Effectiveness of physical activity for improving depression, anxiety, distress | Hacker News Reader

Effectiveness of physical activity for improving depression, anxiety, distress

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If I can get on my soapbox: physical activity is still very underrated, especially by people who spend a lot of time on the computer. I have so many colleagues with anxieties and other pathologies that would be greatly relieved by even modest physical activity.

But there are good cultural reasons why nerds avoid physical activity. North American cultural tropes, especially from high school on up, make out physical activity to be a kind of war. It is supposed to require extreme discipline and a punitive degree of focus. It's supposed to separate winners from losers. Those who are lesser (too weak, too fat, too short, too... whatever) are just embarrassing and should not try to do physical things in public view, unless they are trying to atone for their weaknesses with self-flagellation.

Lately I decided I would do physical activity but only when it was fun. I had no goals at all other than fun. I had to do something every other day and then stop when it wasn't fun. Sometimes this meant very short bursts of activity, or going to the gym for ten minutes and then leaving. I also explicitly was not trying to lose weight at all. I was trying to hack my psychology and associate physical activity with pleasure.

I think it's working. I'm much stronger and my endurance is much higher. I set myself goals just for fun at the gym or on my bike and then complete them.

And, full disclosure, I haven't lost any weight at all (in accordance with my goals!) but my body composition appears to be changing somewhat.

> But there are good cultural reasons why nerds avoid physical activity. North American cultural tropes, especially from high school on up, make out physical activity to be a kind of war. It is supposed to require extreme discipline and a punitive degree of focus. It's supposed to separate winners from losers. Those who are lesser (too weak, too fat, too short, too... whatever) are just embarrassing and should not try to do physical things in public view, unless they are trying to atone for their weaknesses with self-flagellation.

As someone who grew up as a nerd and only later discovered the joys of sports and fitness:

This idea that physical fitness is "war" and excruciating painful and only for jocks is largely self-inflicted by nerds upon themselves. It comes from movies and TV and internet tropes more than the real world.

Once you step out of the nerd bubble and try some physical fitness or casual sports you realize it's nothing like the movies. It's also nothing like the fitness influencers who post about their daily Crossfit grind or other social media displays. In fact, your local amateur soccer club or climbing gym is probably full of nerds and even people you might think are "out of shape", but who still have a great time. I run into a lot of engineers at these activities.

I think the concept that sports are pain and only for the elite few and/or dumb jocks is a comforting myth for those who want to believe they're making the right choice by not exercising, but it's not true.

You're definitely right that the jock/nerd thing is more of a media trope than real. On the other hand, I just attended my nephews' football game. When I went to the bathroom at halftime, I happened to overhear the losing team's coach speaking to his players - the bathroom adjoined the locker room. Speaking? I mean screaming. I was disgusted by the level of toxic masculinity.

I shared this with some of my colleagues later and some of them said they had quit team sports to get away from this sort of culture.

Physical fitness and competitive sports are two different things, though.

It's another nerd trope that physical fitness means you must engaged in competitive team sports or toxic masculinity. Again, step out of these bubbles and you realize that competitive, organized team sports are only a tiny little slice of the physical activities that people do.

Also, not all competitive team sports are like this. It's a mistake to think that the toxic masculinity, outraged coach yelling at kids is totally normal. It's not. Many coaches will push their students past their comfort zones and refuse to take any crap, but someone who is just plain toxic will gradually lose their team and get pushed out most of the time.

> It's another nerd trope that physical fitness means you must engaged in competitive team sports or toxic masculinity.

Oh please. As a lifelong nerd, I've never heard of these tropes.

My only anecdata as a parent is my son's recent decision to join the cross-country running team at his high school. I've been amazed by the level of positivity and support of the team as a whole. The coach doesn't take any crap, but is amazingly supportive.

One of the reasons my son joined was the experience of his very nerdy, overweight, non-athletic in any way, friend that joined the previous year. His friend went from not being able to run more than 500 ft to being able to complete a 2 mile run, with all members of the team strongly supporting him throughout. So far, my son has experienced the same things.

It's amazing the effect it's had on these kids. My son is learning how to push himself and how much mental strength translates to the real world. i.e. Are you really that tired? Are you sure you can't make it to the end of the next lap? etc.

What makes me sad is how few opportunities kids have for organized sports as they get older. By the time they're in high school, it's basically only for the super-competitive.

> What makes me sad is how few opportunities kids have for organized sports as they get older. By the time they're in high school, it's basically only for the super-competitive.

There are actually a lot of recreational leagues available once you get into college. My local parks are booked out all summer with rec leagues for various ages.

This is my experience too, it may take a little looking but you'll likely find everything from pick up basketball games to amateur soccer and rugby leagues, or hockey beer leagues.

In most larger cities there are even adult leagues.

Seattle, for example, has an adult recreational hockey league that has ~2,000 participants across ten divisions of ability.

If you can ice skate (and there are lessons available if you can’t), there’s a place for you on an ice hockey team.

And if you’re not “super competitive” but just want to have some fun skating around a rink, you can do that any day of the week.

Same goes for many other sports.

> more than the real world

Nah I've seen these play out in the real world, High School, etc. A lot of times

> nothing like the fitness influencers who post about their daily Crossfit grind or other social media displays

If that's what they're posting then I don't agree with this being a "nerd bubble" issue only

But you're right, there's a whole world of friendly fitness out there, that's why I keep the f out of "bro sports"

I wanted to reply to your comment, but see you've since edited it. Congrats, that was a good edit!

> As someone who grew up as a nerd and only later discovered the joys of sports and fitness:

> This idea that physical fitness is "war" and excruciating painful and only for jocks is largely self-inflicted by nerds upon themselves. It comes from movies and TV and internet tropes more than the real world.

As someone who was a nerd but also in a variety of sports through most of school, had parents who were active in coaching, and has been involved in some organized athletics beyond school: no, its not “self-inflicted by nerds upon themselves”.

Its not inherent in athletics itself, but its deeply involved in a lot of sports culture, is extremely common in youth sports of all kinds (even sometimes in notionally non-competitive organizations) which is probably whwre most misperceptions of its universality comes from—not just through coaches, but very often through parents, many of whom will put pressure on coaches they don’t see as embracing it.

Jock culture is not a product of nerd culture imagination, nor is it a fictional media invention. You can kind find social athletic groups/venues without it, but its pretty hard to predict where you will.

> In fact, your local amateur soccer club or climbing gym is probably full of nerds. I run into a lot of engineers at these activities.

Not all engineers are nerds and, contrary to media myths of an exclusive dichotomy, being a nerd or engineer doesn’t mean not having a stereotypical jock-culture attitude toward athletics.

Amateur adult sports clubs are a mixed bag, but (IME, at least) generally better than what one generalizing from youth sports might expect, same with gyms.

    Jock culture is not a product of nerd culture 
    imagination, nor is it a fictional media invention. 
    You can kind find social athletic groups/venues 
    without it, but its pretty hard to predict where you 
    will.

Toxic athletic culture exists.

In many cases, though, there's an extreme mismatch between what athletes experience and what non-athletes perceive.

Many athletes like to compete. They like to play hard, against other people who are doing the same thing. Winning is fun, but competition is really the thing. When you train and compete hard it is not a zero-sum game; even if you lose you have sharpened yourself so to speak.

If it's a team sport this is going to involve some level of sacrifice and subsuming one's self into the whole. That level can be extremely small (the ultra casual darts team at your local pub) or quite large (a professional football team). This can be hard for non-athletes to understand in a sporting context, and it all just seems like a giant incomprehensible ball of toxic hate to them because they don't understand the appeal of any of this in the first place.

    Jock culture is not a product of nerd culture imagination, 
    nor is it a fictional media invention.

