Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard
danieldk.eu
danieldk.eu
I now have a production model with the white clicky keyswitches. Ultra happy with it. I've been using Kinesis Advantage2s for a shade over two decades - the same model DanielDK used for a long time. The Glove80 is simply better. I prefer the clicky keyswitches. Ergonomics are great. It's really repairable - everything is held together with screws (spare parts for my Advantage2s are not available, and the function keys are not repairable). Open firmware so you can make it do wacky stuff if the need arises. Small and light enough for travel - I should get a proper case but it's survived a fair few trips stuffed into my backpack.
Yeah, adaptation to new keyboard layouts is hard. I used a layout that mimicked my old Advantage2 - so I'd paid the cost to learn columnar already. I found the default Glove80 layout was better, but switching meant a month of confusing Ctrl and Shift. All better now!
The double-length keys for bk/delete/enter/space allows a lot of vertical travel freedom on the hand. Instead of flexing the fingers I can just move the whole hand down and hit the lower row _very_ comfortably while not having to worry about the thumb at all.
I've mocked a few pieces of paper to advantage with the shape of the glove80 cluster and I really can't decide if that's good or bad. While the inner thumb keys of the advantage are pretty far from the key wells, the most important modifiers are all closer compared to the glove80.
Trying it on the mockup, the glove80 cluster placement forces my hand on a higher position and requires the thumb to stretch more.
I've been looking at the advantage 360 and I don't like the complete removal of the Fn row, while at the same time I also hate the old Fn keys on the advantage. The glove80 layout is really nice, but I find the thumb cluster of the advantage to be pretty darn good.
One thing to note is that the Glove80 thumb cluster plane is at a very different location and angle, compared to the the Kinesis Advantage thumb cluster plane. In fact the Glove80 thumb cluster plane is much lower and slant down gently (nowhere as much as DM) towards the opposite half. OTOH the KA thumb cluster sits significantly higher than the keywell.
Due to the thumb plane difference, "the glove80 cluster placement forces my hand on a higher position and requires the thumb to stretch more" is not the case in reality for me.
I rest my hands with the pinky/thumb at about 15' (that is, the hand is is not with the palm flat but at about 45" compared to the keyboard). If I extend pinky and thumb, they're naturally on the same plane.
If I could tent the halves though that 1cm of difference would be nice.
On the kinesis I can hit comfortably ctrl+alt + "=" (and pretty much any other key on either half) with thumb+pinky, on both halves. Holding shift is also entirely possible with pinky or ring, even in combination with ctrl/alt/ctrl+alt and while typing with the remaining 3 fingers.
Seems a stupid thing to do when written, and maybe it is, but hey .. emacs, and I'm doing it with ease actually. I normally chord the modifiers with one hand and type with the other, but if there's a weird combination I'll just do it with a single hand too.
I could definitely 3d-print an entire glove80 mock if I found a model.
For a long time I've been pondering about just 3d-printing a modified dacytl to fit my own preferences, but it's one of those things I wish to just pay for, have some QC without wasting time, and be done.
Left Side Backspace Delete Ctrl Alt Home End
Right Super Key Ctrl Page Up Page Down Enter Space
The keys are easy to hit, but the biggest problem is the space bar. On a typical keyboard the space bar is accessible from either thumb. This makes it so that if you are using the mouse and are playing an FPS, then you can still jump. This is not possible on the Kinesis Advantage withought modifying the keys. I use the Smartset program, and have a profile specifically for games that fixes this, but it might be annoying to some
The second is that fact that there is not print screen key on the advantage. I take a lot of screenshots for work so this is annoying. I've set one of the 4 macro keys to be the key combination I need to make screenshots, but again this required some configuration.
With that being said I still like the keyboard. My hands feel great even after 12 hours of mixed browsing, coding, and writing. My posture is better, and I don't get pain in my vertebrae next to my shoulder blade. But there are definitely things I would change if I was making it from scratch. Maybe in the future I'll Diy a dactyl-manuform^1 which has the perfect switches and layout for me.
More info here: https://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/
I need it after squinting to read the ultra-fine low contrast font on their website...
Perhaps things have improved over the years, but I could not imagine a user interface that would cater to both my physical and mental well-being.
Also, my colleagues find it very annoying when I stand up and start pacing around when I am thinking something through.
