Ask HN: Is My Career Salvagable?

First, calm down. Things go up, and then down, and then up again. I am working only a few hours a week right now, it's not just you.

Second, it's not you, it's the programmer labor market. There were a lot of layoffs in Big Tech in the first half of 2023, and the labor market hasn't absorbed all of that yet. It will, and then being a programmer will be a good job again.

Third, to survive in the meantime, you may have to take a crap job for a bit, if you are having trouble paying the rent. That doesn't mean you should stop programming, but you do what you have to do. If you have a cushion to survive on, great, but don't be afraid to take a low-wage, non-professional job for a year if that's what's required. By the way, lots of small to medium sized businesses, if they find out one of their line workers (whatever that is for that industry) can work with computers, will start putting them to work on that (though you would have to be willing to be a jack-of-all-trades). It's not guaranteed, but it happens.

Fourth, remind yourself frequently that this is not about you, it's about the particular place the programmer market is now. You need to have an optimistic attitude going into an interview, so make it part of your interview-readiness routine to keep focusing on positives. One case where "fake it 'til you make it" is a good idea.

Fifth, there has been a shortage of programmers for every year in the last thirty except for probably 2001, 2008, and 2023. It will pass. Just do what you have to do to keep your head above water until then.

> Second, it's not you, it's the programmer labor market.

I keep hearing this, but then I’ll see the opposite, that the market has already corrected and it’s just incompetents that joined the industry in the times of low interest rates can’t get hired now. It seems about 50/50 what I see and hear.

> Third, to survive in the meantime, you may have to take a crap job for a bit

I’m definitely trying, but even this feels difficult in spite of the constant new about how great the general job market is.

> I keep hearing this, but then I’ll see the opposite

Depending on who you talk to you will get wildly different assessments of the same information. Follow the money. Most of the people telling you its an employers job market are doing so because they want to hire you at lower rates and get your expectations down.

The right company matched with the correct skills and person can make both parties happy. The fact that we've been chasing this ghost for years doesn't mean it doesn't exist... its just really fucking difficult.

We were luckier before, I don't know how else to process it currently.

easy to be fat and happy when the money keeps flowing.

The general job market, for the overall economy, is good. That doesn't mean every sector is, and because Big Tech went on a hiring binge during the pandemic, then reversed gears in early 2023, we're out of sync with the rest of the labor market.

One good tactic is to have a friend or former coworker look at your resume, and let you know what they think. An outside pair of eyes can help. Also, perhaps find someone who can do a practice interview with you (again, perhaps a former coworker or friend in the industry who knows how these go), they may be able to tell you if you're doing something that is off-putting, without you even realizing you're doing it.

Just keep plugging away. You only need one job interview to go well, and if you keep making enough "shots on goal", you will get one, and then the number of misses before that will not matter.

> and because Big Tech went on a hiring binge during the pandemic, then reversed gears in early 2023

The last company I worked for definitely did this, so the layoff was no surprise, but what I don’t get is why I’m having trouble finding work at non tech companies. 3-4 years ago I could get interviews at F500 type companies no issue even from cold applications. Did they participate in over-hiring too?

Possibly, but they also got to fill all of their openings from those layoffs. When there are 2% fewer candidates than openings, it feels like a candidates' market; when there are 2% more (legitimate) candidates than openings, it feels the opposite. The good part of that is that it can go back the other way quickly. Just make sure you don't beat yourself down so much in the meantime that you don't look like a viable candidate when the opportunity comes. If you appear desperate in a job interview, it makes people suspicious that there's a problem they're not seeing. Work on being as calm and patient as you can, and just keep plugging away.

Normalcy in software engineering is when incompetents are getting jobs.

Have you considered going back to school? It sounds like you need a career reset and school is honestly a good way to do that. There are plenty of CS grad programs that will help you up-skill and give you better prospects for finding a job through the school itself or through networking with other students. Obviously, there is the financial element here but it's an investment in yourself. It's up to you to make it pay off.

I don’t even have an undergraduate degree. I’ve been wanting to go back for years, but I have bigger aspirations than getting a degree just to have a degree, and I don’t think I can fund it without software money.

No undergraduate degree is your issue. The market has recovered, but only for people who can hop the first HR filter. For everyone, else I hope you have a strong professional network. Humans aren't even looking at your resume. You are getting kicked by a computer.

My only recommendation is that you reach out to non-fully remote small companies/startups. Those are likely to not have automatic resume filters and they are likely to have few enough decent applicants that they'll give you a try.