It certainly wasn't invented by nerds or the media, but it is amplified by the media. Obviously the media doesn't typically report on healthy sports participation, you know? And the dumb "jocks versus nerds" false dichotomy is such an easy and functional Hollywood trope.

I would also note that a lot of "toxic sports culture" is the product of overbearing and overcompetitive parents living vicariously through their children and forcing their kids to do things they don't want to do. So, is that really a sports thing? No, it's a parenting thing. Those are toxic parents.

It is definitely not "self-inflicted by nerds upon themselves", at least not entirely. I grew up both a nerd and mildly athletic and became very athletic in college and later.

While there are certainly areas of positive support athletics for adolescents, much of athletics is as the OP describes. I have a very talent athletic family in general, with several cousins and one nephew that are playing or have played professional, and nearly all my relatives highly active in sports their whole lives. I was an outlier! And I can say, from the internal view, competitive sports tends to be pretty rough on people. Friendships made, yes, and it can be a great experience, but it is typically very excluding and very, very harsh.

It really depends on where you grow up, too.

None of this is to say that physical activities have to be like that, and most aren't once you get into college and beyond. But middle and high school in much of america? It can be harsh!

> As someone who grew up as a nerd and only later discovered the joys of sports and fitness: > > This idea that physical fitness is "war" and excruciating painful and only for jocks is largely self-inflicted by nerds upon themselves. It comes from movies and TV and internet tropes more than the real world.

I can refute this at least in my upbringing (boys athletics in rural US south public schools).

I played organized baseball and basketball through middle school, and even in the earlier grades it was quite competitive. Parents were really pushing their kids. I sucked and loathed disappointing everybody including my father.

In high school I was no longer in athletics but I was in band, and where I'm from band exists to support the football team. So we were always hanging out around the football players, and I got to witness the culture first hand.

A lot of parents are convinced their kids are (or could be) stars, and that does rub off on them. It's a massive amount of pressure. Even if you already know you're not actually in the running, social status is still tied to performance, and in high school social status is everything.

Later in life, free from such delusions, rec sports are totally different. Nobody is out there trying to get a scholarship. Nobody dreams of becoming a millionaire. Nobody thinks that if they just manage to perform a little bit better, finally they will be popular and cool. Nobody thinks that they can finally satisfy their hyper-critical fathers if they just execute that play correctly.

Everybody knows the stakes are low. The "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play" finally makes sense.

So I can't say it's universally true, but there's good reason that these tropes exist.

p.s. - I now have a daughter in middle school soccer. It is very different than high school boy's football, but I still see a lot of pressure placed on these girls, especially the ones that are pretty good. The coach does a good job of supporting the less talented kids and promoting teamwork, but it's not easy and they still feel the pressure. I know my daughter beats herself up every time they lose and is very hard on herself when she makes a mistake.

> Later in life, free from such delusions, rec sports are totally different. Nobody is out there trying to get a scholarship. Nobody dreams of becoming a millionaire. Nobody thinks that if they just manage to perform a little bit better, finally they will be popular and cool. Nobody thinks that they can finally satisfy their hyper-critical fathers if they just execute that play correctly.

My experience with rec leagues is that there are always a few people who are hyper competitive from their youth sports days but they were not good enough to keep going. But they still act the same way in rec league.

The amount of times I've been body checked by such people in no-checking hockey leagues is way too much

This is definitely fair! Some people just compete all the harder because the stakes are so low.

I tend to think of the hyper-competitiveness in athletics as a phase that people eventually grow out of, but that can happen later in life for some than others :)

In retrospect my biggest obstacle in school was, nobody ever really taught me how to improve, and so I was never good enough to enjoy myself.

The dominant culture focused on the value of grit and perseverance through suffering. I bought into it, and learned how to suffer, but your capacity for suffering is always limited. As a result, I would start to deplete my capacity and lose drive to practice before I got to see much in the way of results.

Nobody taught me that you can slowly improve over months and years without having to dip into your capacity for suffering- and get better results.

The sad part is, because you can get results this way, it’s easy to get stuck in this way of thinking. “If I was just a little tougher, I could shave 5 minutes off my half marathon time.” This is how people wind up permanently damaging their bodies, as they focus on ignoring the pain instead of getting better.

I agree with your assessment

There's too much BS and noise around physical activity. Stuff like "Fitness Magazines" or "The biggest loser" or even the HS tropes, movie tropes, the focus on collective sports, etc and even personal trainers contribute to this

> there are good cultural reasons why nerds avoid physical activity

Nah. I know quite a lot of nerds who are into fitness.

> It is supposed to require extreme discipline ...

I don't know any nerds who feel that way.

    North American cultural tropes, especially from high 
    school on up, make out physical activity to be a kind 
    of war. It is supposed to require extreme discipline 
    and a punitive degree of focus. It's supposed to separate 
    winners from losers.

Amen. Extremely well said.

Additionally, as somebody who has always sort of had one foot in athletics and one foot in the world of nerdery:

I find that many sedentary types are just uncomfortable with sweating. They find the sensation of sweat on their skin to be super gross and embarrassing and/or are afraid of "body odor" and this is a major deterrent for them.

I was this way, kinda, when I was much younger. I definitely see it in others.

During the pandemic, I started exercising daily (mostly walking for an hour a day.) It did wonders for me. I lost 20+ pounds and I sleep so much better.

Exercise is the only thing I know of that improves ALL forms of mortality. From cancer, to gunshot wound, to heart disease via plaque in your gums, exercise simply prepares your body to handle stress better. Everything works just a little more efficiently, which pushes the dial in the right direction.

Personally, I've started hiking a lot. I've been running for years, but I never really loved it. Once I learned how hard to push myself, I liked it a lot more, but now I just disappear into the mountains for a couple hours a day. I CAN'T GET ENOUGH. It's so easy to work out now, because I'm scrambling up that mountain in hopes I get to see ANOTHER new plant I've never come across before, or get to see another deer and fawn standing in the trail, just 20 yards ahead, or get a moment of actual, real peace and quiet. People, find a method of movement that works for you. It doesn't matter if it won't turn you into an athlete - any movement is better than none.

Anecdotally, I used to sweat ALL THE TIME. Now, my body temp feels like it's regulated perfectly. Other people comment how hot it is outside, and I think to myself that it's actually quite cool. Obviously shedding a few pounds helps, but there must be more to it.

> This idea that physical fitness is "war" and excruciating painful and only for jocks is largely self-inflicted by nerds upon themselves.

I don't know how many this people generalizes true, but much of this was definitely inflicted on me by jocks.

I grew up in the South in a time where bullying was common and allowed. I had the biological misfortune to be a very skinny late bloomer who never put on muscle the way most boys did, even though I was pretty active. I was mocked and bullied constantly in PE and hated every second of it.

In high school PE, when we were doing football, they would do the classic move of picking two team captains who would then take turns picking people for their teams. Now, it is understood to be humiliating to be picked last in this scenario. But sometimes a captain would pick me first as a show of bravado. They would literally pick me and then tell they other captain that they were confident they'd still win even with me on their team.

I agree with your point whole-heartedly that using your body can and should be fun. But I also know that for a lot of awkward nerds like myself, there is a lot of emotional baggage that understandably gets in the way of it.

What personally helped me a lot is listening to Robert Sapolsky's lectures[0,1]. The reason I really like them is because they decompose depression into different causes. He breaks it down into: Anhedonia, Grief, Guilt, Self-injury, and Psychomotor retardation. For example, if you are exhibiting anhedonia and psychomotor retardation then the SSRIs probably aren't going to work for you. But at the same time, if you have self-injury and psychomotor retardation giving you energy may actually kill you (you now have the will to act).

