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Comment by tbalsam | Hacker News Reader

It's also likely got some sort of basis in the oligodynamic effect, as Titanium rips apart cell walls passively that way as well. How much each does each, I can't say.

Works for a lot of other metals, like bismuth (you wonder how Pepto stops diarrhea? Oligodynamic effect, among other things), copper, silver (yes, they put this in some medical dressings and such for hospitals, it kills MRSA as do many oligodynamic metals). Usually does the vast majority of its self-sanitization within a few _hours_, not days, as I best understand it.

It's an excellent and still-underappreciated effect. Use it in your everyday life, I know I go out of my way too and it's quite worth it! :3 :')))) < :')

Nothing too new about this article. Titanium white is a good self-sanitizing pigment if you need it, though I'd recommend talking to the appropriate professional before doing anything funky with anything. Stay safe! <3 :'))))

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect

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Thanks for adding a new word to my vocabulary! I knew that silver had antimicrobial properties but didn’t know the phenomenon had a name.

I think the material described in the article is a bit more novel than you’re giving it credit for though. The article has an image showing an intact bacteria on polished titanium next to a ruptured bacteria on this new surface. My guess is that the increased surface area of this new material allows for the oligodynamic effect to act more quickly.

About 5-10 years ago there used to be a bunch of tupperware products impregnated with silver nanoparticles which were supposed to slow the growth of mold, fungus and bacteria until they were shut down by the EPA as unregistered/untested pesticides.

That is very cool. I'm currently experimenting with dyeing my armpit hair with dyes containing oligodynamic metals to reduce the amount of noxiousness induced from long-haul (weeks-months) backpacking trips (it's what I do). Deodorant is just not worth the weight. Self-sanitizing body hair and clothes? Yes. I could do my head hair as well but I'd rather have that professionally dyed for sake of aesthetics.

Dead bacteria under clothes do not seem to care about aesthetics.

Already did it with my socks. They're all oddly colored, but no matter how many days in a row I've worn them to make them smell, a few-12 or so hours out of the shoe and the smell just...fades to a regular "human" smell (like if someone showered vigorously without soap. It's actually a rather neutral-pleasant smell).

This is partially also because even after weeks without a shower or scrub in the river I still somehow retain my sense of smell of myself. It's... terrible. Would not wish it on anyone. Losing that sense of smell is an absolute gift, I say! :D :'))))

So, in this and in a few other cases, having everything being self sanitizing is much more convenient.

Plus, if it's strong enough, as the compounds I chose/currently use are non-toxic even if ingested directly in large quantities before dyeing, I can use my dry spare shirt as a self-sterilizing wound dressing if needed (just rinse w/clean water, or river water and leave it for a few hours if worried about exogenous compound contamination, but it is/should be fortunately quite sterile), or if my water filter breaks, I can simply clean an article of clothing thoroughly (soapless) in the water supply, then suspend it in whichever water vessel I'm putting contaminated water in for a few hours to sterilize it nearly completely. Won't remove petroleum derivatives or anything like that (unless the fabric adsorption really is that good), unfortunately, but bacteria/viruses/etc are one of the big kickers.

You can see how oligodynamic materials open up a new world of safety, comfort, convenience, and light weight in the world of ultralight backpacking.

Currently I'm working as well on building a carrying system that uses all of my day to day elements but does not involve a backpack. Test run alpha1 is today. Hurray! :')))) :3 <3 <3 <3 <3 :'))))

[Final note: I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice, I carry niacinamide for emergency treatment of infectious that do not respond to antibiotics. It can and will kill MRSA in many cases as well due to the fact that it causes the body to upregulate a huge variety of anti-viral, anti-bacterial, anti-parasitic, etc proteins, i.e. the body's own broad spectrum antibiotics. I encourage everyone to carry 5-6+ 500mg pills in their emergency kit and an adjunct, even if to slow down progression while out of civilization.

I could go on about these topics for a long time, I'm an empirical researcher, darn it! It's how my brain seems to be. :3]

If you don't mind me asking, what dyes have you found effective?