I’m strongly inclined to agree with this. The first screening layer of many HR departments is completely automated.

Networking through grad school is a good option. But there really isn't much I learned in grad school that I'm using in my job and hadn't already learned in undergrad. Grad school seems like a huge waste of time and money (if your company doesn't pay for it).

> I started programming as a kid, and always knew I wouldn't like it make it in the industry.

What made you think that? It sounds like you might have some self esteem issues that should be addressed. Not all tech work is glamorous, but if you can solve real world business problems, you would be employable. Sometimes lack of confidence can turn a potential employer off. Not every employer will directly ask you this, but have a good answer for: “what piece of software did you write that you are most proud of?” Think about it and what you’ve learned and hopefully that will translate to improved reception.

> What made you think that? It sounds like you might have some self esteem issues that should be addressed.

Not really an esteem issue (though the current situation doesn’t help that), but as a hobbyist there was an appeal to the creative freedom, that would be lacking in a professional environment. I didn’t initially plan to go into programming professionally, at least not when/how I did, but my initial plans fell through and I figured my best option was to make use of that skill, in a time when it was easier to enter the field. Now it’s just hard to tell if I made it in because of the hype surrounding the field in the 2010s or because I was competent enough to.

Send me your CV if you want. I don’t suck at getting jobs as a developer, and I used to be a recruiter. I’ll give it a look & let you know what I think.

Is this a service you might be willing to offer other HN users? Maybe for a small tip or a donation to a cause of your choice?

I'd be happy to help informally. TBH, there's only so much I can do to help. A CV is just a summary of what's going on in your life. For example, I can't help with...

- an economic slowdown (anyone with a pulse can get a job in the good times)

- lack of skills

- lack of jobs in region

- depression

- unrealistic salary expectations

- lack of motivation

...and so on.

What I can do give some basic pointers that might hold them back. For example, one time a candidate of mine got rejected because the hiring manager didn't like his mullet. I told that to him that in confidence and forgot about it. A few years later he was one of my interviewers for a job, reminded me of that, and thanked me because he started getting job offers shortly after cutting off the "party in the back" part of "business in the front, party in the back" :)

Did you get the job?

Well I have a job, so yes!

What a petty reason to reject someone, what sort of place filters people out based on their haircut?

Right? Surprisingly though, that's the #1 reason for job rejections that I've heard about secondhand. Though in the cases I'd heard of, it was cuz they had long hair and not mullets. Stupid, right, but I guess some traditionalists judge things like that. Shrug. Some places also want a shirt and tie.

Engineer types don't readily fit into that world, but we serve them just the same.

I wouldn't hire anyone with a mullet, the jealousy and envy would be too much to bear.

First, post your resume somewhere so you can get feedback, it's likely your resume is bad. Second, you need to check out pramp.com and ask people to give you honest critical feedback for your interviews.

You could need practice in the technical portion or perhaps you come off as too arrogant or not confident enough or any number of things.

Lot of words so maybe I missed this, but can you go back to the Small State Government Agency? Seems to me that if they have good benefits and maybe even a pension plan it might be a decent comp package all told?

Probably not. I don’t live in that state anymore. If I moved back I could probably get a state job, but I’m not exactly in a position to move right now.

Also the benefits were not that great from what I remember. Ima few years in private industry, I was making more than the director of the department with a better benefits packages. The only people making good money in state government there were tenured professors and football coaches.

That last point is so true. I know here in the state of Washington athletic directors, make by far the most money.

Feel free to contact me via my phone number in my profile if you would like to bounce ideas off of me. (Nothing to sell, but when I worked for other people it was also a bad economy and I had a bunch of working strategies to find jobs quickly.)

"I haven't been able to find any work since 2022"

Are you looking for work or looking for a full time w2 job situation?

Market is down all around, but you might want to explore freelance or contracting if you haven't explored those yet.

Most metro markets have multiple tech recruiter/contracting houses that have connections with regional employers. Many of those employers don't advertise much publicly, but do use recruiters to fill their positions (temp or perm).

> Most metro markets have multiple tech recruiter/contracting houses that have connections with regional employers.

These have been the ones that ghost me the most. I’ve gotten plenty of messages from these types of recruiters who claim they have some positions that would be a good fit for me, they call me to briefly chat about what they have, and then disappear.

I do understand it happens. I may not have had as many ghostings as you, but have had some. In those cases, generally, I wasn't in any mad dash to jump/switch, so I didn't put as much emphasis on being ghosted as you probably are.