Try to get into the habit to stretch your wrists/fingers when you are not using them and try to do the same thing with your eyes (eyes are muscles too), by e.g. focusing onto something far away, rolling your eyes, etc.
If you are of the type that gets lost in work some reminder can help, but I think it is better to form habits of using thinking breaks to do the stretching. Nobody types regularily for 3 hours straight without interrupting to think at least for a bit once every few minutes. If you use these breaks to stretch, you will be fine.
Ultimately a person with good habits will be able to work healthy with seemingly unergonomic setups, while a person with bad habits will be able to use even the most ergonomic setup in unhealthy ways.
Everybody knows that collegue who has that incredibly expensive ergonomic chair and sits on it like a bored prototypical teenager. Habits will always trump tools, unless your tools are so incredibly bad, it will be self evident that they are.
More recently, someone took my chair and moved the head rest by a few centimeters. This pushed my head forward a bit - bam ! Neck pain.
You might want to check your chair/posture ( or it might be unrelated).
If you are otherwise healthty, doing those exercises 15 to 30 minutes per day will have you pain gone in a week.
And if you get a feeling for which muscles they are targeting you might be able to find variations of those stretches that you can do inbetween while sitring at your computer.
For me it’s thinking, writing a few lines and start thinking again.
One programmer guy I know who had RSI problems was actually writing way too much and overly verbose code and also literally banged on the keys instead of pressing them.
I never would have imagined I will have such problems...
It's probably the combination of many factors, probably age mostly, but I'm also experimenting with Emacs, with Ctrl being on Caps-Lock and I think that has triggered the problem. Thumb-tip pain is probably from the SpaceFn layout, but the other finger-tips, no idea.
My main keyboard is a Leopold FC M660 with Cherry blues, but IIRC the problems has already started on a stock 60% Cherry MX with linear red switches.
I've also experimented with vegetarian diet for 11 months, which fucked up my guts and ass, plus I always felt super tired, then a beef + potato only diet for 6 months, but that made my joints hurt. Pretty much caused gout, which is also supposed to be worsened by drinking high-fat milk, which I do drink about a liter a day, like I did most of my life. But then the problems has slowly subsided. Not sure what has changed though; I only got older...
I discovered them when I started my first job at HP-UX in Cupertino, CA and a bunch of people there were using them.
I also switched to Dvorak a few years before than.
I don't like their V2 offering, as an emacs user the caps lock key is gimped and I don't need the windows key near the ctrl / alt keys.
The tablet is no larger than a traditional mouse pad, it is even somewhat smaller.
The stylus, i.e. the pen, is much lighter than any pen-like mouse can be, and it has better resolution and accuracy. Because the pen works contactless and it is very light, you can move it very fast. You can point to any location on the screen faster than with anything else.
Because the pen is so light, I usually retain it between my fingers while I am touch typing, without noticing that I still keep it, which shortens a lot the transitions between typing and using the graphic pointer. I leave the pen on the tablet only before starting to type a long text.
The tablet is switched to "relative" mode at startup, so it behaves as an ordinary mouse. I use it under Linux, where it has excellent support.
The equivalent of the mouse buttons is configurable. I have chosen to touch the tablet with the pen for left click, and to use the two thumb buttons for right click and for double left click.
After I have begun to use a graphic tablet instead of a mouse, trackball, trackpoint or touchpad a couple of years ago, my only regret is that I have not thought to try this earlier, because at least for me it is much more comfortable than the alternatives, and it is also much more precise, being easy to use for drawings or signatures.
WACOM_ID=$(xsetwacom list | grep STYLUS | cut -f 2 | cut -d " " -f 2)
xsetwacom set "$WACOM_ID" "Button" "2" "button +3 "
xsetwacom set "$WACOM_ID" "Button" "3" "button +1 -1 +1 -1 "
xsetwacom set "$WACOM_ID" "Mode" "Relative"
The line that discovers WACOM_ID is necessary because the Wacom device driver does not always use the same device numbers, even when nothing has been inserted or extracted in or from the USB ports. Moreover, even the Wacom subdevices are not always listed in the same order, hence the need to use grep for row select.
There are many other ways to execute a script on startup, where you can add these lines.
The acceleration of the Wacom mouse cursor is configured in the standard desktop settings.
