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Comment by PrimeMcFly | Hacker News Reader

It's continually amazing to me that more than 100 years after Marx and Engels wrote their papers on Socialism and Capitalism, people can't see past much more than those choices. Which seems to be very much a false dichotomy.

We have so much more, significantly more data and analytical and modeling capability, and no alternative proposals are taken seriously? It's not like they don't exist, they just never make it as part of the conversation.

It's almost religious with which people limit themselves to the most known options and ignore any alternatives.

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If we boil the definition of of socialism vs capitalism into "who owns the means of production?" Capitalism answers "a small group of people by natural right" and socialism answers "everyone, collectively". These definitions leave you with the only alternative being "a different small group of people" (arguably the USSR did model this, ergo allegations of "state capitalism"). Given industrial production (assuming no one is advocating for a return to feudalism) it's one or the other, there's a privileged class or there's not.

If you mean why has no one come up with different ideas for _accomplishing_ socialism post-Marx (or Lenin or Mao), well they have. There's all kinds of weird and wild ideas out there. Searchable terms for interesting ideas on organizing society include "participatory economics" and "democratic confederalism".

> These definitions leave you with the only alternative being "a different small group of people"

Or the same group of small people with significantly more restrictions and caps.

> it's one or the other, there's a privileged class or there's not.

There doesn't have to be a privileged class in either system.

What else is a small group of people owning the means of production, if not a privileged class?

If things are setup so that anyone can own their own means of production, and then can have more say and more profit from existing means of productions they are associated with, the privilege reduces significantly.

Oh, the infinite means solution!

Not at all, what a weird takeaway.

Indeed, we have significantly more data. However, it seems that we have significantly less _truth_ than at any point in my lifetime, at least.

"Data" evokes images of objective, agenda-less sensors just sitting there, measuring, and passing on what was measured. But in reality, there is a substantial human element in capturing and recording "data" (e.g. SF crime statistics).

I'm not saying other options can't work. I am saying data is overrated in our current, heavily-divided and politicized, world.

"It's continually amazing to me that more than 100 years after Marx and Engels wrote their papers on Socialism and Capitalism, people can't see past much more than those choices. Which seems to be very much a false dichotomy. "

It seems a very US habit to think only two extremes can exist on any issue. There are plenty of examples of other paths when you look at the different countries in Europe. They all strike different balances between socialism and capitalism. Heck, the US is not very "pure" capitalistic either. We have socialized healthcare (for some), welfare (for some), progressive taxes and more.

I would be very curious about totally different approaches.

> It seems a very US habit to think only two extremes can exist on any issue. There are plenty of examples of other paths when you look at the different countries in Europe.

I don't think it's a US thing at all. I don't deny EU countries have a more hybrid system in some ways, but then so do man US states. That isn't what I'm talking about though. Online arguments/debates for this stuff always revolves around the two extremes, as do political parties, even in EU.

> I would be very curious about totally different approaches.

We all should be! It should be a priority!

In which countries do workers own the means of production? Socialism does not mean social programs.

It’s not countries, but these market share numbers are higher than I thought:

Agriculture - 83% in the Netherlands, 79% in Finland, 55% in Italy and 50% in France

Forestry - 60% in Sweden and 31% in Finland

Banking - 50% in France, 37% in Cyprus, 35% in Finland, 31% in Austria and 21% in Germany

Retail - 36% in Finland and 20% in Sweden

Pharmaceutical and health care - 21% in Spain and 18% in Belgium

Source: https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/sectors/proximity...

They exist but Marxists and faux Marxists are very militaristic and don't want anything that threatens their monopoly even if it has a chance of working, worse, if it works then it makes them look stupid (barking up the wrong tree).

This here is the go to book I recommend:

https://www.dieter-suhr.info/files/luxe/Downloads/Suhr_Struc...

Interesting link/book - thanks!

It is odd. Especially since their ideas are built around an older form of economy that we have long since moved beyond. Materialism as a guiding philosophy for economic theory seems outdated when in the developed world, economies are built upon services and information rather than production and many types of goods are already post scarcity.

“Radical centrism“ (rejecting this dichotomy) are failures that either can't go beyond the crank armchair or which languish in political parties that are about piecemeal reforms (some Green parties).

Simply produce something better than this dichotomy. But apparently that is too hard.

> Simply produce something better than this dichotomy. But apparently that is too hard.

There are proposals out there, but people dismiss them outright in favor of their adherence to one of the two existing religions.

> Which seems to be very much a false dichotomy.

We live in a mixed economy. The false dichotomy is generally one purported by Socialists as the worldview depends on it. The ranks of "anarcho-Capitalists" are comparatively very few.

Would you care to showcase some of your favorite alternatives?

Not really, I don't have time for a debate on the pros and cons of each which is what providing some examples would lead to, nor do I have them handy at the moment. I was just making a point which I think stands firm without providing an example set of alternatives.

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