If you have not yet, I would suggest proactively reaching out to them, vs responding to the ones who reach out to you. Many times by the time they are cold emailing, they're relatively desperate, and may not want to spend much time unless you are a perfect fit immediately for what's on their plate.

Learn stuff and do projects. If people want experience and you don't have on the job experience, do projects and write blog posts about them explaining your thinking and dev process. It's all about giving employers confidence. That said, the market may just be tough ATM, but at least it's something proactive. Or get certified, for the same reason.

Sounds like you’re a .NET developer? You might need to branch out if so.

I’d be happy to branch out, but if I can’t even get work in the stack I’ve been working in for some what, am I really going to be able to branch out after a few side projects in another?

Having side projects in other tech could only help

Can you code? Did you add value at your previous jobs? If so, I think there is a place for you if you keep grinding. Good luck.

Are you not getting interviews or not getting passed the interviews?

A mix of both. Some months I’ll get no interviews, some months I’ll get some. When I do get them, it seems a toss up whether I don’t get past the first round, or get through the final round then get ghosted.

tl;dr: connect with things you enjoy, find ways to document or share what you are doing. I quit drinking it really helped. The job market just sucks right now, it's not just you.

I have had a very similar experience. I'm dealing with the burnout. It's like that software analogy of building a new plane to jump into as you get out of the old one. Except your plane is falling apart too fast and there aren't enough parts left to make a new plane. You are still falling at 300 feet per second and everybody you talk to about your problem can't understand why you won't just suck it up and accept your fate.

I'm super lucky that I'm in a stable but boring job. My boss is kind and understanding. The main anxiety I experience is the weird culture and pace of work, but the same fear you express about bad things happening and being left behind is still present even though my job is secure for now. It's an ok job for now but it's not where I belong long-term and that gives me the same feelings I had when I was unemployed for 1+ year / months at a time.

I can't tell you what will work, but I can tell you what I'm doing.

1. I have created a youtube channel where I film my outdoor adventures. I'm not suggesting you become a youtuber but I am suggesting you find a way to do things you enjoy and document them. I would never give myself credit for what I do (I still suck at this) but when I upload a video I can't help but give myself credit for work done even though I'm an unproductive and useless piece of shit or whatever my traumatized brain has cooked up this date

2. I am creating a website to sell fishing lures. You. mentioned the issue with getting tooling spun up that's too much for one man... I had this issue going from docker to kubernetes and I never really had the professional support to make it to K8. Eventually I realized I hated managing infrastructure and even though I'm an API guy I have been working on next.js sites to just MAKE STUFF and work on doing things even if what I'm doing at work is unproductive from a career perspective

3. Therapy. I'm in it. It's taken over a year to get some real progress, and im on my second therapist. First one was OK but didn't specialize in ADHD / Aspergers which led to a sort of impasse of progress. Find the right person who you trust. It matters so much. Therapy has gotten me to a point where I view medication as something that can help me deal with my situation vs "everyone wants to drug me into submission".

4. I quit drinking over a year ago and I think for the past 4-5 years I was functionally alcoholic as I prolonged my burnout and subsequent job struggle. Drinking wasn't the problem for performing work, the issue was that it was used on a daily basis to numb myself to the pain and suffering of what was going on. Alcohol is remarkably effective at this, and in my opinion too effective. I lost a ton of weight, i've never felt better and i never get hangovers. I won't drink alcohol ever again and the reasons I've stuck with it have changed... but its gone from a thing where I wish I could have a drink to I straight up just don't want it anymore because I like the better me I am without it.

Find ways to reconnect with what you enjoyed in the early days of programming. For me it's creating a robot that draws pictures of people. I want it to work before I share it with the world. Find a thing you can put 30mins or an hour into each day and grow into something that matters to you. Your vibe will attract your tribe. Three years ago I uploaded a video of me ice skating and now I have new friends to do activities with and my work is being taken seriously (by an advertiser) in a new career space.

I don't know if I'm ever going to get a real developer job again. I want it. I miss PRs and code review and system design and real database interactions. For whatever reason I cannot communicate my skills and experiences to recruiters... and I've effectively been walled out of the job I want for several years. I feel your pain even if your path is different.

At some point you just gotta start doing shit, whatever your hands can reach. Don't think too much just make the most of your situation. Can't wait for inspiration to come save you, life is not going to throw either of us a raft.

Start swimming, that's what I'm doing.

I LOVE the idea of a robot that draws people! I dont know if you would remember to send me an email if you ever make a video about this - sounds unreal.