I think mental illnesses are very personal. It is still good to do studies like these, but they are also too aggregated. We put autism on a spectrum, I don't understand why we don't do for other things like depression. The most I see is anxiety/depression, like this. There's far more nuance involved and it isn't surprising that in these experiments that there are high variances. I'm not saying the studies aren't useful, but that these have been done for decades and it's time to add complexity to the studies. Nuance is necessary, but few people are taught to perform multi-variate analysis. It is always rather surprising given how many statistical "paradoxes" are due to aggregation errors.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc

[1] HTTP link, you will get warnings http://www.robertsapolskyrocks.com/depression.html

There are certain other disabilities and neurodiversity’s that are “associated” with depression and it’s never quite clear whether it’s situational depression or intrinsic.

If all your grandparents die in six months, that’s situational depression. If dyslexia makes you feel like a failure with a secret, leading a double life, that’s situational. If ADHD means you keep hurting people you love and you never achieve your goals, situational.

Certain symptoms of ADHD respond well to repetitive motions. And walking/cycling/running/gum chewing/fidgeting/leg bouncing can help as a coping strategy. Successful coping means less situational depression, regardless of whether the activity also reduces depression.

I don’t think it’s a spectrum, I think it’s a grid. There are several things going on and there are quadrants that are dangerous and ones that are mediocre.

This is a very good point. And I'd add that in a society tuned for the "normal" participant, I'd add that many differences create the opportunity for situational anxiety and depression that are invisible to people who are sufficiently "normal".

E.g., living in San Francisco I know plenty of queer people who came here from more queer-hostile places. Or I remember a time before I moved out here when I spent a few days in a colo. It blew my mind that so many of the people walking in and out looked and talked like me. I realized that I had spent years being the odd nerdy person out without ever quite noticing how fraught that was. My baseline level of anxiety has dropped a lot living here.

> I don’t think it’s a spectrum, I think it’s a grid.

I'm a bit confused by what you mean here. A spectrum is continuous while a grid is discrete. It seems you're implying multiple dimensions but I'm not sure where I suggested one. I think I specifically gave 5, but will agree there's more than that.

In a spectrum you can only move left or right to achieve relief.

In a two dimensional problem, moving up or down may be the shortest route to getting from suffering to okay, and in some cases that transverse movement may take you from suffering to thriving.

> In a spectrum you can only move left or right to achieve relief.

We're going to have to agree to disagree then. Because that's definitely not the definition I use and find in plenty of textbooks. Those match what I said above

I think you can have a 3-dimensional spectrum.

I mean it can have n-dimensions. It's just common to discuss 1-d because we place things on a 1-d axis, not because the word itself means 1-d. Like political spectrum often refers to left vs right, but it can also refer to authoritarian vs anarchism. Really it just means a continuous function, there is no strict definition that this needs to be 1-d and that would be a weird thing to do in math.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum

Only the social sciences section of that mentions anything greater than 1-d

Social Sciences introduced the concept of a multidimensional 'spectrum'. I'm not a fan, and for the reason I more or less already stated: It conflates a multivariate problem with one having a single variable. The initial conditions affect success of any undertaking, and you're starting with your foot in a bucket.

Newton and astrophysicists don't use it that way. They should have found a different word.

> For example, if you are exhibiting anhedonia and psychomotor retardation then the SSRIs probably aren't going to work for you.

Way too many depressed people avoid SSRIs due to generalizations like this. SSRIs don't work for some with those symptoms, but they're a life saver for others.

SSRIs can also be helpful for pulling people out of a deep depression and getting them to a place where they can rebuild healthy habits, then taper off the SSRIs.

Please don't discourage people from trialing SSRIs if they're in serious depression. There are also modern antidepressants that act not only on the serotonin transporter but directly on certain serotonin receptors to create more favorable side effect profiles.

I've known too many depressed people who spent years avoiding SSRIs due to things they read on the internet, then finally gave in and tried them and discovered that it was the spark needed to get their lives back on track. Do not waste years and years of your life on depression for fear of experiencing negative side effects you read about on the internet. Work with a doctor and be open to trialing proven treatments for a reasonable period of time (6+ months).

> due to generalizations like this.

I'm rather concerned seeing this response. My comment is about more nuance, not less.

That example has qualifies and is clearly not a catch all. The main thesis is that more nuance is required not... generalization. I do believe SSRIs work, just not for everyone. I'm very much not trying to discourage people from trialing them, so much as looking for other solutions if those trialing fail.

Personally, SSRIs almost killed me. They just made me suicidal. The problem was that it didn't match my specific case. That's okay. The bigger problem was that every psychiatrist I tried just tried giving me a different one or told me to keep using them "until I levelize." This is doing far more danger than me saying "we need more nuance and stop using a sledge hammer for every case." You know what's actually dangerous? A patient saying "I stopped taking this because it made me want to die" and a doctor responding "that was unwise, you should have continued taking it." Who isn't going to come away from that thinking their doctor is trying to kill them.

Experiences like mine are what drives the fear you are talking about. That's not on the patients, that's on the doctors. If instead they got SSRIs, found they don't work, and tried something else, found that it did work, people wouldn't write these stories. You're victim blaming. I could have personally gotten help more than a decade sooner if this nuance was in practice but instead it should be unsurprising that I used to be (note not now) passionate about not taking something that made me want to die. It's unsurprising that I refused to see any psychiatrist considering years of the same thing happening over and over. That's on the doctors, not on me. They taught me to be afraid. I'm saying there's absolutely no reason that should have happened.

Your reasoning is correct. Depression is an umbrella term, which covers a range of disorders with different neurocognitive aetiologies. This is the reason why patients will respond to pharmacological interventions with distinct mechanisms of action, and not to others: dopaminergic stimulants, monoamine oxidase inhibitors, glutamate receptor antagonism, catecholamine reuptake inhibition, secretion of neurotrophic factors in a particular brain region, etc. – while other patients suffer still from refractory "depression".

Physical activity is undeniably important to managing mood and chronic pain for me.

Something that isn't discussed whenever this topic comes up, though, is how unbelievably hard it is to get started when you aren't active. I had to force myself to go to the gym, take walks etc for six months before I felt like I actually enjoyed those things.

For those of us who default to couch-potato it's a massive barrier that is often ignored (at least, from my experience, by medical professionals).

I think really very few people truly enjoy exercise for its own sake, and so you depend on having the discipline and habits to enjoy it for its benefits which is harder.

Or you can find an activity that you enjoy but that is also exercise. But then you need someone or maybe a team to do it with and a lot of them are seasonal like cycling, tennis etc.

I've noticed that both indoor rock climbing and bjj have gotten really popular in cities in the last decade and I think this is basically why. Active indoor activities that are enjoyable for a lot of people.

I have activities I enjoy that are themselves exercise to one degree or another, but they’re more enjoyable if I also exercise.

sorry to be an evangelist, but coming out of lurking to say that cycling is no longer seasonal, thanks to indoor/online platforms such as Zwift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMGbZFEZOM8

you can ride with a club/friends at any time of day, any season of the year, anywhere in the world.

still not a perfect solution, since startup costs are required, but if you've got a bike and can swing a smart trainer, it's pretty awesome.

I guess. Pedaling is my least favorite part of cycling but maybe I'm an outlier.

I enjoy running, even when I do it alone. I run at a moderate pace, and it's more like a meditation and a timeout than anything else. I've heard a lot of runners saying the same. I don't think solitary exercise needs to be a chore.

> I think really very few people truly enjoy exercise for its own sake

This is objectively not true for me and nearly all of my friends who lift/run/swim/bike/etc.

Physical activity feels good [see OP].

Some of exercise is type 2 fun - https://sketchplanations.com/the-fun-scale

And/or you feel better having done it.

Same, but we are likely in bubbles. I love exercise, and many people I know are the same. But, I know a large number of people from the gym and things like BJJ.

