this future. They don't have a soul.
Now you're being honest. You don't like them because they're too quiet. That is a valid opinion.
> I'm not EV fudster
Yes you are ;-).
As far as soul, what is stopping auto makers from making cool looking cars, honestly I don't know. One of the things I thought was cool about the Tesla 1 was that it was a good looking convertible and not something that looked like a rolling doorstop (Prius). Maybe EV will usher in a new generation of car makers that will make good looking cars again, we can hope.
Indeed. Plus locked down maintenance (using DRM to prevent you from fixing your own car), and constant invasive spying (including video from the cars cameras https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-workers-shared-sens... ).
> not something that looked like a rolling doorstop (Prius)
Cars are shaped the way they are today for aerodynamic reasons.
> I live in a large city, I drive a small car and I only drive about 3000 miles per year.
Hopefully you can see that what works for you doesn't work for everyone.
Living in a city and only driving 3000 miles a year... Have you considered not owning a car at all? :)
Given your figures, at 3000 miles per year it would take 108 years for the improved fuel economy of the Tesla S to pay for its added cost over a Kia with comparable build quality.
This is part of the reason you don't see the improved $/mile being so heavily advocated for EV's especially high end ones: The improvement isn't enough to pay for the added cost, unless you're a very heavy user and heavy users have more range, recharging locations, and recharging time concerns.
I own an EV, and love it, but I also suspect it’s going right to the dump after the battery gives out.
Buy an electric Kia or electric BMW then. Both are available here in Norway but the Tesla Model Y is still the best selling car in Norway.
The idea of a transportation machine having a "soul" is ridiculous.
I find the ability to understand the concept of a car's "soul" to a very reliable way to separate them out.
Why? Because "soul" doesn't mean the immortal soul endowed by our Creator. It refers to the feel and responsiveness of a car. The car's personality, if you will. It refers to every unique behavioral trait that the car has acquired through its design and life been driven.
On my old truck the clutch would feel different after my wife drove it. It took a few miles to get the feel back. It drove better with a couple hundred lb on the bed. On my '13 golf I can feel a slight "give" on the steering from wear. I can feel the car and drive it through a corner with the wheels slightly squealing [1]. Thats the edge grip. On the KIA I can feel the difference in the engine and transmission (especially) behavior before and after the oil has warmed up. On the Golf, the shifter is "lazy" until she warms up.
Within 10 miles of getting a new set of tires I know if I hate them or love them. I get a feel for their limits.
I hate renting cars. Despite the low millage, they feel worn and lose. I also feel like a fish out of the water in a car that is not mine.
As you add mechanical/electrical complexity these various feedbacks from the car are washed away. Professional drivers hate these aids. This is widely known in the aviation industry and many planes add artificial feel to give pilots feedback on the fly-by-wire systems.
So ya, a good driver feels as if his car has a "soul" just like a good pilot can feel his plane's "soul". There's no immortal soul in a car, no consciousness, but there is a whole lotta love.
[1] obviously on track days
Unsurprisingly electric vehicles, which do not have clutches or transmissions at all, or temperamental engines with inconsistent power curves, will exhibit little signal in the areas you have tuned yourself to perceive. This does not indicate anything about them in a universal way.
Your response indicates that you are perhaps incurious about the nuances of driving an EV. Since it sounds like you have invested a lot in sensing personality specifics of gasoline vehicles, this makes sense.
Perhaps early EV attempts were muted in their expression of activity personality. Entry level Teslas certainly are not fun to drive in the same way as an old Golf. Have you tried the Ioniq 5?
For starters, I wouldn't call the Golf cheap. As to my "old" truck, if had 30k miles when I traded it in. I used "old" as in "previous". As to the Golf, it has <60k miles on it. As far as Im aware, EVs still have steering columns that loosen overtime.
EV do have their own characteristics, namely low end torque and insane amount of engine braking. They're also heavy hogs. I am not the poster who said EVs lack a "soul", I just explained what "soul" meant to someone who snickered at the idea of a machine having a "soul"; I introduced the idea that the "personality" is better suited and explained why.
I have no bias against heavy, torquey, rear wheel drive sedans - my first car was a crown vic, and I loved it for what it was.
As to my interest in EVs, you're right, I don't like them. I think they are unconscionably immoral in their impact on the environment (by taking precious batteries from hybrids that have a greater impact on CO2) and the labor (ie Congo) market.