"button +3 " means that the associated action is right click.
"button +1 -1 +1 -1 " means that the associated action is left double click.
I have left the default action for touching the tablet with the pen, which is left click. Selection by pointing and touching is even more natural than with a mouse or other alternatives.
This is hard to explain but my experience with my Kinesis Advantage is that the keys above the home row and especially the function keys (really just function buttons) are too high and are oriented with the faces of these keys too angled towards my hands (i.e. the normal vector from the top of the keycaps are angled at perhaps 45 degrees from vertical). So on an "ordinary" keyboard, like a laptop keyboard, the surface of the keycaps are roughly parallel to the surface of the laptop keyboard. On such an ordinary keyboard it is quite easy to press the number keys and function keys without a lot of finger flexing, while on the Kinesis Advantage I feel like I am curling my fingers then lifting my whole hand and then straightening my fingers to kind of punch the keys like one would press a button mounted on a wall. (Does this elaborate explanation even make sense or am I just being picky?)
I greatly prefer typing on the Kinesis Gaming Keyboard. These feel better than using welled keyboards to me.
So seeing the Glove80, I was excited to see a new "mass-manufactured" entrant in the space, since dactyl manuforms have to be 3d-printed and handwired, thus meaning they're hard to come by and quite expensive.
The glove80 looks interesting, however at $400 it's not much cheaper than handmade dactyls (https://bastardkb.com/product/scylla-prebuilt-preorder-2/). So if I were purchasing another one, I'd probably still go for a dactyl, as there's more community history/support, and hand-built build quality might be higher.
If an injection molded + flexible PCB mass manufacturer for these curved keywell ergonomic keyboards could release something for around $200, then the space might really heat up!
What do you like about your Glove80 thumb cluster?
You can find well-priced Glove80s sometimes. I was particularly lucky and found one for 150 Euro. But for the other, the 360 Euro was well spent!
At any rate, people spend thousands on a MacBook, but for a product that probably lasts longer and might save your job long-term, we suddenly practice extreme austerity. When I had my brush with wrist pain, I realized that the money spent on a good keyboard, chair, and desk is nothing compared to the income lost if I can’t work until I’m retiring.
Though honestly if it broke, I'd probably just pay for the next one, not worth the labor (literally hundreds of solder points and hand wiring over like 30 hours). I did it mostly to learn about soldering/electronics and thought it would be fun.
The careful hand wiring is the laborious part, which the flexible PCB seems to solve. So I'd imagine it would take a 30 hour task down to 2 hours?
I have no more pain in my left arm after a work day, and I feel like it’s easier to sit with a proper posture.
I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simple exercises regularly in breaks and evaluate? Obviously the standard Apple keyboard has terrible ergonomics, but something slightly more reasonable could already do the trick..
The contouring significantly lowers the movement for your fingers.
In hindsight I with I’d gotten that adjustable desk and (then) Kinesis Advantage ten years ago. But then I thought it’s a waste of money and I’m doing fine with my Apple keyboard.
It's understandable that a tech community immediately turns to tech as a solution to problems, but it may not be the best solution, or at least not the only one available.
I believe in a multi-faceted approach. Exercises are great, even necessary. But avoiding pronation in the other 55 minutes of an hour, letting the blood flow, is also useful.
Why should it just be one thing?
I have not suggested that. Quite the opposite. Let's not make gadgets be the only thing that matters, even though it may be more fun to geek out on key alignment.
I have been in the MoErgo Discord for a while. When someone new comes in looking to buy a keyboard because they have wrist/hand/arm pains, the first advise consistently: go see a doctor.
Also for me big part about customizing your tools is exactly that - you get to customize your tools. I type professionally so it is insane to me when I see my colleagues working on some random laptop keyboard and screen day after day when they could spend couple hundred bucks on a nice quality keyboard and large screen or two and make their work more enjoyable.
If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't mean it won't for anybody else. It's surely not "insane".
Of course I can work with a tiny laptop screen and keyboard, but I choose to actually have a pleasurable experience when I work.
I don't know myself, as I've not reached 40, but I'll take the advice of those that have and use the appropriate tool in the recommended way.