Copper pthalocyanidine (generally good-looking+most accessible that I know of, so I've stuck with that <3 :')), you can get it as powder online (cheapest+lightest) or as watercolor paint (it's called Pthalo Blue -- yes, of Bob Ross fame. Phalo Green has Cobalt IIRC, not the same, dunno about toxicity there. Check to make sure the dye is pure Copper Pthalocyanidine on the manufacturers website). I'm sure there are others, but the ones I've found don't bind nearly as well unfortunately, which is what we care about (transforming fabrics, proteins, compounds, etc to become an oligodynamic surface when not previously. As an aside, finding a silver compound of some sort that is A. Not damaging long-term, and B. acid-dyeing compatible would truly be my dream! <3 :')))))

Acid dye in a pot you don't care about as much (or not, it's your life!), citric acid in the canning section is the easiest to get. I use maybe 3-4 tablespoons or so. Add maybe a tablespoon of salt too.

Make it easier on yourself by putting warm water in the pot, adding the watercolor, and stirring until well mixed. Then run water from the faucet into the sink until it's as hot as it can get, and fill it almost all of the way. Then mix in your salt and acid. _Make sure you don't have bleach in your clothes, the acid will turn it into chlorine gas. In large quantities this can chemically destroy your lungs and if you're too far gone you'll suffocate. Not likely if you're careful, just adding the warning. If you've pre-bleached, rinse several times very thoroughly and soak until there is no more bleach remaining_.

Then add clothing, and heat water until it's maybe ~150-170 degrees or so, I just use a touch test (can handle up to 1-1.5 seconds) and err on the lower heat side, leaving it for a few hours. Stir and move the clothes so they have even contact with the water. Otherwise you'll get a blotchy dye. See Reddit for more details. I like the blotches, they're cute and add tons of personality.

Continue until the water is nearly clear. Acid dyeing will oftentimes soak up almost all of the dye in the water.

Let it cool, run it through several rinses in the washing machine. You can pour the warm liquid and clothes straight in. If you didn't have enough salt it might not be colorfast.

Repeat 2-3 times or more or until satisfied with the color.

You can also do this with your skin, a plastic barrier, and an (please be safe!!!!!!) appropriately warm heat source. For certain parts where skin cells rub off and give off an acrid odor when decaying, dyeing the outer layer lasts for about a week, looks a semi-deathly, semi-traditional-scottish-impression color of a deeper cyan blue, and resists bacterial growth for the time. As these cells are dyed, when they come off they will be self-sterilizing, reducing the off-byproducts afterwards. You can simply then rinse it off your clothing, and yourself, in a sink, shower, river, while traveling or the like, etc, etc. In the right circumstances, few people will be staring at your armpits, etc with the right clothing. :3 <3 :')))) <3

Also, if you have two gallon ziplock bags (nested, one as the 'outer catcher', be sure to remove air to keep all garments as submerged as possible, and you control your temperature well, and do not care as much about your water use, you can dye garments in a hotel room sink this way. You can also minimize water wastage (especially if the sink has an overflow system) by setting a continuous 'hot-as-possible' slow drip. Check it it 1, 2, and 5 minutes in to make sure the rate has not changed or the water temperature, when doing the drip method initially it can seem hot enough because the hot water is very "fresh", but slowing it down can cause an equilibrium where it is cooler due to the lag time in arriving from the water heater. (Also, if you do use this method in the future, please do let me know! I'd love to know someone else is doing this too and if there's any ambiguity, possible improvements, etc etc....)

As you can see, I am an absolute fanatic for low-resource, high-quality (or high-quality result, at least), engineering.

I could happily talk about this for hours or any particular usecase you might have, there are many ways to approach things. I've used these methods (among others similarly creative;P) to remove a surprising amount of weight from my backpacking kit, and I have much more flexibility too. This is also how I approach neural network research, but I love this domain as it's one that's directly relatable to many people, and somewhat allows me to be seen in what I feel I'm best at.

In any case, thank you for reading this if you made it this far, as I noted before, I would absolutely be overjoyed to talk about any usecases you might have <3 :)))) :')))) <3

Have you thought about writing up al of your research? It’s fascinating. I’m also curious if you track your blood tests to see if any metals are making it into your bloodstream from this process.

> (it's called Pthalo Blue -- yes, of Bob Ross fame. Phalo Green has Cobalt IIRC, not the same, dunno about toxicity there. Check to make sure the dye is pure Copper Pthalocyanidine on the manufacturers website)

Phthalo green is copper based like phthalo blue, except with more chlorine substitutions.