Yeah I think that is a self-selecting group a little bit.

My cyclist friends love exercise for its own sake. My judo friends mostly accept it for what it enables them to do. My board game friends tolerate it, at most.

I think the things that people self describe as "exercise" are rarely joyful. The name itself implies that the intent is the result and not the act itself.

But if you ask people if they like walking around a cute downtown full of little shops, or surfing, or exploring a valley looking for wildflowers, or going to a nightclub and dancing, gardening, etc., then you'll discover a world of activities that are physical and also enjoyable.

> "I think really very few people truly enjoy exercise for its own sake"

I don't know how true this is. When folks talk about things like a "runners high", an activity that even at my most fit was abject misery, I have to wonder just how differently we're experiencing these things. When I was lifting heavy, I also suffered from some pretty serious delayed onset muscle soreness. I know for a fact folks have varied experiences and tolerances for that. Some people's muscles recover much more quickly from heavy exercise, reducing the overall unpleasantness associated with exercise. With all of the variables and testimony from folks I've worked out with, I have to assume a decent amount of people who exercise regularly actually enjoy the exercise itself. For me it never became more than a means to an end. It's something I know is good for mind and body, but my mind and body consistently rebel against it.

Thank you for this. It helped bring something into focus in my mind that I'd been struggling with.

I keep kicking myself for not being more willing to exercise, but I've also recently discovered that my body severely overreacts to stress, even what should be eu-stress, not dis-stress. For example, massage therapy aggravates my muscles and leaves my body more tense and less resilient. I finally started making progress on healing some physical anomalies only after I stopped the recommended massage therapy.

It's made me realize maybe I'll have better luck with "strolling" than "going for a walk," or making up interpretive dances to smooth music than "dancing" to up-tempo beats. Perhaps I just need much more movement, but a lot less intensity than most people.

I didn't at the start.

After 9 months of sticking to it, I found myself enjoying it while doing it.

I had to use a personal trainer to get to that point though, due to how much I hated it initially.

This was the big turning point for me, and I'm in my forties. Thinking that I couldn't enjoy exercise was mainly because my 'form' was so bad it literally hurt. Luckily you can get better at things, and once you do, or you reach that point where it feels good, then the discipline isn't really needed any more than folks need discipline to play their grueling video games.

The gym never worked for me. Like you I just can't get myself to go someplace to exercise, it seems like an insurmountable job. What really helped me 13 years ago was doing something I could do easily. I want to stress that exercise doesn't have to be a fixed gym routine. It doesn't have to be a planned out walk where you time and benchmark your progress. It can just be a stroll around your neighborhood, I like walking around and mapping with StreetComplete. Sometimes I'll even bring my laptop and do some micromapping with josm.

Personally I find that I get way too competitive if I track my workouts. I bike for an hour around 3-4 times per week. I don't know which days I do it, I don't know how fast I go. I just go and ride wherever i feel like, take whatever turns I feel like. Usually my rides end up about an hour long before I get bored, but sometimes (especially in the summer months) they turn into 4 hours.

You'll find that your body changes drastically. Most people (me included) has this idea that the body will adapt relatively quickly. Maybe a couple of months. I've found that my body kept getting stronger and more efficient well into the 5th year of doing exercise. You'll be surprised at how much your body can actually do, and how much of that training carries over, even when you let it slip for a couple of weeks (or you break your ankle and have to pause for 2 months).

Then of course there's the fantastic extra benefit that any additional activity you may find interesting gets much easier once you're body is already tuned. I recently picked up skate boarding, something I wanted to do as a kid but never had the physical ability to participate in.

>StreetComplete

Wow, thanks for this! I'll definitely use it.

Fantastic looking Android app. Note to sad iPhone users like me. If we want an iOS version, one of us programmer types need to roll up their sleeves and write it:

https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/issues/1892

FWIW, https://mapcomplete.org exists - I haven't used it much, but iOS users should try it out.

“Go Map!!” on iOS is a great alternative, allows for full editing.

Another StreetComplete user here. Great app, open source, more people should be on it, especially if they are active and going to new places often.

I have been couch-potatoing more than I should recently, so when I had some time off but was alone at home, I decided to use that time to try and get back in the habit of getting regular exercise.

I must have pushed myself a bit too hard, because I ended up with flu-like symptoms for a week afterwards, which completely broke the intent of getting started on forming the habit again.

Sorry you went through this. If you want to make another attempt, I've found that the older I get, the slower ramp up time I need getting back into exercise. Do far less than you're body is able to during the workout when you start. To the point where it feels like you're not stressing yourself at all. Then make a plan to slowly ramp up from that point over 6-10 weeks depending on the shape you're in and age. After that, you can start pushing your body closer to it's limits during any given workout. Also, it will just suck the first 3-4 weeks before you start enjoying it.

It is discussed, and that's why anti-depressants exist: to give a kickstart to your lifestyle and then let it take it from there

My solution was accountability to another person: a trainer.

Pay a trainer for once/twice/thrice weekly sessions.

It is easier to skip a workout when no one else knows. I found it simply easier to just go rather than to make an excuse for the trainer.

It was worth the cost for me.

This is exactly what I did.

After a decade of nothing else working, this is what stuck.

Or get a dog. It's a trainer that will punish you by shitting on your carpet if you don't keep moving. You won't have time to be depressed.

(Just don't get a Husky. They're furry humans-- high-maintenance and not very affectionate, and will get depressed and act out when left alone all day.)

I like physical activity.

My brain greatly dislikes 'purposeless' physical activity.

For example, I can stock an entire store, no problem. I will gleefully put the right thing into the right spot. That accomplishes something. Take a quarter of that physical energy and put it into a jog or walk? Hate it. Yes, I am technically accomplishing something, but try and tell my bored-to-tears lizard brain that.

I found bouldering/sport climbing to be able to tickle my it needs to be useful sense. It gives me focus on a task: get up this problem. YMMV of course :)

I love taking photos while on walks and listening to podcasts.

That same issue was a barrier for me when I wanted to establish an exercise routine. The thing that really helped was turning "a walk to nowhere" into "a walk to the grocery store." I started daily shopping with a backpack to carry what I buy. Fortunately (?) I don't live in an especially dense area. A round trip to the grocery store is 4 miles. At the same time I started spending noticeably less on gasoline. I'm a remote worker and once I started doing most of my shopping on foot I found that I was only refilling on gas every 2 months.

> I started daily shopping with a backpack to carry what I buy.

I do the same, slightly shorter distance. There's even an exercise that people put rocks into their backpacks and walk around, they call it rucking I think. I could never do that, but bringing the groceries, sure!

Time spent in the car is wasted, time spent walking for groceries is well spent.

Moving back to my hometown of 400k people, I found I don't even need a bike: I can get almost anywhere in an hour's walk!

Treadmills are a form of punishment. Man in motion, going nowhere...

I've taken to forcing myself to walk to the convenience store when I want a single unit of junk food instead of hoarding and binging. Gives me purposeful exercise and limits my spending on crap.

Consider a physical activity that doesn't require your brain and use that time to engage your brain in other ways like listening to audiobooks and podcasts. So instead of "this is my pointless exercise hour", you end up with "this is my audiobook hour".

I cannot stress enough -- in this regard

"Anything worth doing is worth doing POORLY." aka, ANYTHING is better than nothing.

I feel like that's the biggest barrier for a lot of people. One push-up is far better than zero. Walking outside to your mailbox and back is better than none at all.

Signing up for a gym and going once every two weeks, for about 15 min, is WAY better than not at all. Etc.

I promise, really believing this makes things a LOT better.

Also -- WALKING.

Walking is huge. This is definitely in response to "my brain hates it, etc" type stuff.