This was about keyboards, but sure, we can talk about screen real etate too. It can be great, but it can introduce more distractions too. Having a single laptop screen in front of you makes you focus on what matters most. Those chat and mail windows can stay hidden until I need them and opt to get distracted. Others may see that differently, and that's ok.
GP said "insane to me". I understood this as a colloquial expression of disbelief or surprise rather than an actual accusation of insanity.
E.g. I might say it's insane to me that anyone likes Brussels sprouts. The state of mind of someone who could hold such a position is so alien to me as to be comparable to insanity.
But no amount of dynamic sitting and no ergonomic chair will make the bad influence of sitting go away — this can only be dealt with excercise, breaks and stretching. And every ergonomic chair can be misused. A person with good habits can sit healthy on a rock, a person with bad habits can sit unhealthy on a custom made ergonomic chair.
The same is true for the hands. As a life-long multi-instrumentalist with trained hands and fingers I could totally see someone with a laptop and the right habits ultimatly acting healthier as someone with the wrong habits and the best ergonomic keyboard that exists for them.
And this is the truth: Everything that involves the human motor system is never just about the objects we interact with, but always also to a major degree how we interact with them. My grand-grandmother that worked in her garden with 109 didn't have any ergonomic tools (as they didn't exist), but all the right habits. Habits are always more important than tools.
I do not suffer from RSI, but I have different keyboards for different things.
I am sure there are exceptions to this, but from my experience these people also aren’t nearly as productive as people who have usable, comfortable setups
Even though my wrist issues have disappeared, I wish I could tell the younger me, who could type all day on a grey slab without breaks on a crappy chair, to care about ergonomics and improve along all these dimensions.
Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse. It doesn't matter if I've spent the previous 3 months offline doing yoga (getting very thorough full-body movement) or totally absorbed in some computer-y project - "normal" input devices hurt! My shoulders and back are more tolerant, but eventually they start to ache too.
It's likely I didn't take care of myself properly earlier in life, but using a split keyboard and tilted thumb-operated trackball mean I can continue coding without nerve pain.
To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.
IME, what has worked for me is to make the interval of the "regular breaks" on the order of one hour. The break isn't much, just get up, grab a glass of water or whatever, moving my arms and wrists a bit, then sit back down.
> To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.
I fully agree with this.
The only hardware issue that couldn't be solved with this approach and required a new keyboard was the wrists-angled-up situation imposed by a 2012-era Apple keyboard (don't know if they've evolved since).
I've always refused to type for longer than a few minutes on keyboards that don't at least lay flat on the table. And for the keyboards I use every day (when sitting at my home or work desk) I've insisted on keyboards with a wrist rest and no number pad. I have a TKL one at home, and I think even that may be too large. My "75%" (laptop style, with the arrows under Enter and HOME / END / etc in a column to the right of Enter) is perfect.
I don't think your question comes from the right corner of the problem space to begin with.
If you have a class of products which are linked with health problems in a subset of the population, and another set of problems that mitigate or eliminate said health problems in that subset of the population, then why should we complain about the products that are designed explicitly to protect your health?
And think about it: it your keyboard is causing health problems, why are you exploring solutions that involve perpetuating the root cause of your problem?
From a health pov mechanical keys are just an expensive gimmick.
Having the modifier keys in the thumb cluster feels a lot less awkward than using my left-hand little finger at odd angles. And I like the fit and finish and customisation.
Overall though, I think I would have been better served by a regular qwerty, not columnar, split keyboard. Maybe my middleaged brain ain't plastic enough any more.
<small>Plus I think the benefits of columnar are oversold. If I naturally curl my fingers in and out, they kinda fan in and out, rather move in parallel straight lines. And the right hand side of a regular keyboard matches that movement pretty well. The left hand side is backwards of course.
I type Colemak-DH, but I am experimenting on the side with letter on thumb layouts. Over the past few weeks, I have tried rsthd, Maltron, and now aptmak (30 key variant). With aptmak I am at 40 WPM after ~5 days. I still type Colemak-DH during the workday at my regular speed, I can switch to a typing tutor and type aptmak at that speed again after two minutes or so (even though I have space on the other hand).
I am sorry for all those people for which this is a really long painful process. I am sure age is a factor, but I am also past 40, so it's definitely not the only factor.