I’d stay far away from any dyes or watercolors containing cobalt, cadmium, chromium, or the other heavy metals unless they’re known safe (B12 contains a cobalt atom so they’re not universally toxic but better safe than sorry). They’re safe as oil paints when they’re not water soluble but I don’t know if drying oils on skin are a good idea.

That's a great idea! I'd love to publish something once it's sorta converged for me and has a "workperson's well-worn wrench" quality to it. :') I might even publish in video form just to make it more accessible to people! :)

And my greatest apologies on the cobalt confusion! I have no idea where I got that as being Pthalo green from. Cobalt Pthalocyanidine seems to exist as a chemical, not lots of pictures, but the one site I saw said...red?

I do generally avoid most of those messy ones. Sadly I'm allergic to bismuth vanadate (considered safe), which is shame as it's a lovely yellow color.

I was really hyped about silver nitrate due to how many people said it was "harmless", but that seemed to be assuming one-off events. Apparently it has some negative long-term effects, which is a shame as getting silver well-into and integrated into that outer layer of the skin without an acid dyeing process is...so much easier. And, it's silver! Alas, it's not meant to be, it seems :'(

I'm sure I'll find a good substitute at some point. :') (And thanks again for the correction :3)

I wonder if those compounds would bind well with Henna for your hair treatment idea.

It'll be a no-go for hiking given the extreme weight, but you might be interested anyway: a youtuber called Cody's Lab made himself a copper chainmail shirt[1], and did notice antimicrobial properties

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTXI3zGkGtI (pretty sure he talks about the antimicrobial properties in this video, if not here then it's a similar video)

Oh my gosh, thank you for sharing! I really appreciate it! :')))) <3 <3 <3 <3 :'))))

I'm hoping to be below 12-13 pounds base weight this time, which is 18-22+ with food and water. Lots of ultralight people are in this general range (and lower! ;PPPP). I still have some cheaper, heavy gear (tarp being a big one). Swapping out a no-pack for my bulky 4.5 pounder internal frame should save me almost exactly under 4 pounds or so, getting me close to that goal. Woop Woop! ;DDDDDDDD

Cody I think is an incredible human being. He inspired me with his silver nitrate video, sadly the acid/chemical burns long term were the big kicker. Maybe if totally necessary in a freak one-off situation?!?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ooFw-teZ3L8

Have you found that what you eat has an impact to the way you smell?

Afaik this is still used in compound packaging materials (e.g. tetrapak).

Traditionally in the alps richer families would put a silver spoon into their milk for similar reasons.

This is fascinating, wow. Thank you for sharing that.

If it was not clear from my earlier oligodynamic post, I'm autistic and the fewer day-disrupting routines I have (washing cup with soap, I'm allergic to almost any detergent so it's a ....very long and stressful process to make it 'drinkable' and safe-feeling [unfortunately only detergent seems to get the biofilm]) the better.

I've heard of farmers putting copper pennies in their rain barrels (yes, it actually works, apparently increases the amount of copper ions in the water a decent bit though IIRC? There's some downside), I hadn't thought of the silver contact bit.

I struggle with cups building biofilm quickly, I'll have to electroplate some with silver or just put a piece of silver in there in the meantime to keep it clean for longer-term storage.

Much happier with my symptoms since I switched to using (unscented) Dr Bronner soap. All organic and food safe ingredients. I buy the liquid and use it in a foaming dispenser.[0]

The same folks make an actual detergent called Sal's Suds. Very drying but works well. I did use it, but these days I use the regular Castile soap for everything. Your mileage may vary of course.

Unscented oxyclean (they do make it!) is a godsend for laundry, dishwasher, etc. Absolutely zero residue.

For biofilms, cheap dollar store nylon scrub brushes (no "gummy" handle) are fantastic, and also their cheap multi-pack toothbrushes. Soaking in soapy water for 5-10 minutes (I set a timer) is surprisingly powerful.

Almost accidentally, I find myself using just one drinking cup. This does keep it very manageable.

I rarely burn things anymore, but 3M scouring pads from Lowes have saved more than a couple pots. :)

Adaptation is a continuous learning process! Hope some of this can help or inspire. cheers.

