Female coders, lighten up | Hacker News Reader

Female coders, lighten up

redcode.nl

13 pointswillvarfar15 comments

http://blog.jgc.org/2012/03/call-yourself-brogrammer-then-ge... is also relevant

That's a very inflammatory title for a non-controversial blogpost.

Let me ask a question that I've often wondered:

Many women believe that there are clearly serious problems within the IT/programming industry that discourage their participation. Why are male programmers so quick to dismiss and minimize their concerns?

I believe that in most cases the Male programmers have a hard time digesting the "discouragement" angle because it simply clashes so hard with their own experience of getting into the IT/Programming field.

A recurring theme in this debate is that women are discouraged from studying CS, or perusing a career in Computing because of various discouraging factors; maybe they were put off by the "geek" stereotype, or were convinced that programming is a "boys job", etc, etc. This adds up to a sad situation where young girls who would otherwise be excellent programmers are discouraged from ever learning to code.

Now on the other hand, we have the male programmer, for whom it was all a simple matter of "I like this, so I'll do more of it", which then snowballed into a career. No blocking factors, no discouragement. So naturally the male programmer in this example doesn't really understand what it's like to be discouraged from IT/Programming and thus they are quick to dismiss and minimize those concerns.

Those of us who are, perhaps, a little older remember a time when 'getting into' any sort of field the relied on a compiler generally came with a lot of self study, little or no money, certainly no social status but an awful lot of scorn. Before there was a 'revenge of the nerds' there was a state worth seeking vengeance from.

It's not right, clever or productive but it's not hard to see how complaining about the social hurdles, to an incumbent demographic who were largely ostracized by same, isn't likely to engender much sympathy.

That being said barriers to entry should be lower for _everybody_.

Recognizing that behaviors which one thought were innocent might actually be hurtful and alienating to others is a very uncomfortable and difficult thing to do. Getting defensive is a much easier option.

Maybe simply talking, explaining to those who alienate us would save a lot of frustration. Some comments are made innocently, they do not mean any real harm. But the perception of the receiving person might be different, depending on their culture, mood, or who knows what.

However, without communicating it, there is no way for the former to know about it. And it needs to be explained directly, or right on the spot, if you really feel so strong about this particular issue. If it was indeed done innocently it should be no problem to sort it out. It is a little unfair to put everybody on the same boat without giving them a chance to see the situation the same way you do. And maybe the offended person will find out they didn't need to be offended, after all.

Anyway, general comments in blogs, while helpful to vent and rant, are usually not aimed at anyone in particular and then of course no one takes it personally. No one will think "oh, so that specific comment I made the other day, they thought it was offensive". It actually creates tension and eventually working with others becomes awkward and uncomfortable, because everybody is too busy trying to figure out what is appropriate and what is not.

>Some comments are made innocently, they do not mean any real harm

Why do so many people fail to realize, while negative intent makes actions malicious, lack of negative intent doesn't make actions harm free?

A 90 lb dog can severely injure a human even if it's just playing, same for Everything you say, even if it's "not intended to harm"

Yes, but these actions need not the same response as others that were meant to be harmful. There's a difference between murder and homicide, for example.

And yet the fact that there is a difference does not mean that one should go punished while the other should not.

To bring it back to the question of whether it's appropriate to respond to unwitting acts of sexism with anger: Depending on the particulars, it very well can be. Calmly talking about things is preferable in many circumstances where civility is valued at a premium, but it has limited utility in that it isn't particularly salient. Whereas a few harsh words can really grab someone's attention, and can show them that what they said was hurtful, rather than merely telling them. And, this being the 21st century, oftentimes the reason why someone might still unwittingly ostracize women is quite likely to be because, to put it bluntly, they're kind of dense. Meaning that harsh words might get through to them where soft words won't.

Done correctly, it can still be a compassionate act. Especially if the attention-grabbing jab is followed up by more patient, civil conversation. A little pain now in exchange for a lifetime of improved relations with the rest of one's own species is a pretty good deal, all told.

I think the article is wrong in saying that the problem is caused by bullies and aggressive people. (At least I understood that.) The problem is more general than that and is hard grained on a lot of people and not only the ones who feel superior to women or want to hurt others.

It does sound like she needs to lighten up a bit though.... (JK!) ;)

Seriously, I'm starting to believe the reason that there's not more female coders/developers has something to do with all the men that are already there....

"Obviously there are a lot of jerks, assholes and plain rude people around. Most of them are men, some are women."

Not a very good addition to the sexism discussion.

Calling women girls doesn't make your case better...

"Female coders lighten up" and "Female Coders, lighten up" have two very different meanings, the latter being the actual headline.

thx fixed

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