But I am fine now, have a KA2 @work, Model 100 @home and have no problems switching between them whatsoever on a daily basis. I've also ordered Glove80 and I am sure it will be fine. What I have some problems with, are those rare occasions where I travel and have to use my notebook's keyboard. Everything - staggered layout, lack of thumb cluster, no split, scissor switches - is just a source of huge discomfort.
I recc the ultimate hacking keyboard (UHK). It's as you describe, and I love it.
So when I'm experimenting with a new keyboard of key layout, I always practice on keybr.com 1st, because it tremendously speeds up the getting-used-to period!
But as other commenter said, they do not fit the standard switch slots.
[0]: https://lowprokb.ca/products/sunset-tactile-choc-switches
In what way? I was contemplating a keyboard with mechanical low profile switches. One of the reasons was that I could easily remap the keys without having to buy new keycaps, since they all have the same profile, and for some reason, every manufacturer insists on their own home / en / pg up / pg dn layout (I'm looking exclusively at "75%" and similar layouts, which put those keys in a column).
But I'm hesitant because I've trained myself to not bottom out when I type with my regular mechanical keyboards, and my fingers enjoy the lack of abrupt stop at the bottom.
I've really come to love the now discontinued Sculpt series, despite their flaws, and wish someone would just come along and produce that again with some minor iterations; fix the dongle problems, increase durability, sell it as just the keyboard, and maybe allow it to fold in half for increased portability. I'm glad there are tweakable keyboards, but I never want to do that, I just want speed, confort, versatility, familiarity, and minimal size. It would be neat to order one with custom superficial elements though. I know the Sculpt isn't loved by everyone, and maybe it's my narrow shoulders, long arms, short torso, and alien-like fingers that make it my favorite, but damn I like it. A mac version would also be cool, but I get by.
I use it at home, and when I'm working at a cafe for variety, I can just toss it in my backpack along with the dongle (that frustratingly doesn't have a dedicated compartment in the idiotic mouse+keyboard package I'm forced to buy it in) and then use it on my lap so I can deal with the odd chair to table height ratios of coffee shops.
However over the years I’ve purchased many ergo kbs: ergo dox, kinesis and variants, and I just could not get into any of those.
Until I got the UHK (Ultimate Hacking Keyboard) , and I absolutely love it. It retains the QWERTY + regular (staggered?) layout, has split/angled halves, and thumb clusters, all of which can be programmed with an excellent software.
I personally use an ergodox I built, and I will never type fast like I can on a staggered layout. I also had to fix a typing mistake (I typed c with my index on staggered, and it became 'b')
In the end it's the split that saved my wrists. I believe everyone should type on one, whatever the model.
ortholinear is the Planck EZ (https://blog.zsa.io/2307-goodbye-planck-ez/) for example.
this Glove80 is vertically staggered (or as they said in the review article: it has column stagger), NOT ortholinear.
My only gripes are the tenting legs sometimes close when I shift the keyb around on my desk. And it's not wireless (I don't have time to mod).
I've been using a Moonlander for about a year. I feel like it took at most a week for me to adjust and to attain my current typing speed. I probably type a little slower on it (maybe less accurately too), but my rate is passable (80-100 WPM). I've recently tried a Kinesis Advantage 2 for a few weeks and did not find that adjusting to it was very difficult.
Maybe I'm the odd one out here. Edit: having seen other comments here, I suspect I might be. Apologies for making switching seem trivial.
I had an Ergodox before and I like finally having function rows back, and the thumb cluster on this is at a nicer angle than both the Ergodox and Moonlander.
The wells are pretty easy to get used to and in general I think it’s just a really well made product.
I got a Kinesis Advantage 360 through Upgrade Keyboards: https://upgradekeyboards.com/collections/kinesis-advantage36... with Box White switches, and it's been great. Expensive, yes, but great. I got the wired version for the usual reasons ("he who knows wireless, chooses wired"). YMMV. I also like the brown switches but like speed switches or box whites better.
With that being said, while Kinesis' own firmware for their keyboards (SmartSet) has gotten a lot better over the years, it still doesn't really come close to ZMK or QMK. To me the functionality of the firmware trumps the occasional reliability issues of the bluetooth.