My gut is that this is pretty much never true for "walking." We were "designed" to do it, lots of it. Not walking is not even our "default" state I imagine.

I had to force myself to run regularly. But after a year of this, suddenly I realized I was looking forward to running. Now, it's one of the best parts of my day.

I couldn't run for a couple months because I sprained both ankles, and I sure missed it.

Lifting, though, I just don't enjoy it.

This is correct and normal, your aerobic base needs to increase to a decent level, before you can undertake regular exercise and reap its benefits. And it is a painful process, but not a very long one. Six months is perhaps unusual, but it probably depends on your overall health. When I transitioned from being sedentary to daily jogging, I quickly quadroupled the duration I could run uninterrupted in only 4 weeks (from 5 min to 20+ min).

My pet theory around anxiety/depression is:

For many people, the two are deeply intertwined and often share a root cause: The need to feel like a capable agent in the world. Anxiety is your brain saying, "You need to do something, but you're going to screw it up so obsess about how to avoid that!" Depression is your brain saying, "You need to do something, but it won't help anyway so just give up." I'm over-simplifying, of course, but the gist is that we're wired to want to do and we feel bad when we aren't doing enough or what we're doing doesn't matter.

The modern world is antithetical to that. We are surrounded by media that provides short term gratification to consume but involves absolutely no action or agency on our part. After an hour of TikTok scrolling, our body and subconscious is screaming that we should be doing something. Punching a time card at a bullshit job burns all of our energy but provides no meaning in return.

Physical activity addresses that. It's both good for us at an actual kinesthetic level, but it is also the strongest, simplest signal that we can send our brains that, "Look, I am an active functional agent in the world."

I like to imagine Martians setting up a human zoo. If you were building a zoo for any kind of animal, you'd certainly make sure the animals had plenty of room to move and explore. You'd give them things to do, and make and move. If it's an animal that digs, you'd give them dirt to dig. If it builds nests, you'd give them twigs. You sure as hell wouldn't stick them in a tiny box with a screen and a button that just changes what's on the screen. That would be torture.

Martians building a human zoo would give us room to walk and run and explore, materials to craft with, and other humans to connect to emotionally and physically.

Instead, many of us have put ourselves in that dumb empty box with just a screen or two, and then we're surprised when we don't feel good.

> Instead, many of us have put ourselves in that dumb empty box with just a screen or two, and then we're surprised when we don't feel good.

“Stop hitting yourself” is a common pet theory on depression.

“Everything is out of my control” is a common pet theory about self treatable mental illnesses.

That most things are a mixture of things in and out of your control is a completely normal attitude to most things that we don't arbitrarily decide is just complete self-hitting.

EDIT: But let's just think of something that might take months to change (this might be exercise routines): that falls into the set of things that you can change yourself but that can't be condescendingly described as something that you do habitually and are “surprised that you don't feel good” (it's 90% about habit-building and 10% about intellectually understanding the cause and effect). It's not a simple “one weird trick”.

I could have worded this better by saying that "a combination of personal choices, cultural norms, and societal pressure has led to us being in dumb empty boxes".

A failure mode I see in today's Western culture is an inability to reason carefully about the intermingling of agency, responsibility, guilt, and blame. Tied to my original pet theory is another pet theory that it is this cultural cognitive dissonance that exacerbates many of our psychological problems.

If you point out that someone suffering depression could improve it by doing XYZ, the knee jerk response someone invariably raises is "you're just victim-blaming them for being depressed. It's not their fault and making them feel bad just makes it worse."

But interpreting the statement that "you could improve your depression by doing XYZ" as blame is a narrative framework imposed upon the claim. It's the person claiming "victim-blaming" that is forcing the depressed person into the role of "victim".

An equally valid narrative framework is that pointing out that a depressed person could improve it by doing XYZ is in fact honoring the person by attributing to them agency and the ability to improve their own life going forward.

I understand completely the desire to not shame or blame people suffering mental illness (which is why I talk about my own struggles with it all the damn time). But once they have a mental illness, you can't take away their responsibility for what they do about it without also taking away their agency.

The trick is to help people feel they have agency while also having the grace to not feel horrible if they make mistakes.

> > Punching a time card at a bullshit job burns all of our energy but provides no meaning in return.

Exactly, our brain is not wired for the centralization of food production and energy production.

Thanks to Globalization everything is being produced in the most convenient location but at what cost? Even for the producers it's not even fathomable that they are feeding the world and providing energy to the world. They understand conceptually but they don't feel it in a limbic way.

Not the same feeling of you hunting down a huge deer and kill it and then bring it back to your village where everybody treats you as a hero because you have provided food for a week.

Everything is super safe and there is a huge margin but at what cost? When everything is super safe it means that there is no room for heroes saving the day anymore.

Some people react to that by going back to the simple life and they find peace in that, some others pursue drugs, the party life etc. some others gaslight people into believing that what they do is as vital and as fundamental as killing a huge deer to procure your village food for a week in time of food scarcity . They hope that if they can convince a whole bunch of people to believe that, they will believe it too.

You've got a great point and analogy presented here. Your dumb empty box with one or two screens is indeed part of the problem, but it's also connected with what's being communicated by those screens. Our collective understanding of human of life is being reduced to measures of material wealth. Such ideology has contributed to the rise in suicide among young people in the US and other countries.

>Martians building a human zoo would give us room to walk and run and explore, materials to craft with, and other humans to connect to emotionally and physically.

Suppose the happiest humans in the zoo are the ones with an understanding of their relationship to the Martian zoo staff. The most content among them would know that appeasing the Martian zookeepers means more food, stuff to play with, and even more humans to enjoy. Those who try to oppose them or hide from them will have their efforts wasted - the Martian zookeepers effectively see and know all. Any human attempts at order will have to contend with the higher order of the Martian zookeepers. Being ignorant of the Martian zookeepers has it's own risks, as it would disconnect the captive humans from the true meaning of their own existence.

IMO a deeper source of depression among modern-day humans is linked to a similar existential crisis.

Exercise is huge for my well being. I lift 3-4 hours a week and cycle 8-12. I didn't realize how stabilizing it was until I had a slipped disc put me out of commission for a couple months with almost a year of ramping exercise back up. I felt like absolute crap, couldn't control my eating and turned to food, staying up late playing video games and other things to fill my bucket. I really noticed the effects when I had kids. I think a lot of people stop exercising when they have kids because finding time is hard, and that is true. But I have so much more energy and patience with them by keeping going.

One other thing I wonder about, I get a lot of sunlight. I'm in Denver and can get outside almost year round. Vitamin D is always strong, as confirmed with labs.

Running and cycling to work is a sure bet to get some exercise in even if you have kids.

Who wants to get to work sweaty and stinky though?

who gives?

People with olfactory sensors.

This is the main reason I don't bike / jog to work. I shower in the morning, do my hair, etc. etc.; I fear getting into work sweaty & stinky & disheveled would be a bad look.

Those who bike / jog to work, how do you work around this?

Many offices have showers nowadays, but if you are not the only biker, then it can get complicated. I think the best approach is to not treat getting to work like it’s the final stage of the tour de france and riding leisurely with ebike if needed. If you want to go fast, do it on the way home.

I used to bike to work for many years. This is a question for my coworkers ;)

Seriously, perhaps bike slow enough not to get too sweaty and smelly? Of course this depends on where you're located...

If you're stinky you should re-evaluate your hygiene routines, particularly how they affect your skin microbiome, as well as your diet. Stink doesn't come from your body but from the bacteria that live on your body. Paradoxically, stripping your skin of all oils and bacteria using strong soaps in the shower every morning only serves to destroy the healthy biome that keeps the "stinky" bacteria in check.

Also biking doesn't even have to work up a sweat if you don't want it to. But at the least you can ride in a shirt dedicated for exercise (quick-dry, ideally Merino wool) and switch when you get to the office.