[0] https://www.lisabronner.com/making-a-foaming-hand-soap-with-...

Oh my gosh, thank you so much, love. This is years of experience/advice as liquid gold in your comment, thank you so much, dearie bun! :')))) <3

I react even to All Free and Clear, and have carried Bronner's while backpacking but haven't tried just the raw version yet (I habitually rinse ASAP). I'll see if the unscented version is really good!

I will find the unscented oxyclean too.

Thank you so very much from a person with an all-too-sensitive body, and much love! If you have any others, happy to hear, but thank you so much! <3 :')))) These mean to so much to me. :')))) <3

Glad to hear!

If you're looking for a random eclectic set of recommendations:

* My latest thing is giant sun protective hats, especially ones which drape functionally over the back of the neck.[0] Useful search terms are fishing, boating, and gardening hats.

* Powerstep insoles. They're #1 with podiatrists for a reason. You just need someone to check the height of your foot arch before ordering (Youtube has guides for this).

* I buy lots and lots of sunglasses from the dollar store (ahem, a "tree" in my region). The resulting abundance ensures I always have a pair when I need it. Identical to the $10-20 ones, but I don't care when I inevitably lose or break them. Tip: nail clippers can trim the plastic burr on the hinge, so they open wider and won't cause headaches.

* The same dollar store sells 100-packs of thin disposable food service gloves. Snip the corner of the bag to make a dispensing hole. LIFE CHANGING for pumping gas, no more gasoline hands. Literally gloves in my glove box, haha.

* Speaking of gloves, the thick black gloves at Harbor Freight are nice. Cheap yet so thick they're effectively reusable, especially if you buy one size up.

* For wildfire/campfire/dusty activities/viruses, I pull out this dorky thing.[1] Its dorkiness is matched only by its effectiveness. :D I gave tips about using it here.[2]

* For air filtration, I'm a big fan of the Filtrete 1900 (MERV 13) filters. Low restriction, and just the "sweet spot" of efficiency vs airflow. I put them in my HVAC system — some restriction yes, but much better than others! Also great for "Corsi box" DIY filters.

* Tip: 3M won't recommend this, but to clean and reuse these filters indefinitely I first modify them by pulling off the metal mesh on the intake side (wear leather work gloves for this!!!), and then I can vacuum up and down each "valley" with a standard crevice tool. The filters aren't crazy expensive honestly, but it pleases my anti-waste sensibilities.

* One last cheapie: I grab a big bag of foam earplugs (Harbor Fright again) and cut them in half. The modification prevents them from popping out, and makes them comfortable enough to wear longer. Modern activities/society is surprisingly loud — it turns out hearing loss isn't really a 'natural' part of aging, it's all just environmental exposure. I keep a few earplugs in that useless little pants pocket. I learned this from someone on HN who tried it as an experiment, so I guess it's my turn now. :)

That's all I can think of for now, but here's a tip I wish I had known earlier:

* If some new purchase smells like an injection molding facility (AKA everything), I scrub it 3x with soap and hot water, then hang it outside (yes really!) for a week. Somehow the sun bleaching works magic like nothing else. This process could even completely remove odor from my anti-fatigue "puzzle piece" floor mats, a process which normally takes months on its own.

Okay now I'm fried. :) This has been fun! Sorry if the list is a bit scattershot. If you have specific areas you want me to focus in on, don't hesitate to ask.

Hopefully at least one person can benefit from something on this list. peace.

[0] eg https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0C27F3Y2K/

[1] https://www.amazon.com/BROAD-Rechargeable-Electrical-Purifyi...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34378478

Cont'd:

* LIGHTS. How could I forget? I switched to all 2700 K color temperature. GE "Relax" LEDs are rather nice. I find it's good to step up to the next brighter bulb, since warmer light can appear dimmer.

* For indoor locations with harsh lights, eyewear with yellow-tinted lenses (true "blue blocking") can be used to improve comfort. Again I just pay $1, so I have several pair.