I just hate that they pushed all customization to a third party. I got another set of blank PCBs for my Kinesis Advantage 2 by emailing Kinesis support (which is fantastic, by the way) and paying roughly 100 bucks for them. Now they send you to upgradekeyboards who are expensive and have massive lead times when I just want some PCBs so I can replace the gateron browns in my keyboard without having to desolder everything.
But if the connectivity issues are indeed caused by this, the only real solution is a new hardware revision.
I cannot overstate how much better having shift keys on thumb cluster is.
And I am still waiting on a Moonlander to try out as well but DHL customs is being difficult.
I really do think this keyboard is interesting. My only concern is why not use the more mainstream cherry mx mechanism?
This is a special version of Glove80 meant for users intending to replace key switches. Soldering is required for this keyboard to function.
It takes a few days or weeks of actual usage to have an idea how suitable a certain switch type is.
It's also likely that I would choose different switches for a few keys....
This led me to HHKB JP layout for 80/20 ergo benefit without having to carry two unwieldy halves of a keyboard when I want portability. Still use Kinesis Advantage 2 at home, but nothing beats the HHKB JP when traveling.
HHKB JP is very nice in that it has a slightly reduced row stagger, is a single board, and has extra thumb keys which can be remapped to for layers or moving things such as shift or backspace into more comfortable positions.
In different arrangements of keys, some words will be easier to type than others (and some will be more difficult).
e.g. Comparing Dvorak and qwerty. -- With the example 'in', both of these letters are on home row on Dvorak, whereas both letters require reaching with the fingers on qwerty.
I don't think it's worth putting strong weight on any one example.
I'd point to the distances between (on a typical keyboard); between FT should be the same as JY; and between FB should be the same as JN. -- But on the traditional row stagger, these distances are absurdly different.
I find it hard to believe that the best arrangement of alphabetical keys would be asymmetrical.
The only reason I bring up `in` and ignore the rest of the keyboard is because `in` is right up there with `th` in terms of frequency. Worsening it has a significant and noticeable effect IMO. Though, I could also point to another reason which might make ortholinear not ideal for some people. Consider the left middle finger column on qwerty: EDC. E is simultaneously the most common letter, and also combines with basically every other letter (consider typing `decided`). It’s very common for qwerty typists to use alternative fingerings to avoid the same finger sequences. Commonly you’ll see index finger used for D and C. An ortholinear layout used with qwerty moves D and C further away from the index finger, making the alternate fingerings more difficult/cramped/impossible.
Tangentially, something I think works in the glove80’s favor however is the scooped design. While `in` is pushed further apart, I imagine that the curvature of the keyboard in utilizing the 3rd dimension helps reduce this distance somewhat.
EDIT: Here’s a video demonstrating someone using an ortholinear keyboard with qwerty at an impressive 170+ wpm: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HHFK-GbECWA Note, my comments above have to do with ergonomics. At the end of the day, ~~honey badger don’t care~~ people adapt, and can sometimes get incredibly efficient using tools with dubious ergonomic value. Compare that video with my own using MTGAP and you can immediately see a difference in finger movement: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Msebf_zNaxY
Not as fast as 170WPM, though. :)
And unlike those other features, there's no downside to making the spacebar smaller. (The only thing I can think of is some people press with their right thumb instead of their left; but, a 2U spacebar would cover that).
(I'd still much rather have a keyboard that's symmetrical and ortho; although I can at least understand that traditional layouts have such a stay that it's only enthusiasts who would use keyboards with these features).
How long it takes to fully and comfortably switch, including all the punctuation characters? Did you also struggle with other keyboards?
I did have some struggling with normal layout after. It sounds silly but after typing almost everyday on monkeytype.com, things (wpm, accuracy, etc) are stable for me.
How long it takes probably depends on the person but I'd say if you actually force yourself to use it you'd probably feel comfortable on it in less than a month. To me it wasn't really much of a choice. It was one of many changes I had to make to help deal with RSI.
A lot of people use standard keyboards their entire life without issue. If you're not experiencing issues with a standard keyboard, why make things harder on yourself than necessary?
I suspect it's difficult for the "quick hunt-and-peck", where your fingers can quickly hunt down the keys on the staggered rows, but aren't trained to follow finger-per-column that the classic touch-typing discipline encourages.
