Comment by tomp | Hacker News Reader

Comment by tomp | Hacker News Reader

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Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments).

Asking her to take notes (as in, not asking anyone else), though, is a completely different story. However, I believe that some women handle it in a not very effective way. I might be a sexist too! If you tell me in a nice way (simply saying that you think what is going on is wrong/unfair) I will reflect, and most likely change my behaviour in the future. However, if you attack me, or even worse, say nothing but rant on the internet, I will take it personally, as an attack on my identity, and I might refuse to change, out of principle.

What we're trying to do here is enlighten a certain aspect of our society that is wrong/unjust, and I believe that should be done by teaching people, not attacking them.

(I'm not saying that the OP definitely took the wrong path. She might have told her boss, and they did nothing different, they didn't learn. In that case, I see no better option but to attack, shame them...)

Physical appraisals of another person's attractiveness do not belong in the work place. It puts people in awkward positions, and introduces power asymmetries.

And yes, I do not want people at work to say such things about me, regardless of gender.

Well, I differ there. If someone gives me a compliment, I appreciate it. Usually it is about a hair cut, or a choice piece of clothing. I never took it as a sexual advance. However your post bring up an important subject.

There are differing opinions here. Why is one opinion more justified than the other in the work place? For example: Why should I not be able to give a genuine complement about let say a woman's shoes? The work place is so filled with terror to the point where some companies policies are that a member of the same sex must be present to do simple coaching tasks. Is this not absolutely ridiculous?

"Attractiveness" implies compliments that are suggestive. But, personally, I veer away from anything along those lines because I do not know what my colleagues are comfortable with. It is not my place to assume.

There's quite a difference between complimenting someone's shoes vs. saying she looks cute.

Would you feel the same if someone said, "nice haircut" vs. "you look cute with your new haircut"? I highly doubt it. And further, try imagining it coming from differing genders, and differing sexualities.

One of the compliments objectifies, and that is why it doesn't belong in the workplace.

Out of curiosity, what do you think about appraisals of a person's other qualities? Maybe it's because I'm bad at the whole compliment business anyway, but I'd rather have a female coworker notice that I've started going to the gym (harmless, fun) than to be called smart or a good organizer (ohmygod this actually matters at work, power games!!).

You have to consider the power imbalance due to gender norms. In our culture, men typically pursue women romantically. This is not always the case, but it is the norm. Hence, in a social setting where it is acceptable to pursue someone romantically, a woman complimenting a man's appearance has the implied meaning "I would be receptive to your romantic advances." [1]

However, in the same social setting, when a man compliments a woman's appearance, the implied meaning is "I am pursuing you romantically." And this is fine in social settings, otherwise our species would die off.

But it's not fine in the work place. You feel that a woman at work giving you such a compliment is "harmless fun" because if it was a normal social situation, you would have the power: it's up to you to pursue. But for many women it is not "harmless fun" because it's similar to the social situation, and they feel romantically pursued, which is not okay at work.

[1] Please note I do not consider this a promise, so let's not confuse this with "asking for it." Human communication is subtle, and such implications are how consensual "courtship" happen. Of course, once there is a rejection, whatever implications one thought were there don't matter.

"I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list)."

Why is it that straight guys have to state the obvious whenever they talk about other men? I tell ya, being a gay nerd, in a company full of "straight" nerds, is like being in the gym; watching the bodybuilders do cartwheels, trying to convince their "buds" they aren't gay for checking out that guy who walked by.

I hear borderline homophobic remarks all day. Like the ever popular, "Gay" or "That's gay". Which applies to practically anything that doesn't go their way ("Gay" has replaced the 80's term "weak").

I was in the Army for 10 years (Ranger for 6 of those years). I have a picture of me sitting on a tank, eating MRE's. Sometimes I turn it facing out. A gentle reminder to anyone walking into my office, who the "real" man is. ;)

>Why not? If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it (I'm not gay, not trying to seduce him, but being fit is very high on my values list). If a woman (fellow coworker) is cute, I say it (I'm not trying to seduce her, I just think it's nice to give compliments).

What about if a man has a nice bulge in his pants? Will you compliment him on that too? Because a reference to a low cut top is a reference to what lies under the top, and I'm not talking biceps. The male equivalent would be a not so subtle compliment on his penis.

Incorrect. Cleavage is socially acceptable. Having a bit of my penis sticking out of my pants is not.

I'm not talking about sticking out of your pants. I'm talking about a nice tight pair that shows off your 'assets'.

If a man (fellow coworker) has nice biceps, I say it

As a man who values fitness, I would be really freaked out if you, as a coworker, complimented my biceps.

If you merely asked about fitness, it would be fine. Commenting on my appearance (beyond, "hey, you have a piece of toilet paper stuck to your face") isn't what I consider appropriate to the workplace.

As a person with (perhaps incorrect) assumptions about the normal locations for toilet paper to end up, I have to ask: has someone ever had to tell you you had toilet paper stuck to your face? If so...

Why?

Toilet paper is a classic technique for treating nicks from razors.

It was merely an example. I have, at various times, had a variety of substances accidentally adhered to my face, head, or clothing. Pointing out something which is obviously unintentionally out of place is much appreciated. Making value judgments on appearance is not.

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