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Comment by ftyers | Hacker News Reader

For H1B don't they have to show that they are paying at least market rate? And isn't it a factor in awarding the visa?

Here's how it works in practice: You create a job posting that's buried on your careers page and has so many very specific requirements for an underleveled role (because it's custom-made for the H1B person you want to hire) that no local worker can possibly meet them all. Then you half-heartedly phone screen a few people to check the box before throwing up your hands and saying, "We tried and weren't able to find any local workers; we have no choice but to hire an H1B!"

This could all be fixed by making H1B visas an auction system, but all the H1B legislation changes I've seen have been half-hearted at best.

Because both political parties have donors that benefit from H1Bs and it's beyond just tech companies. Even the angry orange man has his hotels applying for H1B visas. Fucking hotels.

The public's lack of understanding of the real motivations of political/business leaders with regards to immigration policy is like a masterclass on propaganda and brainwashing.

Trump actually tried to end H1B, and suspended the H1B program with an executive order. One of his policy decisions I support. Actually the entire platform was centered around immigration.

As soon as it happened though, there were news stories left and right about how "Immigration is our strength" and "The US is a country founded by immigrants". All these sob stories about why we need cheap, exploitable labor to undercut American workers.

Trump didn't try to "end" the program. His administration straight up wanted to close the borders to interns, skilled workers, and their relatives. That goes far beyond H-1B visas.

> All these sob stories about why we need cheap, exploitable labor to undercut American workers.

This is not how the H-1B program works.

Also, they didn't try to stop agricultural workers from entering the US. If you really want to focus on "cheap labor", you may want to start there.

There are actually even more arcane requirements like placing a job ad in a Sunday newspaper with a certain distribution. The ads have bizarre keywords that make it borderline impossible to determine the real job. Those regulations are controlled by the DOL.

> arcane requirements

One of which is some sort of a posted positions/wages or something at work place. ( it doesn't have to be prominent but it has to be there, usually it's in the same forgotten corner where they post labor right rules etc., usually around the water cooler I guess )

During Covid, our company told H1Bs to print those out and put them up in their kitchen fridges since it was their temporary "worksite" XD

Or just getting rid of H1B all together and nurture that talent in-country.

Why would companies take the time, money, effort to nurture when talent is readily available as H1bs? The mostly American shareholders don’t approve that.

Because it’s better long term for a company?

Short term thinking is why we are always on the knife’s edge of crisis.

One of my friends saw a job the other day. It was a non academic, non R&D, run of the mill marketing position that required… a PhD???. The pay was also pretty pathetic with the start of the range probably not much more than a PhD stipend. I was wondering at first if credential inflation had reached its peak, but someone else suggested it was H1B bait.

I've personally noticed that H1B tech workers get paid significantly lower than others. It's a shameful business practice and obviously also really hurts the competitiveness of non-visa workers.

My guess is that there's no clear market rate for any position. Companies can always say there's a wide range between lowest and highest paid for any given role.

Market rate is based on the national median. So yeah... they do get paid more than the median, but far less than a developer where they work. It's why H1 workers tend to get hired in high paying areas. That's when it's worth it. If they can swing remote, it might be worth it. I've had a California company "lowball" me and I cackled at my amazing raise internally.

That is not true. Prevailing wage also depends on the where you work. https://flag.dol.gov/programs/prevailingwages

It is true.

You posting that link over and over doesn’t obviate the fact that we look around collectively and see H1Bs getting paid at the bottom of the band.

I wonder if it's different in the public sector? I'm at a university and (pay transparency) earn pretty much equivalent to equivalently experienced colleagues. (Edit: in the Midwest)

It is not.

Visa holder wages are publicly available. People in this thread are making stuff up to support their views.

A PERM (permanent labor certificate) actually requires prevailing wage for a specific job position at a specific area. Just go check this website: https://flag.dol.gov/programs/prevailingwages

It depends on the company and I would bet my life’s savings that if a discrepancy exists at Google, it is not intentional. I have many American friends, friends on TN visas, and friends on H1Bs and we are transparent about our pay (to protect each other from poor business practices). Being involved in the process there are so many legal barriers and red tape and people take it all seriously.

H1B holders will get paid less over time due to not being able to leave companies at the drop of a hat. A similar but less significant effect holds for TN visas. I have not once seen any significant pay discrepancy for two comparable software engineers at the same company based on visa status.

I'll take that bet.

Why? OP mentioned a number of reasons why they don’t believe it to be true

I worked at FAANG and knew more than one Indian on H1B. They weren't getting paid "the same but slightly less". They were getting like 50k TC on a team where the rest of the team was making 200+.

> They were getting like 50k TC on a team where the rest of the team was making 200+.

I don't believe this for a second.

Were they outsourced?

To my knowledge that is unambiguously illegal and I hope they band together to get justice. Were they aware of others in shared circumstances?

In theory yes, but not in practice. Job roles are often downplayed. The basic mechanism where titles, roles, and pay are kept in sync because people will jump to new jobs breaks down in the H1B system.

Yea the market rate definitely has shenanigans. And I almost wonder if the "response" to a made up ad with low ball number is used to declare it's a valid market rate.

Case in point, when I graduated 15 years ago. There was a big H1B software farm (Accenture maybe?) That randomly emailed. 2 year contract job, $30k/year out of NYC.

Yea....not a reasonable salary even 15 years ago lmao

15 years ago I interviewed at Electronic Arts. They did this same thing. I wasn’t a recent college grad. I had a family to support. They offered me the job but at 60% of what I asked for. They were shocked when I told them to go eat dirt.

Market rate is +/- 50%.

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