> ... including all the punctuation characters
It's actually not so bad. The symbols associated with 0-9 stay in the same positions as you put 0-9. This leaves `, -=, [], /\. You can put [] near (), or in some other way that makes sense; you can put /\ together. ` I tend to have on a pinky finger. -- Rather, I'd say there are ways of arranging the symbols so that it retains what you're familiar with, or has an improved association to it.
> ... the more I was struggling with more classic ones ...
When I was learning a non-qwerty layout, I struggled using either qwerty or dvorak. Eventually, my motor memory was able to sort it out. -- Although, I think using different layouts on the same keyboard is very confusing.
I’m doing this with a regular mechanical keyboard and a Cantor Remix. QWERTY on the mechanical and laptops, Colemak-DHm on the Cantor.
The physical context seems to help keep the two separated in my subconscious.
After a few weeks I could look away from the screen to have a conversation with a coworker while still typing at full speed and accuracy.
Anyone have tips on getting up to speed with a new keyboard? My productivity drops dramatically every time I’ve tried it. Last time with a Kinesis FreeStyle and I just wasn’t adjusting fast enough.
I’ll take tips on how to adopt an ergonomic mouse too
While I have been eyeing these "cup" style keyboards for years, I feel very hesitant dropping $400 on a keyboard when my Alice is "fine".
Maybe you are right that Alice is a half measure and going full hog is the way, but I could also be spending $400 on a keyboard and another $100 on shipping on import tax just to end up with a keyboard I don't use.
With hot-swap you can just buy a set and if you don't love it you don't need to buy a whole another keyboard.
But I do get that some people know exactly what they want, but I often need couple tries before I get what I like.
(For MX style, I do prefer clicky or tactile).
I gave up on ordering KA360 when I heard from several people that even the wired version was as plagued with issues as the Bluetooth one without in house expertise to resolve it, reliant on contractors.
I've also adjusted to: the Happy Hacking Keyboard diamond-style arrow keys, and the compact-style arrow keys e.g. on laptop keyboards.
Of course the right approach is suggested by the other reply, which is to not be lazy like me (remap keybinds, get vimium, etc.).
I would expect the same to be true, more or less for this keyboard. With the exception of function keys being bigger. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want function keys to not be very easily distinguishable from the rest. At least, in the case of Kinesis, some of them control keyboard's own macros / remapping. Accidentally hitting those might result in an hour long break trying to reprogram the keyboard to do what it used to do before you fat-fingered it to do something stupid.
I found myself having to repeatedly bend and unbend my individual fingers to reach keys. This action is particularly painful for me. On a standard keyboard I can maintain roughly continuous finger curl and move my entire arm at the shoulders only slightly extending the finger I wish to use.
I remain largely unconvinced of the benefits of welled keyboards, since they do seem to increase overall wear on individual fingers.
The solution I found that has actually helped the most is simply using a keyboard with the lowest pressure mushiest rubber domes. For me that has been a keyboard I already owned, a Sun Type 7
I can't imaging going back to a none curved, none orthogonal keyboard.
Anyway, the Glove80 is still really interesting, esp. the various switches and the more affordable price.
I would like to buy one, but I would like to have the option to send it back if I don't like it.
Do you mean failing because the battery is empty? Why not hook it up then and power it through USB? There are handy split cables with which you can hook up both halves in one go. Some people even disconnect the batteries.
Maybe I am wrong but aren't two movable parts a bit annoying as well? My keyboard gets moved on my desk quite a bit and repositioning two moving parts sounds quite tedious...
Hasn't been an issue for me. But you could always fix the distance in some way (3D printed tool, measure the distance and cut out some plastic/papes, etc.). Personally I just put my arms how I find them comfortable and then position the halves to align with that. Takes maybe five seconds.
Compared to the Advantage2, I use a slightly wider separation distance, so it's more comfortable (though the KA2 distance was still ok-ish for me).
I'm in Germany. I found some but they are not for the low profile ones. I found this: https://keycapsss.com/switchestester/switch-tester/174/kailh... but it's sold out.
SplitKB's product page lists 15, and that's not the entire product line:
https://splitkb.com/products/kailh-low-profile-choc-switches
I've typed the last 20 years on the same keyboard and all those "clicky", "linear" etc. things don't mean much to me so I hope to benefit by just testing those different styles to get a feel for it
[0] https://kprepublic.com/en-gb/products/kailh-choc-switch-test...