I mean, if you live in the American South during the summer, being outside works up a sweat. Physical exertion is going to leave you drenched no matter what clothing you're wearing.

And there's a difference between active "stink" and just smelling like sweat and exercise. One is worse but neither is particularly pleasant for your office-mates.

Merino wool is specifically recommended for exactly this reason. Everyone who does bike tours swears by it. Wicks sweat really quick, keeps you cool in hot weather, and is extremely resistant to collecting odors even after multiple days of exertion between washes.

"There's no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing" does have a limit if outside temps hit 35°C (95°F ish) (wet-bulb temp is more relevant but obviously varies by humidity) or higher but there's a lot you can do to mitigate the effects with the right materials.

It only really works if you have locker rooms / showers at/near the office IMO

> to get some exercise in even if you have kids.

The easiest way to get exercise with kids is to take them outside and play with them. Go for hikes, play ball, run around. It's not structured exercise like going to the gym, but it's plenty of activity relative to a sedentary lifestyle.

I get the point, but the reality is playing outside with my kids or hiking with them is not going to provide me with the exercise level necessary for fitness. The more research I do the more I find that a truly healthy adult needs far more exercise than most think (10+ hours) and at a much higher intensity for about 20% of that than most think.

It is possible to bike the way you walk - in a leisury pace that won't make you sweat.

I think that one reason why people are off putted from exercising is that expectation that everything must be super serious training.

I wonder if studies support the effectiveness of doing anything productive. Exercise is good because it's easy to quantify the result: I ran 5 miles or I lifted 5,000 lbs (cumulative) in that workout. Or I went X more distance or faster than last time. I can feel the results of that effort in my muscles and lungs.

But I've also noticed that simple stuff: I did the dishes, I folded a load of laundry, I fixed a leaky faucet, whatever. Anything that has an achievement or makes an objective improvement makes me feel better. I can see the result of what I've done.

Note that I don't get this from video games, social media, etc. Maybe some people do, but those things just feel more like escapes from reality. That is the difference for me. Sitting here reading HN occupies some time, but doesn't make me feel any better (in fact often I feel worse because I'll start thinking about what else I could have done with that time that would have been more productive).

This is an established theory in psychology. One model of depression is "learned helplessness". Something about your life has taught your mind and body that it's pointless to try. So literally anything that teaches you that you have agency is a counter to depression.

It's probably best if it's a small thing, to start. I myself had a period where I "learned" agency by teaching myself vim shortcuts.

I have wondered the same thing about exercise. It's a quick hack for learned agency. Very few people feel worse after a modest amount of exercise. Even a walk down to the corner store gets you a change of scenery, an amount of social interaction, and movement. It will improve anybody's day.

There's an entire field of therapy called "behavioral activation" that fosters exactly what you describe: Re-learning how to do things even when you don't initially feel like it.

Part of the therapy is to recognize that your depressed brain isn't doing a good job of identifying things that will make you feel good. You then go through some exercises to identify activities that make you feel better and create plans to do them. Then you learn to observe how you feel after doing those activities, which starts the process of re-learning how to do things that make you feel better.

There's obviously more to it than I'm describing here, but the underlying idea is that taking steps to relearn how to do and enjoy things actually does work.

> Note that I don't get this from video games

That's highly surprising. What you just described (achievement, objective improvement, feeling better) is a major reason why people play video games.

> Results showed that physical activity is effective for reducing mild-to-moderate symptoms of depression, anxiety and psychological distress (median effect size range=−0.42 to –0.60), compared with usual care across all populations.

> Our findings underscore the important role of physical activity in the management of mild-to-moderate symptoms of depression, anxiety and psychological distress.

You may also find https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4056176/ (History of exercise as medicine) interesting.

Only last month did I learn the origin of the term "medicine ball". Hippocrates prescribed its use!

And I am one of the 10000 people today who just learned that. Thanks for mentioning it!

That probably tracks with a lot of people's experiences.

It's good for prolonging a period where you're feeling good, or slowing down descent into a more severe episode, but when the depression has gotten to overwhelming levels, it's not of much help (if you can coordinate your limbs to perform it in the first place)

Also the feedback loop where a lot of the symptoms of depression are also causes of depression. And a lot of the verifiable treatments are "do the things a depressed person doesn't do."

Which is not knocking either bit of real and correct knowledge. But from within the beast it's a different problem.

I think there's a segment of people for who depression and anxiety is an inability to quiet their mind. They're unable to go about their day or be present in their thoughts because they're ruminating on a thought that's evoking bad emotions.

Exercise is one way to break the thought cycle. Just holding your breath is another. When you're suffocating, your brain tends to shut down unnecessary thinking. I also think this is why people enjoy rock climbing. It's the potential for injury that shuts down rumination for a lot of people I know who fail to find the same focus through meditation.

My anecdotal personal experience aligns well with this! I am not an adrenaline junky, but I have noticed that one of the reasons I enjoy mountain biking so much is the effect the perceived danger has on my brain. A challenging down-hill run will zero-in my focus to just what is necessary to avoid disaster (I am not great at mtn biking...). My mind is emptied of all else! Very similar feeling to what I experience when meditating!

The challenge comes when the rumination is the minds attempt to process as legitimately dangerous and confusing situation.

It almost never actually works of course. But recognizing it for what it is can help figure out that the circumstances around it are a real problem, and figuring out how to address it.

Extreme focus can be dangerous when it prevents us from seeing the semi-truck headed right for us, essentially.

All things in moderation as they say.

I'll contribute my anecdote.

When I sought counselling in 2013 the only regular appointment I could get was on a Saturday morning, 11am. So I'd get up and do Parkrun[0], get home, shower, and head out to see the counsellor. I'd cheerfully regale how utterly, paralysingly miserable and borderline suicidal I'd been all week. All the current stuff I was failing to deal with, and all the past stuff I just couldn't stop ruminating on. The withdrawal, the isolation, the intrusive thoughts, the insomnia.

After a couple of weeks they asked: why aren't you ever depressed when you turn up here? You're making jokes, you have energy, you're able to describe all these symptoms yet aren't actually displaying a single one. What's going on?

I said, well, on a Saturday morning I do Parkrun and ... oh. Oh! OH!!!

And thus the penny dropped. There's an absolute correlation over the medium/long term, for me, between how much exercise I do and how happy I am (or rather, how little I experience depression). These days, 11 years on, I'm out at sunrise or earlier 4+ days a week. It doesn't have to be running, but I'm yet to find anything preferable.

[0] https://www.parkrun.com/

Recently I've read "The Comfort Crisis", "Exercised", and finally "Burn". All are in agreement...daily physical activity is our evolutionary norm. That is, the lack of physical activity is counter to our DNA and evolution.

Anecdotally, I run (daily, 2 to 5 miles). No ear buds, etc. Just me and the road. The sweat is good, but being able to clear my head is for me the key benefit. Some people, including myself, have aha ideas in the shower. I tend to have them when I'm on a run.

Physical activity might not be The Answer for All. That said, I cannot imagine the advantage of a lack of physical activity; the benefit from violating our history.

https://eastermichael.com/book/

https://scholar.harvard.edu/exercised/home

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/603894/burn-by-herm...

I've never seen a depressed person on a bicycle. Well, maybe I was, when I had to bike home after breaking my collarbone riding my bike. ... OK, there was that one time I hit an armadillo.

Ok,Ok, Ok. I'll admit it, I wasn't happy when my bicycle seat fell off, and I had to ride without the seat.

There. Now maybe I've cured at least one reader's depression, after reading about how awesome cycling is. Don't forget to tip your waiters.