* A spray bottle of generic 70% isopropyl alcohol is highly multi-functional. It can be used as hand sanitizer, but it doesn't have sticky residue or fragrance. It can clean a minor cut or scrape. It can substitute for wet wipes — just double up the paper and spritz it. I've even used it as a "squirt gun" flyswatter — no aerosolized fly guts! Tip: if you buy this at The Tree Of Dollars, choose the conical hair stylist sprayers in Health and Beauty (mostly indestructible), NOT the big tall ones in Cleaning (they break immediately). Again I get a bunch, so when I lose one it's only a dollar and I have spares.

* I broke down and got a refurb Dyson cordless. No dust smell, it's amazing. I got the one with the same name as tomato juice. The dock feature is really absurdly convenient. I hang a set of ear protectors next to it, and even mounted a cheap organizer I found online so all the tools have a home where they snap in place. And yes, probably I only like it because it has bright colors and shiny LEGO plastic and it makes satisfying tactile clicking sounds. I've decided I'm allowed to give myself permission to like that, because life's too damn short. ;)

Anyway probably nobody will see this late addendum, but if anyone has specific requests for a certain problem please feel free to ask. I'll check this thread every couple days until the two week timeout.

cheers

Yeah, in the USA outside of some rare exceptions, anything that makes claims of killing or controlling a pest, whether weed, bug or microbe, becomes a "pesticide" and enters a realm with a LOT of expensive regulation and testing on efficacy claims, target safety, and non-target safety. Most companies will quickly opt out of that shitshow.

For example, you can't just decide to sell acetic acid (vinegar) claiming it's a weed killer without following the same rules as the megacorps. And it's also why if you took jugs of "unregistered" grocery store vinegar, and applied it as a pesticide, you can get in big trouble. Now no one will really care if you do it as a homeowner unless you get really carried away, but if you were a commercial applicator of some kind then expect trouble if caught. This is what that warning "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with it's labeling" stamped on everything means.

This leads into weird scenarios where things like some ordinary phosphorus foliar fertilizers have a mild antimicrobial effect (I believe mostly against fungus, but I don't recall clearly) and everyone knows it. However no one can make that specific claim as part of a sale, because then the cheap fertilizer becomes an expensive pesticide. So an agronomist and farmer just wink and say "yeah, those plants with a fungal outbreak could sure use some nutrition to help it's vitality". Note that on it's own the phosphorous isn't likely to control anything, but can definitely help in combination with a real control, or delay how soon control is needed possibly saving a regulated spray.

I believe the EU recognizes one of the phosphorous fertilizer forms as a pesticide, and thus growers here cannot apply it if that is where the crop will be exported.

To be clear, you absolutely do NOT want companies to apply things willy-nilly as pesticides. They have repeatedly demonstrated the lack of ability to self regular and as such will always race to the bottom of irresponsibility. But there are definitely a lot of seemingly brain dead consequences involved. However it makes more sense when you consider the long term environmental and pest resistance consequences involved.

Silver for example has implications that need to be watched when in constant contact with food and thus ingestion [note 0] and buildup of silver ions in the environment [note 1]. Organisms can and will become resistant to silver and copper, especially if one applies constant heavy selective environmental pressure. As such, our laws are in this instance are in fact doing what they were intended to do, regardless of obvious failures in other areas of concern.

[note 0]: Let's just ignore for a moment that silver is remarkably safe and doesn't seem to act as a disruptive "heavy metal" because it's bound safely so quickly. Even in extreme amounts taken by fanatics, tissue pigmentation is seemingly all that happens. Meanwhile the plastic used for the containers that is in contact with your food is likely far worse in comparison.

[note 1]: Let's just ignore the massive failure of regulating the effects of all the other antimicrobials, microplastics and pharmaceuticals dumped in the water supply...

Silver in tableware, doorknobs, etc… passive anti microbial effect

Same with brass and copper - copper has an antimicrobial effect in the same way.

Yes - one of the reasons I'm not too thrilled with the trend towards plastic plumbing.

Does Pepto-Bismol indiscriminately kill bacteria in the gut then by this effect?

I would assert so, oddly enough different metals kill different bacteria, let's see.

I shall now search ncbi and see: Bismuth apparently has action, especially highlighted against E. Coli: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8236042/

One study found few significant changes on normal fecal microflora before and after during a 1-2 day treatment period (I'm assuming this is a 'normal use' case :')))): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2305174/

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