Comment by dav_Oz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by dav_Oz | Hacker News Reader

While Japan is the most obvious "Guess culture" for Westerners.

My favourite example of a "Guess culture" is that of Iranian taarof[0]:

Another example occurs if a Western individual is not familiar with taarof in Iranian culture. When an Iranian individual is offering taarof, it is to first view it as a sincere offer with the hope of decline up to four or five times. If the individual offers more than five times, it can be concluded that the individual is not doing taarof, and the opposite side should respectfully thank that individual and accept the offer with gratitude.

In that example one has to decline about 5 times (!) to be sure the offer is genuine, most people unfamiliar with that custom will take the offer the second or third time or will be enraged that they don't understand a "No, thank you".

The most laborious combination is a "genuine offer" and you deciding to decline it. The person signaling the genuine offer will try to double down, - so expect an 8th time - until your genuine rejection is "accepted" and while you are at it firmly holding your ground try to sneak in a counter-offer, too ;) In the end you will end up most likely accepting a "symbolic offer" of the genuine offer. E.g. if you decline a ride you are offered genuinely (say because you want to have a comfortable ride with a taxi), you can decline eventually by accepting the symbolic offer that e.g. a taxi is called up for you.

Pretty hard to figure out if you are coming from an ask culture.

[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taarof

As someone who grew up in America (typically ask culture) but also grew up in a very guess culture family, subculture and religion (Utah Mormons), this seems insane to me. I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc.

The wikipedia article states the "Taarof is a ritual politeness that levels the playing field and promotes equality in a hierarchical culture" but the expectation that you repeatedly say no to something that is being offered and that you want out of social nicety seems nonsensical, and I don't see how it promotes equality. Can someone shed some light on this?

If things are regularly being offered with the expectation that they'll be declined, or declined in expectation that they'll be eventually accepted, it allows for wiggle room where somebody can choose to break the social expectation, in effect burning some of their reputation in exchange for fulfilling a short-term need.

Fascinating. There are rules of the social game that people usually follow, but can be subverted in a move that cashes in reputation or "social capital" for a short term gain. If you do it too often, you lose favor and people will stop offering you things repeatedly, and you are expected to pick up on the social cues. I can see how that creates more social wiggle room than a strict set of rules that everyone is expected to always follow.

Reputation (or "Gift") economies are fascinating things, and a neat look into pre-(and maybe post-?)money society.

In some ways, the analogy to currency holds: If you do a favor for me, I'm more likely to do a favor for you, there's a baked in "inflation" in that reputation decays over time. But in a lot of important ways, it differs: Me doing a favor for someone actually can make me more likely to do a future favor for them, versus no exchange taking place at all, depending on our level of rapport and the size of the favor. Reputation also rewards things that no-one would bother to quantify under currency economies: small favors, being enjoyable company, loyalty. Reputation is also aggressively local: just because Alice thinks very highly of me, it doesn't mean that Bob is more likely to help me, unless he and Alice have some kind of relationship, in which case I'd be leveraging not only what little rapport I have with Bob, but also my rapport with Alice, and Alice's rapport with Bob. This is a main weakness of such systems, because currency lets you deal with people you've never met before just as easily as your local barber. That leads to the necessity of strong hospitality cultures, because outsiders otherwise have no access to resources at all.

From a modeling perspective, currency lives in the nodes of a graph: Alice has some money, Bob has some money, I have some money. Reputation, in contrast, lives on the edges: I have rapport with Bob and Alice, Bob has rapport with Alice and I, etc.

On tangentially related note, it's been a bug-bear of mine that primary education history lessons always present barter as the premonetary economic system. This is absurd on its face: if Bob is a brilliant cobbler, and I'm a farmer with shoes that regularly need repairs, I'm not going to break down into whole negotiation of how many bushels of wheat or worse yet something more perishable like vegetables from my garden a new shoe sole costs, and how I'm going to save up and store enough for when my shoes need a fix. I'm going to build a reputation with Bob, by sharing with him excess from my garden, and in exchange he'll be willing to fix up my shoes when needed. Straight-up "I'll give you 4 chickens for a coat" barter is very rarely observed in societies before the introduction of currency.