Up until a couple years ago was pretty depressed and absolutely burned out at work. I could not focus on the now, always thinking of what was next. Could not just enjoy sitting down with my family. I had been like this for years, was also very out of shape. I used to dread getting up in the morning and having to log in. I'm mid 40's for context. I used to be in excellent shape.

I got on TRT and started working out again. The boost in self confidence, and ability to just be calm was immense. I am now in close to the best shape of my life and definitely stronger than I have ever been. I have been working on my diet as well.

On top of that I started smoking marijuana after work. I consume cannabis probably 3 - 4 times a week. It has worked miracles for my ability to just be in the moment. I can just sit and talk to my kids or play sports with them. I'm not focused on constantly learning new things or doom scrolling. I have noticed a huge improvement in my entire families well being as I am more present. My wife has noticed the same. We just sit and talk for hours, something we had not done since before the kids. My kids do not know I smoke and I likely wont tell them until after high school as at the end of the day it is a drug. I drink maybe 1 drink a week if that.

These 2 things worked wonders for me and my depressed state of being and my inability to connect with the now. It allows me to appreciate what I have instead of always focusing on what I want to achieve. I am also excelling at work.

Not advocating for others to try, just wanted to say what worked for me.

Marijuana is well known to exacerbate depression over long periods of time. It tends to make people feel "better" in the short term because that's the main reason people consume it, but the cumulative effects of chronic use set in over months or years.

Many people believe they have positive initial effects and then continue to use it for years, then eventually discontinue and are shocked by how much better they feel without it.

Something we need to consider when talking about depression is that it varies widely in intensity and the boundaries are vague because it's all self reported. This makes it very hard to talk about. Sometimes you will hear "just get off your ass and do something" to which someone may reply "it doesn't work like that." Well, both of these people are right. It depends on the specific instantiation of the things we call depression.

> "just get off your ass and do something"

If I don't have something external demanding attention, sometimes just getting out of bed is that "something" I'm doing for the day. I almost feel like I'm in a sci-fi novel. I'm in cryogenic sleep until there's a problem that needs to be solved. Then I am thawed and put to work until the problem is fixed and I go back on ice. It feels like I have little to no agency between fixing those external problems.

I was jobless from october 2015 to march 2018 - and on top of not having money, being at the verge of depression and the systematic bullying from my own sister, lost my best friend in the world and could not do anything about it (my dog).

Riding a bicycle kept me alive in that time. Even if it was an absolute crap bicycle. Riding a bicycle also kept me alive in the lockdown days.

> Even if it was an absolute crap bicycle.

I'm surprised you bring that up at all.

I've always ridden all kinds of crappy bikes. Recently I borrowed an expensive bike. Yes it goes a little faster and is a little more comfortable. It isn't more "fun" for sure. The main difference is that the expensive one you need to keep an eye on because it's so expensive. Not worth it imo...

The reason this works is beyond the chemical benefits. We are story driven creatures and physical activity gives us the feeling that we have accomplished something positive. Optimism about the future is very important and also accomplishing goals makes us feel optimistic. You can also get similar benefits by doing any small task which is meaningful to you.

I tend to think it's specifically tied to physical activity. My explanation is that we're conditioned, as a species, to survive by performing physical tasks during the day, to a degree where the brain expects it. If we sit still in front of a computer all day, and do nothing else, it creates a disconnect between what our body and brain is built to expect, and what we actually get.

I agree that physical accomplishments are easier to quantify by our minds to spin it into a story.

Physical activity isn't very effective for fat loss, but it's great for so many other things. It's the closest thing to a magic pill that we have.

I completed an 8 day bike tour a week ago and came back less 8 pounds of weight I was doing my damnedest to not lose. I just couldn't eat enough. My metabolism was jacked up like a hummingbird, it has only in the past couple days cooled down to reasonable levels.

So if you bike instead of working a full time job you can lose a pound a day! Most of which would be water weight initially. That doesn't seem very effective or realistic for long term weight loss. The intake is almost universally the problem.

I also had a 2 year sedentary period, following an injury, in which I slowly but steadily accumulated an extra 25 pounds.

When I decided to do something about myself I first had to get fit, and when fit enough I took that weight off over 5 weeks sprinting stairs for an hour every 3 days; a form of high intensity interval training, which is a little more realistic.

I personally don't have the willpower to diet, and diets usually fail, as they tend to make people miserable[1], so it's not something one is likely to remain beholden to indefinitely.

Regular, vigorous exercise, your whole damn life, just like the doctor recommends. It's for so much more than just managing weight. Unfortunately for too many people "exercise" is a dirty word. It isn't easy to make a sustainable practice out if you've let yourself go for too long.

[1]https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/diet-and-depression-2018...

> I personally don't have the willpower to diet, diets usually fail

Diet as a temporary change of eating habits obviously fails.

Diet as in what eating habits you have acquired over your lifetime, that doesn't fail.

> That doesn't seem very effective or realistic for long term weight loss.

Just continue biking all day long, every day. It will be very effective!

After a prolonged period of strength training I have noticed that weight drops off me even on weeks I take it easy and eat trash.

That never used to happen.

It's changed my metabolism, and by more than I would expect just to account for the extra calories my additional muscle mass burns.

I have a strange theory that your brain has multiple emotional stimuli sources, one it being distress, pain etc.. and one great way to not be stuck in it is to drown your brain in a flood of other positive signals (like physical activity, altruism, changes in temperature etc).

I don't think this is strange at all; the evidence is right there in our physiology that we evolved to take in a variety of stimuli and be mobile in our environment.

Would be weird that a complex organ like the brain to be incapable of taking in more than one stimuli and having a singular complex of emotion. The brain being two hemispheres and communicating while other sections of disconnected brain can still operate independently but disjointly. So it would make sense to assume that the brain is capable of many simutaneous emotions and not singular. I would say the theory is less strange when considering the circumstances.

I described it as strange because only grave illnesses gave me some insights into the evolution of pain and emotions in mental disease. And when experienced.. it does feel very strange to kinda sense more data from your own brain and be able to witness nonsensical patterns come and go, while in your normal years your emotional layer probably felt very logical and coherent.

Been through a lot, I've experienced stuff and that as only made myself capable of individual identifying my individual feelings rather than them be one mono-feeling.

I get what you're saying.

I agree with your theory that the brain works this way, however, I'd qualify that the method you identify is "great" insofar as it has an effect, rather than it being necessarily good or best practice.

The cause of depression must be rooted out. Blending it in together with other stimuli is just diluting the poison, and that poison will corrupt other facets of your life. Drowning out the source of your depression is effectively the same as running away from and burying it, which can lead to self-destructive impulses that permeate the positive signals. Those impulses will leave people confused as to why they're in emotional turmoil even when engaging in things that should feel good.

Sorry if I've rained on your parade. It is good to feel good, but it is best to feel whole. That's what I want for people who suffer from depression.

There's two things:

1. the root cause(s) of depression

2. the dynamic balancing of the brain

point 2 meaning that depression breeds depression, and the trick I was mentionning above was to allow some space to reverse that pattern to an extent. Blurring the signals will allow your self to not feel dying in pain for a while, which let's hope, and motivation grow back a bit

for point 1, it may be that my comment rubbed you the wrong way, because I actually 100% think like you. I've suffered from too many places / people trying to ignore the root cause, which led to a longer disease and more problems (to this day). The thing is, you don't necessarily have the resources at first to deal with root causes. so point 2 can be a good, non chemical, help.

I've always wanted to know if anyone has studied the psychological difficulties in establishing exercise routines in people suffering from these afflictions. My experience has been finding the motivation is incredibly hard.

It would be interesting to see more research that breaks out sunlight exposure as an independent variable. There is some reason to suspect that we need both physical activity and sunlight for optimal effects.

Not a direct comparison, but the data on using a light box has good research support (independent of exercise). Light has a significant effect on mood.