[1] https://kprepublic.com/en-gb/products/acrylic-switch-tester-...
Example: As noted in the post, some people have a longer middle finger while some have a longer ring finger. The “wingspan” can also vary wildly especially with the wide varieties of height.
I have the same issue with game controllers, so that may be a good indicator of problems with this type of keyboard.
I switch to Dvorak twenty years ago because I wrongly believed it would make me more productive (as if programming is limited by how fast you can type!) but stayed for the ergonomics. I should, by all rights, have terrible RSI due to how I abused my poor upper extremities in my youth but through the mercy of the lord and thanks to a miserable month or so of pecking at letters like a computer illiterate individual until I learned where the (unlabeled) Dvorak keys were, I have no real issues. On days where arthritis kicks in, typing isn’t an undue discomfort thanks to the sane layout of the keys.
eg. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/the-l...
I suppose QWERTY could very well be incidentally terrible rather than intentionally so (the keyboard travel in comparison to other layouts is genuinely worse).
https://workmanlayout.org/#tests-using-popular-books
Now, this is a site extolling the virtues of yet another layout, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but the methodology seems sound to me. (Though I used Workman in the past, I've since moved to Colemak due to a combination of it being built-in to Apple OSs and my dislike of the "ly" digram being on the same finger in Workman, plus some other factors.)
Even though Dvorak is the "least efficient" of the three QWERTY alternatives measured, it's still over a 40% reduction in finger travel distance compared to QWERTY. "Distance traveled" is obviously not the sole factor in ergonomics, but it's equally obviously a big one.
Or better yet see a physiotherapist. The most important thing is not to ignore any tingling, numbness etc. That's a warning sign of RSI. Believe me it's better to address it early.
Love my Space65.
I'm really glad I took the plunge and switched to a keyboard that I could program to move the action away from my pinkies (I moved the character blocks outward and got real creative with the two new columns between g and h).
Had I waited longer I think it would've gradually dampened my enthusiasm for code, just by association.
In my opinion rectangular keyboards aren't good enough at all. They're uncomfortable and bad for your wrists, and the only reason people are using them are because: they don't know any better, computers (laptops), by default, come with rectangular keyboards, force of habit, the cost involved with buying another keyboard or having durable wrists/being young and not suffering from deteriorating body.
I started using Microsoft Natural Keyboards mid 90s, and moved onto Arisu layout mechanical keyboards a few years back when I first learned they were an option. They are so much more comfortable than rectangular keyboards. It's not even close, even without all the customization options available for switches, keycaps, tenting, etc.
I don't understand why this is so freaking hard to find.
Kinesis had the Free Style 2 keyboard[1] that you had to go out of the way to buy a vertical stand with, and it has been my go to keyboard FOR YEARS now because I just can't find any alternatives.
I used to use the Kinesis Advantage keyboards, but they mess with my carpal tunnel. As cool as they are the plastic placement for the wrist rests still mess with you. It's awful if you have carpal tunnel. And yes, everyone is saying they help, but they're still sources of aggravation because you are wresting your wrists on the plastic and compressing them. And yes, you can get some pads, but that really doesn't change the system.
I just want some g- d- vertical keyboards. And no one makes them with good layouts.
I got this crazy battlestation vertical keyboard from Safe Type [2] and I freaking HATED it because their layout puts a bunch of keys in the middle and there's an insane F-row keyset that requires me to move my hands all over the place. It's ridiculous!
How hard is it to get a vertical keyboard with a good keyboard layout?! I'm so scared my free style 2 is going to fail and I'm going to have to go back to a world with terrible keyboards. I even e-mailed Kinesis asking if they were going to go the same route of vertical keyboards and they refuse to. I'm dying here.
At this point I would love if someone made keyboard gloves that let me put them on and wear them to type so I don't have to compress any nerves, but I doubt that will ever happen. I feel like I'm nuts.
It might have been a Keytronic, but I've slept since then.
I went through some ergonomics research and they suggest that lower angles are better than completely vertical. It differs per paper, but most comfortable angle in group studies seems to be somewhere between 20 and 45 degrees if I remember correctly (I’d have to dig up the papers again).
Oh, there's your reason right there. As an Apple user, I'd never try and do my programming on their keyboards.
look at the tap strap