Direct barter of the thing you produce for the thing they produce is of course difficult and inefficient.

But barter in pre monetary cultures often involved the exchange of a third commodity that was commonly traded - things like salt, spices, alcohol, oil, copper and silver. Things that were in high demand and were non-perishable. Coins developed as standardised units of the precious metals that were already being exchanged.

Yeah the main reason why our systems are getting increasingly depersonalized is because we have to deal with more and more complete strangers than before. Marvel of modern interactions is that we can trust (somewhat) this current trading partner despite never meeting this person and will never again. At the cost of distancing ourselves from people close to us.

Just a guess, but maybe it allows poor people to extend offers of hospitality they can't possibly fulfill and thereby save some face?

Gift cultures (as subset of honor cultures in general) are there to build a cobweb of mutual favours that cement the society. An important function in the absence of modern rule of law.

The bit that I'm reflecting on is if you are used to it then you know you have an out - just offer/decline a few more times. As opposed to I guess an ask culture perspective where the presumed reason for the repeat asks is that they are trying to wear you down and your outs are basically capitulation or escalation.

I'm also reflecting on the times where I've changed my mind during repeat offers, basically because it gave me enough time to think.

No conclusions on your question, just ruminations from some one who wonders the same.

> I grew up guess culture so I understand it, but ask culture is so much clearer/concise/kinder in my opinion. Less likely to be misunderstood and build resentment, etc.

Second that. Just asking takes out the guesswork, and helps to avoid misunderstandings. Feels like a more efficient way to communicate.

But I do prefer to minimize annoying others. For example by learning some of the culture of people you're dealing with, context of the subject matter, etc. Most people will appreciate if you show to 'have done your homework'.

Kind of like RTFM before asking on a forum. You're more likely to get a helpful response if they see you read the relevant section of the manual, and tried x or y, but something remains unclear. Versus "I'm lazy & need this fixed, plz help".

But I think it depends on how well you're tuned into the culture of some group (call it the in-crowd).

If you're like a Zen master of that group's way of doing things, and many exchanges have been made between members of that group & yourself, then with a request you know who to ask, how to ask, and likely meet willingness from the other side.

But if you're clueless.. then better give a hint to that fact, and ask explicit questions that don't leave room for misunderstanding.

"Those who ask may be a fool for one day. But those who don't ask, may remain a fool forever".

Absolutely. I’m from a big family that is ask culture both by necessity and temperament and relating to families that are guess-based is just so exhausting, in both directions.

This is common throughout the Middle East. Along with things like sincerely fighting to pay for the bill when going out to eat with friends.

It becomes part of the social game, and can be quite fun to take part in We move you start to understand the rules. But is confusing at hell if you’ve arrived from an Anglo culture.

Fighting over who gets to pay the bill is pretty common among Anglo American groups, at least in my experience East coast middle-to-upper class social circles.

Calling paying for a bill "quite fun to take part in" made me chuckle. I'd rather play the game where someone else ends up paying because they put that much thought into it. If I'm treating someone I'll happily pay but if I'm at a restaurant with a bunch of people and someone is making it their mission to pay for my meal, I'm not going to fight it!

I'd rather buy everyones meal than owe one to someone else.

Being paid for feels infantilizing to me. Often the person with the highest status pays, by accepting being paid for you are accepting your role beneath them.

I felt like that meme "they had us in the first half, not gonna lie" on reading this comment.

I initially thought, on reading your first sentence, that you are trying to be nice/kind to others by paying for them, but then the rest of the comment gave the opposite impression, making it sound like you're infantilising the other person/trying to avoid an unpleasant feeling on your part by pushing it onto someone else.

lol if you play that ridiculous game, sure. The reality is everyone goes on with life and, if someone thinks of it again "Hey you owe me dinner after last month!" they're the asshole. It's different if I forced them to pay for my dinner but if they just paid because they're paying then I don't understand why people overthink it like you are.

Interesting. In The US in The South(Southeastern US) when something is offered it's often polite to decline twice and then accept a third time if you actually want something being offered.

That is laborious and prone to causing hurt feelings, pretty much no matter how it shakes out

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