I can't wait to see cultural uptake of the importance of light and circadian friendly indoor lighting.

Of course, I'd prefer advances in construction that would allow large amounts of full spectrum light to enter buildings, but that's only relevant to new construction.

I completely agree that more research isolating sunlight exposure as an independent variable would be interesting. I live in Poland, where we effectively have about 2-3 months of warm, sunny summer with long days. I generally go for long walks throughout the year, thanks to the natural surroundings here—beautiful forests and the sea.

I've noticed a significant shift in my mood during June, July, and August, which aligns with those sunny days. My mood changes from "okay" to "fantastic," and I've been tracking this shift year over year. The combination of physical activity and sunlight exposure certainly seems to have an "amplifier effect" on overall well-being.

This TED Talk about sunlight exposure and heart health is fascinating:

https://www.ted.com/talks/richard_weller_could_the_sun_be_go...

Personally this is my experience. I've had a couple of very distressful/low times in my life and I've always instinctually exercised rigorously in terms of weights, running, swimming, etc during those times to take my mind off of things outside of my control and have found it very therapeutic. The adrenaline and pain felt from pushing yourself through a hard workout takes your mind off of things and also makes you feel more alive and energetic. It is very difficult to feel down when you are experiencing these feeling from working out IMO. From my perspective, I like to describe it as I could not escape my own mind of a stream of negative and impending doom of thoughts but when working out and giving it your all, it allows you to feel and focus on the environment around you and get outside your head or negative thoughts, giving you a break mentally from that constant stream of bad mojo.

I would have to guess working out like that puts you in flight or fight mode. Which I think is part of our evolution when in fight or flight mode to have a heightened sense of awareness of the environment around you which due to our limited locus of attention, shifts attention or focus from inward negativity to the "immediacy of being". This also seems to coincide with my normally perceived fast tempo of music that seems to slow down when in a hard workout.

There is a certain self-prophecy in sports medicine specialists finding that sport is beneficial to all-and-sundry. Not that it isn't true at large - "fitness = wellness" - but there's so much unspoken nuance. After all, the playing of video games has been linked to happiness and mental acuity, too.

If a person is thoroughly depressed in an office all day, does putting them on a treadmill (but having all else remain the same) change their life for the better? Sure, I suppose, but some might argue it'd be a fairly incremental improvement, and if the myriad concerns driving their depression are valid, then the treadmill won't address them.

Take that same amount of physical activity, and translate it to the context of a social activity with other people, and I suspect the readings would drastically differ again (from the desk+treadmill scenario).

How much of the mental benefit is coming from the social aspect vs the physical aspect? how much from the context surrounding the activity?

I'm sure I sound overly cynical, but I do agree with the findings. I just think that the finding "Doing Things sucks less than Doing Nothing & Being Sad" is a bit of a self-evident truth.

Modern city lifestyle doesn't have much physical activity. This could be the reason why we see increased depression and anxiety. This could also be the reason why people in third world countries don't have this level of depression and anxiety in their society. They have much higher level of physical activity and movement throughout the day.

Car culture and city planning in the US doesn't help. Walk-able cities get people outdoors for a half-hour or more each day.

People in underdeveloped nations are also unfit. Mexico has chronic obesity among children, among the worst in the entire world. 1/4 of the Brazilian population is obese. Almost all islands in Polynesia, Micronesia and the Caribbean have more than half of their population obese. There's also a lot of anxiety and depression in underdeveloped nations where you have to struggle to get the most basic things like water, electricity and food, deal with crime, gangs, brutal dictators and war. Just because you don't see mass shootings and suicides it doesn't mean people from many of these countries don't deal with extreme levels of stress, anxiety and mental disorders on a daily basis.

India too, along with extreme levels of heart disease.

Cars don’t have much physical activity. Walkable cities with public transit are amazing for staying fit.

When I lived in New York City, I averaged 17,000 steps a day. New Yorkers joke about having to get “city fit” when you move there.

But "walkable cities" can overdo that. I live in big European city, do not have a car, and I work from home, and I have most of the places that I need to go to (grocery store, dry cleaning, dentist's office, pharmacy, restaurants, etc) within half a mile radius, which means I average like 3500 steps per day, having no need to go any further.

17000 steps is what I did on my vacation in Lisbon, when I did A LOT of sightseeing. Can't imagine walking that much in my home city.

That isn't necessarily true. In cities it may be possible to live without a car by walking almost everywhere. This results in a lot of walking and carrying exercise.

I’ve advocated for this several times here, but I very much recommend a standing desk + walking treadmill to anyone with a desk job - especially if you WFH.

I got one years ago. It takes a while to get used to it. At first, I could only use it while doing menial tasks. After a year or so I could use it all of the time.

You would think it would tire you out, but at least for me it does the opposite. I get mentally tired if I’m not using it. I can also eat like I’m a teenager again and not gain weight. My leg muscles are pretty nice now, especially my calves. I’ve started to put some 3d printed risers under the front to incline it to work on my butt muscles more and make it something of a physical challenge again.

Most of all it’s just time efficient. I get exercise without needing to dedicate any free time to it.

Unfortunately my treadmill broke last week and it won’t be until next week that I get a new one. It’s really bumming me out and making it hard ti get through my work days.

How much do you walk on it?

Something like 4-6 hours a day at 2 mph.

Too bad it doesn't work for everyone. I exercise a lot and it has made me no better. It gets tiring and frustrating seeing exercise touted as that one weird trick online that will fix you, ignoring that depression or anxiety are highly individual and complex conditions.

As someone who was diagnosed with MDD, it's not something that will magically fix you. But it's something that will (should) improve your base mood. My floor was higher when I started to exercise.

It also gave me something to focus on.

I feel like it's the same thing as saying exercise doesn't cure obesity. It won't fix it if there are no other diet and lifestyle changes but it helps and is a vector in the right direction.

There's a non-zero percentage of people where exercise is what they need to solve their depression. For everyone else it's one piece of the puzzle.

People don’t understand that “physical activity” is just a part of life itself as primates. Only in modern times have we separated “life” from “physical activity”.

"Mean participant age ranged from 29 to 86 (median=55) years" I wonder what the results would've shown for a younger demographic? Feel like stagnation typically increases with age, and I'd imagine the benefits are felt a lot more when your body has a worse baseline to begin with. Great study regardless, glad light is being shined on the benefits of physical activity!

Every time any acquaintance who spends almost all waking hours in front of a screen, not moving, eating bad food, smoking, with not much socialization outside of digital communications tells me "I feel bad" or "my mental health is bad" I can only bring it all back to lack of activity.

Besides the "but I am a nerd and sport is for jocks" stance is just an excuse.

American civilization is designed to make money - if it can make more money with you sick and depressed vs happy - you know what they will do.

Now that e-bikes will flatten many hilly towns - we can all get outside a bit more.

Towns need to orient their lots to be centered around 1/2 mile x 1/2 mile mixed use zoning nodes where very little parking exists. Single family zoning between the village nodes.

That alone will do half the work of eliminating obesity. Just get people walking 1/4 mile two times a day.

I wish the rich people around 1900 had more financial interest in livable cities than the huge automobile dystopia we all live in now.

I would recommend Spark by John Ratey for a brilliant look at the mechanisms at play here.

Funny, as a French and non native English speaker, this title gives the feeling that they are testing the effectiveness of physical activity for "increasing" depression, anxiety, distress.

I would have written "for reducing/mitigating" depression, ...

It's prob simpler to just learn the lesson that "improve" doesn't mean "go up".

And unlike the words "reduce" and "mitigate", you can use "improve" with a list of things that don't all swing the same direction. e.g. "By eating creatine, I improved my blood pressure (down) and bench press (up)."

improving a negative metrics has always carried a punny ambiguity

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