But I am not a tech-dinosaur for in transportation. The manual tranny is long dead, having lost any advantage twenty years ago. I believe that hybrids should be highly promoted, no matter how insipid Toyotas are.
Infact, if I'm being completely honest, I dont even like cars. If much rather ride a motorcycle, and I believe that, for environmental reasons, the wider the vehicle the lower its speed limit should be. Cars should be limited to 40 mph by the factory. Trucks to 30, motorbikes 90 :D
Toyotas are boring. BMW and Honda (the cars too) were fun. Cars are expensive appliances, and most people are terrible drivers distracted by their phones.
/rant
A lot of people anthropomorphize machines, as it helps engage our built-in anticipation instincts to track when the machine will be "hungry" or "tired" without expending conscious thought. If the machine starts to sound or feel different, even in ways we can't put into words, that may surface as a sense of "attitude" or "unhappiness", and it may do so long before the difference would be dramatic enough to merit other mention. On-board diagnostics are great at identifying certain malfunctions in the engine and a few other systems, but driveline and suspension are still largely unmonitored except by ear, by feel, and by intuition. And there are still plenty of engine conditions that manifest as a gut feeling long before they set a DTC. Getting something checked out when it feels "off", versus waiting until it fails more obviously, may avert an unscheduled mishap in the middle of a cross-country roadtrip.
There are certainly lots of people who haven't spent that much time behind the wheel, or whose coming-of-age wasn't inextricably linked to the jingle of keys as a symbol of freedom and independence, or whose appreciation of rock and roll doesn't equate the growl of an electric guitar with the growl of an engine. Those people are to be forgiven for not seeing cars as having souls, but that lack of imagination on their part should not limit the imaginations, or the useful instincts, of the rest of us.
EVs have their own quirks and feelings, but there's not such a complicated web of air and temperature and chemistry and hydraulics and cable-stretch and dozens of individual bearings and mounts and linkages behind their behaviors. And they don't have a century of hot-rodding culture built up around them yet, no flames painted on the side, nor any combustion to inspire same. No exhaust notes to tune; if an EV's noises show up in music, it'll be more like Aphex Twin than Van Halen. Which is all well and good, but all of these things move EVs farther from any of the behaviors that we refer to with the shorthand of "soul".
The only critical replacement is brake calipers and fluids: https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modelx/en_eu/GUID-E95DAAD...
Brakes tend to last much longer because the car uses the motor to brake. Some Tesla motors are oil-cooled, some are just air cooled and the reducer just uses grease[1] instead of oil. There are no piston rings, no blow-by, no sliding friction, no wear items, the temperature stays below 100 C, the pressure is always ambient, and the case is completely watertight. The oil/grease can last practically forever.
> I can bring 100L gasoline with me to add 1000 km range on top of existing 500 range.
Driving 12 hours at a time is unsafe and you should not do it. If you are regularly driving 1500 km into wasteland, an electric car is not for you. If you only do it a few times a year, I recommend renting.
> I can charge it within 5 minutes, not 5 hours.
Have you not heard? They can charge 200 miles in 15 minutes.
> It does not get worse with every year
It's a car. They absolutely get worse every year. Driving at high speed over bad roads takes a toll and all cars fall apart over time.
> Electric cars probably are the future, but I don't like this future. They don't have a soul.
Did televisions, before flatscreens replaced them? I don't think so. I think it was just the nostalgia for a time when it was new and important. But a car now is a conveyance. 99.99% cars have as much soul as an elevator- another thing that used to be special and personal.
If you want soul in the thing you drive to work, you always had to buy something special. You did not find it in a Honda Civic. If you want that, buy a motorcycle, or an E100 car. Those things will still exist even if EVs completely replace gasoline, because they just aren't the same thing.
You are not afraid of electric cars replacing racecars, or grand tours through the mountains or deserts or forest. You are sad about electric cars replacing 8 lanes of LA traffic, of I-98 being quiet, of less children with asthma. That's a silly thing to be sad about. The soul of driving is not going anywhere.
[1]: Because I NEVER tire of saying it: grease is amazing. It seems inefficient because it's thick like peanut butter, but it's the best. It's shear-thinning, so that as soon as it starts moving, it spreads into an incredibly thin low-viscosity layer that's just as frictionless as oil. Unlike oil, it never drips off, never needs pressure, always covers the surface. Contamination works itself out automatically (unlike in oil, where it's recirculated). It's chemically and thermally stable. Grease is the BEST.